[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Early US buyers could possibly lose out on port install, if that is even possible with all the parts. Still not confirmed.

Yea I understand... And I hope my comment doesn't come across harshly. I'm just thinking this through.

For the sake of this post I'm putting aside the carbon roof panel. That part is uniquely different than others.

I think I'd prefer to have every other one of these parts delivered to me separately from my car. This would enable me to sell the take-off parts. These are really just high-end (reference-standard?) aftermarket parts available from the factory. Granted- my background may make me a fringe example, but I don't think twice about installing parts after I take delivery of my car. These are no different.

Edit: I guess people with leases would need to have these parts installed upon delivery? (I never lease)

[seis-speed]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

it's how I got a 1M...

BMW said for years.. no M car... No M car..., no M car.. and then....

BMW says no M2 CS(L)... or.. at least.. no comment...

Personally.. " I'll be gone til November.. " and will see what vehicles and transmissions options show up in BMW VIN databases by then.
If nothing comes out.. I will keep my 1M and probably build a full track car (Spec E46 or something) over the winter to run next year.
If an M2 further progress with a 6MT comes out... then I will be interested.
If an M2 further progress with a DCT only comes out.... I will be looking for an X3M to use as a tow vehicle/daily driver.

If the M2C were 55kgs less do you buy a 6MT Comp? Excited for comp, but a little unsettled about the weight, TBH.

[bunnyhive]

Originally Posted by seis-speed

If the M2C were 55kgs less do you buy a 6MT Comp? Excited for comp, but a little unsettled about the weight, TBH.

irritated by M2C's weight to place an order as well... in logic, ppl go for a smaller car desire nimbleness via less weigh but BMW think otherwise.


and to think ppl r sold for factory backed performance elements is to have installation quality assurance in mind... that somehow BMW think not again


nevertheless, m sure if market is underwhelmed, they ll push out lightweight factory installed CF editions in no time

[adc]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

depends on how much BMW has been listening regarding transmission..

It’s not that. It’s that the M2 has the highest manual transmission take rate of any M car. Almost half the customers order the manual if I remember the stats correctly.

It would be financially dangerous for BMW to ignore this simple fact and not offer it in whatever mysterious M2 CS will be announced in November.


If this wonder model happens with a manual tranny, I’ll seek one next year after the furor dies down a bit.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by adc

It’s not that. It’s that the M2 has the highest manual transmission take rate of any M car. Almost half the customers order the manual if I remember the stats correctly.

It would be financially dangerous for BMW to ignore this simple fact and not offer it in whatever mysterious M2 CS will be announced in November.


If this wonder model happens with a manual tranny, I’ll seek one next year after the furor dies down a bit.

I like that you are being optimistic.

[adc]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

I like that you are being optimistic.

Well there will always be the a la carte ordering option...

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by adc

Well there will always be the a la carte ordering option...

CS models are about a 50% increase on base msrp. Hypothetically a M2 CS could start around $85k. Question will be, at that point are you better off using the additional $25-30k on a M2C and Mperf parts? Could you essentially build a sudo CS/CSL with oem parts for less money?

[adc]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

CS models are about a 50% increase on base msrp. Hypothetically a M2 CS could start around $85k. Question will be, at that point are you better off using the additional $25-30k on a M2C and Mperf parts? Could you essentially build a sudo CS/CSL with oem parts for less money?

In terms of performance, absolutely yes. In terms of desirability or resale value, no.

For ex. Junking the standard seats in favor of a nice set of Sparcos or similar gets you all the weight saving of those CF bits, at a fraction of the cost.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by adc

In terms of performance, absolutely yes. In terms of desirability or resale value, no.

For ex. Junking the standard seats in favor of a nice set of Sparcos or similar gets you all the weight saving of those CF bits, at a fraction of the cost.

I was talking about oem parts only, so it is more oem+...rather than some tuner car. The M4 GTS values have plummeted, let’s see what the CS badge does in a couple years.

[Poochie]

BMW make great cars but they choose to over-saturate the market with different vehicles, which forces each car by itself to not retain much value and prestige, as it once did.

My automotive-illiterate friend was car shopping for entry-level luxury vehicle and I suggested a 4 series, when he said that "I don't a want BMW, everybody has one. I see dozens of them everyday." That's when I realized that he's right; BMWs are as common as Hondas now. Even the more expensive used Ms are being driven by college aged kids, with generous parents..

So my motto is buy the M2 or M2C because you're passionate about the actual product, and don't bank on turning a profit in the end; much like everything else that's made today, they're just disposable consumer products, not investments..

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

CS models are about a 50% increase on base msrp. Hypothetically a M2 CS could start around $85k. Question will be, at that point are you better off using the additional $25-30k on a M2C and Mperf parts? Could you essentially build a sudo CS/CSL with oem parts for less money?

No matter what, the "M2C turned pseudo M2 variant" will still miss approx. 40 M ponies and risks to be rather considered a 'hello car' or 'high low car', than a 'halo car'.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by Artemis

No matter what, the "M2C turned pseudo M2 variant" will still miss approx. 40 M ponies and risks to be rather considered a 'hello car' or 'high low car', than a 'halo car'.

Don't forget "heavy load car".

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Tag

Don't forget "heavy load car".

How much lighter would a CS be compared to a M2C with all Mperf bits that reduce weight. I would guess not much at all.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Artemis

No matter what, the "M2C turned pseudo M2 variant" will still miss approx. 40 M ponies and risks to be rather considered a 'hello car' or 'high low car', than a 'halo car'.

Does it come with the halo car depreciation? M4 GTS values have dropped over 30% since launch. In the US they sit on lots collecting dust at $90k.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Artemis

No matter what, the "M2C turned pseudo M2 variant" will still miss approx. 40 M ponies and risks to be rather considered a 'hello car' or 'high low car', than a 'halo car'.

I don't wanna call it "hate" so I'm gonna use the word "pessimism". Why are you so "pessimistic" about M2C? Since M2C was first introduced, I have seen several posts by you making fun of the sound, weight, the muffler etc almost implying M2C is a failure. However, I'm not going to copy/paste here how in every opportunity you post your hilarious memes or jokes about those aspects of the car since you are very good at keeping track of posts historically as a mod in general. Do you realize that the car you keep raving about and look forward to (M2 CS/L) will share the same engine as M2C and will sound just as bad? Or do you realize that the light weight parts which will be standard on M2 CS/L are already available for M2C? In other words, one can build their own M2 CS/L without having to wait for an unknown date. Or do you realize M2C is much closer to an M2 CS/L than an N55 M2 will ever be? So why all this "pessimism" about M2C? Honestly, I have seen quite a few shit talking from you regarding the sound, weight, how muffler etc. and as I said, there is a good chance that the car you are patiently waiting for is probably gonna feature some of these aspects as well. Now you may say those posts were friendly jokes or funny memes but I still consider them as "shit talk" since I have seen you post the same stuff several times. It's just disappointing for me to see that type of behavior from a moderator of this forum.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Does it come with the halo car depreciation? M4 GTS values have dropped over 30% since launch. In the US they sit on lots collecting dust at $90k.

My dealer has an M4 GTS in his showroom. "We hope that someday someone will buy it". I gave it a closer look when I took delivery of my M2 back in April 2016. Last time I passed, it was still sitting there. He also has an E90 M3 CRT that's been taking dust in the showroom since a looong time. Only 67 were built, but no-one's interested to take it off his hands. Lots of alternatives for those prices.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by cntzl

I don't wanna call it "hate" so I'm gonna use the word "pessimism". Why are you so "pessimistic" about M2C? Since M2C was first introduced, I have seen several posts by you making fun of the sound, weight, the muffler etc almost implying M2C is a failure. However, I'm not going to copy/paste here how in every opportunity you post your hilarious memes or jokes about those aspects of the car since you are very good at keeping track of posts historically as a mod in general. Do you realize that the car you keep raving about and look forward to (M2 CS/L) will share the same engine as M2C and will sound just as bad? Or do you realize that the light weight parts which will be standard on M2 CS/L are already available for M2C? In other words, one can build their own M2 CS/L without having to wait for an unknown date. Or do you realize M2C is much closer to an M2 CS/L than an N55 M2 will ever be? So why all this "pessimism" about M2C? Honestly, I have seen quite a few shit talking from you regarding the sound, weight, how muffler etc. and as I said, there is a good chance that the car you are patiently waiting for is probably gonna feature some of these aspects as well. Now you may say those posts were friendly jokes or funny memes but I still consider them as "shit talk" since I have seen you post the same stuff several times. It's just disappointing for me to see that type of behavior from a moderator of this forum.

First and foremost: I respect your point of view, but I don't share it.

IMHO you missed the point of the message that I tried to get across with my post. Forum fellow BlackJetE90 asked whether you could essentially build a "pseudo CS/CSL" with OEM parts for less money ? If BMW releases a hardcore M2 variant in 2019/2020, then there's a good chance that it will become a so-called halo car (chassis, size, agility, putting power down, cool kid with cool kit, hype, etc.). The highly successful M2 and all-new M2 Competition offer good ingredients for creating a halo car. Bottom-line of my comment: feel free to modify your car with whatever car part or 'tune' achieving whatever 'stage', to mimic a top dog model in terms of looks and power, but IMHO you should never consider or present your tuned car to be the top dog model. Hence BlackJetE90 righteously coined the term "pseudo" - it will never be what it tries to mimic. And that's why I commented:

Originally Posted by Artemis

No matter what, the "M2C turned pseudo M2 variant" will still miss approx. 40 M ponies and risks to be rather considered a 'hello car' or 'high low car', than a 'halo car'.

But to avoid any misunderstanding: to all tuning aficionados out there: enjoy - if you're happy with it, then I'm happy for you.

On "realizing that light-weight parts which will be standard on M2 CS/L are already available for M2C". Wait, let's play the record from the first track to the last one, rather than the other way around: what if those light-weight parts have been developed in the first place for a hardcore M2 variant, but, as that project was 'halted' late 2017, those R&D'd parts are now released as M2 Competition M Performance Parts: parts for the people, rather than parts for the privileged ? Sounds too looney to ever cross your mind ? For the rest: if you push the pause button on a player, all it takes is pushing the play button at the time you deem convenient to resume the movie or track.

On "making fun of the sound, weight, the muffler etc.". Over the past few years I've been following a bit the development and release of the M2, and subsequently the development and release of the M2 Competition. I made some posts about my findings and thoughts. Posts ranging from pretty serious to divertimento. As I am in no way affiliated to BMW, I can freely express my points of view, objective and subjective: comments that BMW may like or dislike. So I take it as a compliment that you understand some of my comments as criticizing BMW. I respect BMW and I'm a BMW enthusiast (who happens to buy their cars), but I ain't a BMW puppet. I cherish freedom of speech. Should I be denied that: why does it hurt when my heart misses the beat ?

On "almost implying M2C is a failure", "pessimism", "hate" and "shit talk": don't say things that I never said or "almost implied". And should you reply that it's more subtly phrased or presented: alike you, I am entitled to my point of view (which includes my personal conviction that I consider the M2 Competition to be 'further progress' and by no means "a failure"). I didn't unconditionally 'pedestal'-ify the oldskool M2 either: if there was something I mind(ed), I commented about it too (poor dashboard readability in low-light conditions, tiny OBC speedometer, side mirrors, etc.). We're a pretty demanding community: the M2 is for most everyday people no cheap car, so we may reasonably expect some quality standards. And look, BMW addressed as good as all criticism (what you call "shit talk") with the M2 LCI and M2 Competition.

On being a moderator and its responsibilities. Each of us got its style of expressing views. So do I. Some time ago Bimmerpost made me a moderator. Then a couple of things can happen: either you suddenly take yourself very serious, pray every night some Bavarian Oktoberfest verses on your knees in front of a BMW shrine with your hand solemnly on your car manual, limit your comments to a minimum and empty now and then some chambers of the sheriff's gun when rogue comments surface, or you continue the familiar way as before (OK, occasionally with some reluctance if deemed appropriate). I prefer the latter. After all, this is a forum, no science board. Everyone can voice his/her opinion. So do I. I see no reason to censor myself in poking fun at, for example, BMW marketing. And, true that it happens that I'm having a go at it with some picture or meme, but the bulk of my comments is more technical, exchanging thoughts and information. And let's reduce all that joker emphasis to its limited proportions: look, I ain't here for entertainment. I'm here to learn from all of you, enjoying conversations with people from all over the world about topics that interest you and me.

There's a French saying "Il n'y a que la vérité qui blesse" = "Only the truth hurts". If I screw up, feel free to joke about it. If it's a fact that BMW releases a new M2 dubbed with a funky race-track evocative "Competition" name and it turns out to weigh more than its predecessor, then is it sacrilege to poke fun about that ? Why do some people nervously start shoving their chairs when you point out that the M2 Competition features a muffler that looks as if the car dropped its balls and that the Otto Testicle Filter may muffle 'by nature' the exhaust sound a little more than the oldskool M2 ? And while we're at it, let's also tackle the never ending debate (feud?) of N55 versus S55 and the Teutonic pecking order. Very sensitive. Divisive. And often emotionally-driven by the very engine that sports your personal car. Lots of subjective, pointless discussions ("N55 M2 = no real M engine"), stirring up other people. DNA: the S55 is a reworked N55. BMW crossed the Styx and offered an S55 M2 (but removed a few muscles) and by doing so, gave an interesting twist to the old debate and pecking order discussions.

Trust me, if I wouldn't like the sound of the possible hardcore M2 variant (if that car is ever released), I will not refrain from saying it. After all, isn't letting your mind speak freely (regardless whether the quod plerumque fit of the M2 community shares or disputes your point of view) more honorable than to simply 'parrot' BMW marketing speak ?

True that organizations / communities require structure. But, dammit, poking fun now and then can blow some fresh air through the corridors of seriousness and boredom.

[Poochie]

@Artemis


I believe that you're an objective moderator and most importantly you share a lot important details we can't find elsewhere! That's why I'm here really, for the information and not all the other BS and personal feelings attached to a screen name of a person I didn't know existed, outside of my phone.

I don't envy your job; you basically have to separate the pearls of information amongst the swine.. And you do a good job balancing it. There isn't anything wrong with also having an opinion and being a little tongue-in-cheek every once in awhile to break the monotony..

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Artemis

First and foremost: I respect your point of view, but I don't share it.

IMHO you missed the point of the message that I tried to get across with my post. Forum fellow BlackJetE90 asked whether you could essentially build a "pseudo CS/CSL" with OEM parts for less money ? If BMW releases a hardcore M2 variant in 2019/2020, then there's a good chance that it will become a so-called halo car (chassis, size, agility, putting power down, cool kid with cool kit, hype, etc.). The highly successful M2 and all-new M2 Competition offer good ingredients for creating a halo car. Bottom-line of my comment: feel free to modify your car with whatever car part or 'tune' achieving whatever 'stage', to mimic a top dog model in terms of looks and power, but IMHO you should never consider or present your tuned car to be the top dog model. Hence BlackJetE90 righteously coined the term "pseudo" - it will never be what it tries to mimic. And that's why I commented:

But to avoid any misunderstanding: to all tuning aficionados out there: enjoy - if you're happy with it, then I'm happy for you.

On "realizing that light-weight parts which will be standard on M2 CS/L are already available for M2C". Wait, let's play the record from the first track to the last one, rather than the other way around: what if those light-weight parts have been developed in the first place for a hardcore M2 variant, but, as that project was 'halted' late 2017, those R&D'd parts are now released as M2 Competition M Performance Parts: parts for the people, rather than parts for the privileged ? Sounds too looney to ever cross your mind ? For the rest: if you push the pause button on a player, all it takes is pushing the play button at the time you deem convenient to resume the movie or track.

On "making fun of the sound, weight, the muffler etc.". Over the past few years I've been following a bit the development and release of the M2, and subsequently the development and release of the M2 Competition. I made some posts about my findings and thoughts. Posts ranging from pretty serious to divertimento. As I am in no way affiliated to BMW, I can freely express my points of view, objective and subjective: comments that BMW may like or dislike. So I take it as a compliment that you understand some of my comments as criticizing BMW. I respect BMW and I'm a BMW enthusiast (who happens to buy their cars), but I ain't a BMW puppet. I cherish freedom of speech. Should I be denied that: why does it hurt when my heart misses the beat ?

On "almost implying M2C is a failure", "pessimism", "hate" and "shit talk": don't say things that I never said or "almost implied". And should you reply that it's more subtly phrased or presented: alike you, I am entitled to my point of view (which includes my personal conviction that I consider the M2 Competition to be 'further progress' and by no means "a failure"). I didn't unconditionally 'pedestal'-ify the oldskool M2 either: if there was something I mind(ed), I commented about it too (poor dashboard readability in low-light conditions, tiny OBC speedometer, side mirrors, etc.). We're a pretty demanding community: the M2 is for most everyday people no cheap car, so we may reasonably expect some quality standards. And look, BMW addressed as good as all criticism (what you call "shit talk") with the M2 LCI and M2 Competition.

On being a moderator and its responsibilities. Each of us got its style of expressing views. So do I. Some time ago Bimmerpost made me a moderator. Then a couple of things can happen: either you suddenly take yourself very serious, pray every night some Bavarian Oktoberfest verses on your knees in front of a BMW shrine with your hand solemnly on your car manual, limit your comments to a minimum and empty now and then some chambers of the sheriff's gun when rogue comments surface, or you continue the familiar way as before (OK, occasionally with some reluctance if deemed appropriate). I prefer the latter. After all, this is a forum, no science board. Everyone can voice his/her opinion. So do I. I see no reason to censor myself in poking fun at, for example, BMW marketing. And, true that it happens that I'm having a go at it with some picture or meme, but the bulk of my comments is more technical, exchanging thoughts and information. And let's reduce all that joker emphasis to its limited proportions: look, I ain't here for entertainment. I'm here to learn from all of you, enjoying conversations with people from all over the world about topics that interest you and me.

There's a French saying "Il n'y a que la vérité qui blesse" = "Only the truth hurts". If I screw up, feel free to joke about it. If it's a fact that BMW releases a new M2 dubbed with a funky race-track evocative "Competition" name and it turns out to weigh more than its predecessor, then is it sacrilege to poke fun about that ? Why do some people nervously start shoving their chairs when you point out that the M2 Competition features a muffler that looks as if the car dropped its balls and that the Otto Testicle Filter may muffle 'by nature' the exhaust sound a little more than the oldskool M2 ? And while we're at it, let's also tackle the never ending debate (feud?) of N55 versus S55 and the Teutonic pecking order. Very sensitive. Divisive. And often emotionally-driven by the very engine that sports your personal car. Lots of subjective, pointless discussions ("N55 M2 = no real M engine"), stirring up other people. DNA: the S55 is a reworked N55. BMW crossed the Styx and offered an S55 M2 (but removed a few muscles) and by doing so, gave an interesting twist to the old debate and pecking order discussions.

Trust me, if I wouldn't like the sound of the possible hardcore M2 variant (if that car is ever released), I will not refrain from saying it. After all, isn't letting your mind speak freely (regardless whether the quod plerumque fit of the M2 community shares or disputes your point of view) more honorable than to simply 'parrot' BMW marketing speak ?

True that organizations / communities require structure. But, dammit, poking fun now and then can blow some fresh air through the corridors of seriousness and boredom.

The same way you think I missed the point of your posts, I think you missed the point of mine as well. No one is asking or expecting you to like or adore the M2C. Of course you are free to express your opnion just like everyone else. However, I can show you more than 10+ occasions where I believe you "expressing your opinion" were more inline with "talking shit". When someone says anything negative about N55 owners or N55 itself, everyone loses their mind and get into such a defensive mode. On the other hand, when the opposite happens against S55, we say "oh, everyone is expressing their opinions" and that type posts (including some of yours) receive a lot of support from mostly current M2 owners(I wonder why). This is a public forum and couldn't care less how far fans of each side go at their pissing contest. However, when I see the same attitude from a mod, it just makes me question how objective they are. Again, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong saying M2C sounds bad, has extra weight, or doesn't look as good as the outgoing model. When you make the same joke multiple times, it almost sound like you are trying to prove a point to the future owners or trying to make them feel bad about their purchase. This is something I wouldn't expect from a mod, hence my disappointment.

Just imagine if we had a mod occasionally throwing shit at the base M2 on their forum. How would those owners feel about that moderator? We already have too many people on each side talking shit about both cars and when there is a mod doing a similar thing, it almost feels like encouraging that type of behavior.

There is no doubt about how much value you bring to this forum. My post was meant to express my observations and criticism, and I'm still behind what I said.

[boostspoon]

Artemis You provide great insight and information on this forum and you also do a great wealth of work with organizing sub-forums. People here find that respectable and your opinions are also cherished. However, I'm with cntzl that some of your memes doesn't help the divide between M2 and M2C folks. It actually adds fire and encourages that type of expression. Is there not a problem here that needs to be solved?

[Blackfield]

With all these talks about M2 CS, has it been confirmed? Looking at ynguldyn's Intel page, I only see a confirmation that M2 CSL exists however I can't seem to find additional info about it.

[Mosely]

Are the M2C mirrors simply caps on the old style or totally redesigned? Anyone who's seen both in person want to weigh in?