04-16-2020, 03:46 PM | #551 |
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Not the chassis brace...but the structural brace in front of the radiator. The top portion can be seen through the grill(perhaps it is called a chassis brace??). Mishimoto would require us M2 folk to hack that up. Plastic is one thing, but that....
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04-16-2020, 04:14 PM | #552 | |
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If that’s the only issue, Evo 3 it is. No one has been able to confirm this for the M2, yet. |
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04-16-2020, 04:37 PM | #553 |
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04-16-2020, 04:58 PM | #554 |
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Not this again. Way too many variables to make a blanket statement like that.
If both types are sized appropriately for a specific use, it takes longer for bar & plate to heat up and cool down than tube & fin. That’s good for highway passes and drag racing, not constant circuit racing. That said, Evo2 needs to be bigger if you’re running a Stg 2 tuned car hard on track in the middle of summer, and is why some of the larger and heavier bar & plates can perform a little better. But in general tube & fin is lighter and cools off quicker than bar & plate between corners. So, if the Evo3 is large enough, it’ll perform better than bar & plate on a circuit track. Last edited by ZM2; 04-16-2020 at 05:33 PM.. |
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04-17-2020, 12:11 AM | #555 | |||
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No, apparently the inherent design of a bar and plate means that it has less thermal capacity. http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...p-intercooler/ Quote:
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Last edited by AmuroRay; 04-17-2020 at 12:18 AM.. |
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04-17-2020, 03:55 AM | #556 |
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For the Wagner IC Evo 3 you need to cut the brace, see enclosed pdf. For this reason I can not use this IC, as my car has the oil cooler in that place
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04-17-2020, 09:08 AM | #557 | |
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The extra thermal mass and weight of bar and plate is a two-edged sword. Good: If it is already cool, it takes longer to heat up than tube fin. That’s an advantage if you’re doing a few highway passes, drag race, etc. Bad: Once it gets hot it takes longer to cool off than tube fin. That’s a disadvantage any time you’re in a constant on/off heat generation scenario such as circuit racing. And a bar plate def performs worse in the kind of stop go traffic we have around here where you can sit still for 10min. Any cooled thermal mass in a bar plate will be long gone and then will perform worse than tube fin which will cool off much quicker once the car moves and air starts to flow. If the Evo3 is large enough to dissipate heat for someone’s particular use, it will be better for circuit racing than bar plate, as it will cool off faster bn on/off WOT applications, albeit it is more expensive. Last edited by ZM2; 04-17-2020 at 09:51 AM.. |
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04-17-2020, 09:12 AM | #558 |
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04-17-2020, 10:29 AM | #559 | |
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Your own recent experience showed you this - your Intercooler WE2, reached it maximum thermal capacity and it’s effectiveness reduced. A better, larger IC may have not been limited in the same scenario. Handwaving physics aside won’t change what’s fact. If you watch the video, you’ll also see why ER went with a taller vs wider design (and why it cools better than other brands) ER also states that they went with a Bar and Plate over a tube and fin because it performs better. Here is a bar and plate vs tube and fin - lower Iats and just as quick recovery https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971 RMP used a Mishimoto on their race car, stating that the spacing between the radiator and intercooler provided extra cooling head room. But they are using bar and plate. https://m.facebook.com/pg/RMP-Motors...2263226/posts/ What I didn’t find, is an example of a Tube and fin being selected over bar and plate for competition use. I’m not saying I’m definitively right, but I haven’t seen anything else that says otherwise |
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04-17-2020, 11:07 AM | #560 | |
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This is simply about performing a correctly designed experiment, which cannot be done with all the different products on the market and all the different setups we all have and how we all use our cars differently. That’s why we’re not each choosing the same IC to go with, there isn’t a simple this one is better than that one. If you use a bar plate and tube fin with the same heat rejection capacity in the same situation, they have the pros & cons I listed above bc of their designs. Period. The Evo2 isn’t enough for my setup and tune and use case of running full tilt on track on 90F+ days for an entire tank of gas (45min), but it’s plenty large for most guys’ use on here. If the Evo3 has enough heat rejection capacity for my needs, it will be a better performer on track than bar plate bc it will cool quicker between WOT applications, esp after the IC gets hot in the first 15min. Last edited by ZM2; 04-17-2020 at 11:24 AM.. |
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04-17-2020, 11:28 AM | #561 |
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VRSF 5" Intercooler HD
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Check out our current sale by clicking on this link!
https://x-ph.com/sale/ Phone number 702-494-9435 |
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04-17-2020, 11:43 AM | #562 | |||
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The Mishimotto intercooler was used on an N55 powered car (F30?) Quote:
DO88 webpage compares their intercooler vs the Wagner - per their data, it cools better. The ATM per the data we have, cools better. The VRSF cools better Per A race shop, a channel on physics - and actual data - ALL of them say a tube and fin is inferior from a design perspective. Quote:
That’s not backed up by data. I’m absolutely interested in seeing someone try the Evo 3 vs the VRSF race or ER unit thought. Last edited by AmuroRay; 04-18-2020 at 05:20 PM.. |
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04-17-2020, 12:14 PM | #564 | |
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[QUOTE=AmuroRay;26061056]I’m not. The ATM vs Evo 2 was in a f series chassis. The comment about the ER intercooler is on ER’s webpage description about their N55 F series intercooler.
The Mishimotto intercooler was used on an N55 powered car (F30?) Quote:
You thru out a blanket statement that bar plate is better than tube fin, which isn’t true. They are simply too different types of heat exchangers that have pros & cons that benefit users in different ways. Then you keep giving examples of all these different sized intercoolers and different tests. In this case the best test of bar plate vs tube fin would be comparing the Comp and non-Comp versions of Wagner. Similar size, different exchanger style. The Comp (tube fin) will be lighter and recover quicker once hot than non-Comp (bar plate). Does the 19lb Evo2 Comp perform as well as the larger and heavier bar plate IC’s you keep mentioning? Not under extreme use situations. Will the larger heavier Evo3 perform better than all the larger heavier bar plate IC’s you’ve mentioned? We don’t know yet, but I’m guessing yes simply from the Evo 2 vs Evo 3 data that Wagner posted—there’s a huge increase in cooling capacity, and because it’s tube fin it will recover quicker than bar plate once hot. Last edited by ZM2; 04-17-2020 at 12:24 PM.. |
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04-17-2020, 12:45 PM | #565 | |
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[QUOTE=ZM2;26061267]
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You can’t call me misinformed when there is literally 2 comparison (ATM, DO88), and a write up from 2 different manufacturers (ER being one) stating that Bar and Plate is better for cooling than a tube and fin. Tube and fine are also less expensive to make - so you would think that more manufactures would make one if they were superior- instead only 1 brand exist for the F series. Just because the ‘perfect’ match up doesn’t exist doesn’t mean you can hand wave all the evidence you don’t agree with. Let the myth of ‘tube and fin recovers faster’ be dispelled from this message board until someone can PROVE IT. Until then, the Competition line should not be a consideration to ANYONE who tracks their car. |
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04-17-2020, 01:06 PM | #566 | |
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[QUOTE=AmuroRay;26061428]
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In my specific situation I’ve run bar plate and tube fin and have logs showing much quicker recovery with tube fin. I don’t have time to dig those up at this very instant, but other guys have recorded the same. Am I going to switch from Evo 2 Comp to a larger heavier bar plate that has at most 10F better IATs on track? No. The IAT gain doesn’t make a difference in daily driving, and I run E30-45 on track so the impacts of timing pull in a 10F IAT difference are near negligible. I’m waiting to see a bigger performance jump than 10F and the Evo 3 looks to be it. |
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04-18-2020, 01:39 PM | #568 |
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04-18-2020, 02:32 PM | #569 | |
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there is a thread named "slim edition M2" I recently deleted front oil cooler and front support water cooler, to open air flow for brake cooling. Replaced water cooler by d088 cooler, and oil cooler moved up to frontside. Until now works quite well, but we have not had high temps here. |
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04-18-2020, 02:41 PM | #570 |
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So, I spent quite a bit of time this morning going thru a crap ton of logs (you’re welcome). There are two sets of logs with the Dinan IC (bar plate) and one set with the Evo2 Comp (tube fin) below.
The environmental and use differences between the logs should heavily assist the Dinan: ambient temps are much colder in one set, and pulls are only halfway into 4th gear in the other. For the Evo2 log, I didn’t start the recording until having already completed many pulls so the IC is already nice and hot at the start of the log, and most of the pulls are all the way thru 4th. So, this is not fair bc in normal daily driving before doing pulls I would consistently see IATs 10-20F cooler with the Evo2 as a starting point. Outcome: When singling out similar types of pulls to review IAT rise, the Wagner increases are lower. You can also see this in the general overall IAT temp line trend increasing over time with the Dinan. The basically shows that the Wagner has more cooling capacity than the Dinan, which I don’t think is a shocker to anyone here. As for recovery, both ICs reduced temps around 10F between pulls going halfway into 4th. The Wagner recovered a little more when doing pulls all the way thru 4th. Would a larger bar plate have performed better than the Dinan? Yes. Would the Evo 2 have shown even better recovery if I had started logging the earlier pulls? Probably. So, which is better, tube fin or bar plate? Inconclusive! These logs are exactly what I mean that you cannot throw out a blanket statement that one type of heat exchanger is better than the other. It’s more about which specific products are available on the market, and what works best for someone’s specific use scenarios. Bottom line, the Evo2 Comp is large enough for anyone running up to a Stage 2 tune on the street. It’s also large enough for anyone not consistently doing more than 20min track sessions on hot summer days. And, it weighs 10lbs less than the large heavier bar plate IC’s that may have a little more cooling capacity. For those of us pushing the use case boundaries, we need more cooling than the Evo2 and many of the bar plate ICs. If one of you guys could go buy the large VRSFs and the Evo3 Comp and do the same logging comparison, we would all appreciate it! Dinan IC logs https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5c2c...729b51747a4b72 https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5c8c...729b3511ea8fd1 Evo2 Comp logs https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5cb9...729b44f4273e3b |
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04-18-2020, 02:52 PM | #571 | |
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So, if the VRSF Race or Evo3 Comp do the trick in my case, I’ll be happy. Maybe Tiago@VRSF will send me a VRSF Race IC or Basti@Wagner-Tuning will send me an Evo3 Comp to see if it’ll fit the M2, and then we can all see how these two IC’s perform compared to the Evo2? Last edited by ZM2; 04-18-2020 at 02:58 PM.. |
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04-18-2020, 05:13 PM | #572 | ||
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Read through the thread, no mention of increased lag either. If your tracking the car, the Race IC should be the final word. Quote:
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