[switlikbob]

Originally Posted by GerardzM

Fantastic!

Another M2 monster!

Would love to see video of this thing pull.

Is that engine cover cut in half?

Yes, I had to cut it, like everyone already said...

I'll try to gt a video for you soon. I don't have any video equipment though. Trying to drive 6 speed and film with my phone won't work.

[switlikbob]

So, we had to run the boost back down. My ER intercooler can't keep up with the heat on repeated runs.

You might think that made me sad. Not at all! The car is retarded fast. Turning traction control off would be a death wish. Here's a google vid (that really sucks, but all I could do on my own) of the traction control coming on in 4th gear.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pwDhNfbRMPbXJbRQ8

[switlikbob]

I'd appreciate it you guy take a look at my logs:

https://datazap.me/u/switlikbob/

I'm looking for the specific logs that show my intercooler not keeping up. I looked at a few, but I really don't have time right now to examine all of them (diaper changes)...

[F87source]

Originally Posted by switlikbob

I'd appreciate it you guy take a look at my logs:

https://datazap.me/u/switlikbob/

I'm looking for the specific logs that show my intercooler not keeping up. I looked at a few, but I really don't have time right now to examine all of them (diaper changes)...

Your IAT's stayed pretty steady at 61*F throughout the whole pull on one of the logs, it might be due to it being a cool day or the pull not being long enough or not enough runs were done etc. Or it could be that the ER intercooler was perfectly suited to your conditions in this one log, ambient temps would be nice as well.

In another log you see IAT's at 64*F jump to 70*F at the end of the log so a 6*F jump which isn't too bad, but it depends on ambient of course which can cause IAT's to jump alot more on a hot day or heavy track use.

Another log was really inconsistent so not much interpretation can be done on that, and another log had you at 90*F plus but not too much IAT gains so it could be because the logs were too short, but an ambient temp would be nice here as well.

On the final log with a longer run and multiple shifts you had IATs from 72*F to 97*F which is a 25*F jump which is quite a bit, so if ambient temps were high this could be alot more dramatic. This was the run where I thought the ER intercooler imo not being able to keep the temps under control as the run progressed. On some other extremely intercoolers I see IAT's staying really steady or gaining maybe a couple of degrees or even dropping. But the PS2 at 20PSI + generates really hot IATs so it is to be expected. I also noticed some timing pulls being done on all 6 of the cylinders near the end of the logs which means you could have had some knocking as IAT's went past 90*F.


This is just my quick overview to view IAT's, so if I made any misinterpretations then I apologize ahead of time.

[GerardzM]

That's unfortunate, what would be the next best intercooler to try out?

I was always under the impression that CSF, VRSF Race and ER were essentially on par.

You wouldn't perhaps consider chemical cooling?

[switlikbob]

Originally Posted by F87source

Your IAT's stayed pretty steady at 61*F throughout the whole pull on one of the logs, it might be due to it being a cool day or the pull not being long enough or not enough runs were done etc. Or it could be that the ER intercooler was perfectly suited to your conditions in this one log, ambient temps would be nice as well.

In another log you see IAT's at 64*F jump to 70*F at the end of the log so a 6*F jump which isn't too bad, but it depends on ambient of course which can cause IAT's to jump alot more on a hot day or heavy track use.

Another log was really inconsistent so not much interpretation can be done on that, and another log had you at 90*F plus but not too much IAT gains so it could be because the logs were too short, but an ambient temp would be nice here as well.

On the final log with a longer run and multiple shifts you had IATs from 72*F to 97*F which is a 25*F jump which is quite a bit, so if ambient temps were high this could be alot more dramatic. This was the run where I thought the ER intercooler imo not being able to keep the temps under control as the run progressed. On some other extremely intercoolers I see IAT's staying really steady or gaining maybe a couple of degrees or even dropping. But the PS2 at 20PSI + generates really hot IATs so it is to be expected. I also noticed some timing pulls being done on all 6 of the cylinders near the end of the logs which means you could have had some knocking as IAT's went past 90*F.


This is just my quick overview to view IAT's, so if I made any misinterpretations then I apologize ahead of time.

That's what my quick review showed as well. So basically, this setup is fine for messing around on the street, and doing some drag strip runs. What it cannot do is run 30 minutes straight on the track in ambient temps above 80F. I am kind of pissed because the whole reason I broke the bank on the ER intercooler was because it claimed to do all of these things. I guess once the boost hits 20psi, it's just too hot for the air to air intercoolers to keep up.

Originally Posted by GerardzM

That's unfortunate, what would be the next best intercooler to try out?

I was always under the impression that CSF, VRSF Race and ER were essentially on par.

You wouldn't perhaps consider chemical cooling?

So, I can only speak for the VRSF race intercooler, as I have seen data. That intercooler will help my situation. However, it's still not the answer, as there are obvious drawbacks to any air to air intercooler.

I am going to reach out to some folks and see if we can work on creating and air/water cooling system like is used on the S55. The way I see it, the ECU has the leads to control the S55 unit. Only issue is the adaptation of the dual inlets to a single. I'm sure any competent aftermarket manufacturer can create something to do the job right. In the mean time, I'm going to enjoy the hell out of the car, because it's an absolute blast to drive.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by switlikbob

That's what my quick review showed as well. So basically, this setup is fine for messing around on the street, and doing some drag strip runs. What it cannot do is run 30 minutes straight on the track in ambient temps above 80F. I am kind of pissed because the whole reason I broke the bank on the ER intercooler was because it claimed to do all of these things. I guess once the boost hits 20psi, it's just too hot for the air to air intercoolers to keep up.

Well the 90ish *F isn't too bad of an IAT but that interpretation depends on the ambient temps. So if your ambient temps were really high and you only hit 90*F that would be fine, but if your ambient temps were cool and you hit 90*F that would not be too good at all. Plus the gain in temps of 25*F on a relatively short pull is not a great sign either, but that interpretation is also dependent on ambients.

Overall for street driving it isn't too bad, and I think you'll be ok drag racing too. But for the track I think you should look at a more effective intercooler, because PS2 runs really hot at 20psi+.

Originally Posted by switlikbob

I am going to reach out to some folks and see if we can work on creating and air/water cooling system like is used on the S55. The way I see it, the ECU has the leads to control the S55 unit. Only issue is the adaptation of the dual inlets to a single. I'm sure any competent aftermarket manufacturer can create something to do the job right. In the mean time, I'm going to enjoy the hell out of the car, because it's an absolute blast to drive.

Some guys already have done this on the N55, they just have a relay that holds off on the air to water intercooler pump until a few mins after start up to aid in allowing temps to rise faster. Overall you really shouldn't need the ecu to control anything, all you need is the turbo to intercooler pipes (2:1 since the n55 is a single turbo). If you wanted to save some money maybe you can get a water injection kit to suppress IAT's or run E85. Just remember the larger the intercooler the better the IAT control is, but it generally tends to be thicker meaning less air flow to the coolers behind it causing water temps to rise.

[switlikbob]

Could you share any info you have on the people who have done the air/water setup?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by switlikbob

Could you share any info you have on the people who have done the air/water setup?

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link other forums here so If it is not allowed please inform me and I will remove it.

1) His name is JRturboAWD and he is the first person that I am aware of making it fit on the E series N55 135i.https://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50300

2)This guy has done it on the n54
https://*********************/boards...et-build.3516/

Both guys I believe are engineers so they were able to fabricate required parts quite easily.

[switlikbob]

Thanks very much! I'll reach out.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by switlikbob

Thanks very much! I'll reach out.

NP! Just becareful with the intercooler part, aparently the S55 oem intercooler leaks so if I were you I would look at an aftermarket solution.

[switlikbob]

I'm actually going to see if ATM or CSF can build something for me, and in turn, everyone else to use.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by switlikbob

I'm actually going to see if ATM or CSF can build something for me, and in turn, everyone else to use.

Most the existing S55 stuff should be bolt ons, but there needs to be additional supporting stuff to bridge the gap between S55 and N55.

[switlikbob]

Yes, let's see if we can get a package put together!

[SeanWRT]

I reviewed most of your logs.

Things are exactly as I anticipated. Trading some 3 degrees of ignition is basically how it's possible for you to run at 21psi on pump gas and under extremely cool 60+F of IAT (ambient should be 30+F or so, freezing cold).

The following log of yours shows the fragility and incapability of your hardware for the aggression of the map. Under 90F of IAT, to say the engine runs no good is a huge understatement. You keep doing such pulls, your engine will physically break.
https://datazap.me/u/switlikbob/log-...17-18-19-20-21
https://datazap.me/u/switlikbob/log-...17-18-19-20-21

This map of yours is only for dyno and drag under perfect ambient condition. And I would seriously doubt it'd break 450 on dynojet even on a freezing cold day without octane booster. Because I've seen many enough - with N55 EWG hybrid STG2 turbo, the 450whp normally comes with 19-20psi (more importantly high filling %) and maxed out timing.

I would dial back, considerably.

Bigger IC or W2A IC will not address the temp issue at all. If anything, they would hold up temp a little bit longer before eventually heat soaked. The real issue is that the hybrid turbo is working way out of its efficiency zone at 20+psi. If you read compressor map, there is a flow (lbs/min) point, passing which each pounds of boost come with significantly more heat. We normally call 75+% area the high efficiency zone. Meaning 75% of energy produced is for pressurizing the air and 25% for making the heat. When pushed above 20psi, N55 hybrid is absolutely way below efficiency threshold. You can chemically cool it down for a couple runs, but everything heat soaks quickly. The point is, working with an overloaded turbo, however much heat the bigger IC or W2A IC can absorb, if it doesn't cool itself quick enough, it's not sustainable.

And you can't just blame the cooling. I know everyone can have different acceptance criteria. But normally engine should be running excellent up to 90F of IAT, and see acceptable correction up to 120F. For sure above 120, there will be noticeable timing pull, but nothing like in your case where it's all over the place down to the ground even at just 90F. If you pull out knock channel I'm sure it's super knocking already.

I don't even want to start on the octane issue. PR coils maybe improve a bit, but certainly not by much according to your log. If anything, the extremely low ambient temp should take all the credit. If you want to run good at 80+F, dual CM10 meth injection is an absolute requirement, which BTW isn't reliable at all with heavy use.

Apologies for these harsh comments ruining the party. This thread of yours can and may have already misled many to wrong understanding of N55 hybrid turbo capability on PUMP GAS, like many threads before you.

[F87source]

I just looked at the original post it's on a Dyno com, those things read higher than Dyno jets do so likely it's not 500whp.

[switlikbob]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

I reviewed most of your logs.

Things are exactly as I anticipated. Trading some 3 degrees of ignition is basically how it's possible for you to run at 21psi on pump gas and under extremely cool 60+F of IAT (ambient should be 30+F or so, freezing cold).

The following log of yours shows the fragility and incapability of your hardware for the aggression of the map. Under 90F of IAT, to say the engine runs no good is a huge understatement. You keep doing such pulls, your engine will physically break.
https://datazap.me/u/switlikbob/log-...17-18-19-20-21
https://datazap.me/u/switlikbob/log-...17-18-19-20-21

This map of yours is only for dyno and drag under perfect ambient condition. And I would seriously doubt it'd break 450 on dynojet even on a freezing cold day without octane booster. Because I've seen many enough - with N55 EWG hybrid STG2 turbo, the 450whp normally comes with 19-20psi (more importantly high filling %) and maxed out timing.

I would dial back, considerably.

Bigger IC or W2A IC will not address the temp issue at all. If anything, they would hold up temp a little bit longer before eventually heat soaked. The real issue is that the hybrid turbo is working way out of its efficiency zone at 20+psi. If you read compressor map, there is a flow (lbs/min) point, passing which each pounds of boost come with significantly more heat. We normally call 75+% area the high efficiency zone. Meaning 75% of energy produced is for pressurizing the air and 25% for making the heat. When pushed above 20psi, N55 hybrid is absolutely way below efficiency threshold. You can chemically cool it down for a couple runs, but everything heat soaks quickly. The point is, working with an overloaded turbo, however much heat the bigger IC or W2A IC can absorb, if it doesn't cool itself quick enough, it's not sustainable.

And you can't just blame the cooling. I know everyone can have different acceptance criteria. But normally engine should be running excellent up to 90F of IAT, and see acceptable correction up to 120F. For sure above 120, there will be noticeable timing pull, but nothing like in your case where it's all over the place down to the ground even at just 90F. If you pull out knock channel I'm sure it's super knocking already.

I don't even want to start on the octane issue. PR coils maybe improve a bit, but certainly not by much according to your log. If anything, the extremely low ambient temp should take all the credit. If you want to run good at 80+F, dual CM10 meth injection is an absolute requirement, which BTW isn't reliable at all with heavy use.

Apologies for these harsh comments ruining the party. This thread of yours can and may have already misled many to wrong understanding of N55 hybrid turbo capability on PUMP GAS, like many threads before you.

Thanks Sean. The tune was dialed back down. I am currently running 18-19 psi. I shared ALL of the logs with you guys. There were 9 revision tunes during the logging.

I am going to get out this weekend and get some new street logs. I think they will show better IAT's, but I have no doubt that my IC is not capable. Let's see what the next set of logs show.

[switlikbob]

I logged a bunch yesterday. You can clearly see the new logs dated yesterday.

I feel like the logs show my car behaving nicely with th eboost turned down. IAT's never really get more than 15 degrees over ambient (60F) when the car is moving.

Here's an example: https://datazap.me/u/switlikbob/4-10...data=3-7-15-25

@SeanWRT , can you look and share your thoughts?

[5thGearPinned]

Originally Posted by switlikbob

I logged a bunch yesterday. You can clearly see the new logs dated yesterday.

I feel like the logs show my car behaving nicely with th eboost turned down. IAT's never really get more than 15 degrees over ambient (60F) when the car is moving.

Here's an example: https://datazap.me/u/switlikbob/4-10...data=3-7-15-25

Sean, can you look and share your thoughts?

Aside from the Datalogs and reliability. Curious what the car feels like with the XDI pump? Did you drive the car with the stock fuel system and Pure Turbo before getting the HPFP installed? I have the same mod list except CAI and have been debating the HPFP upgrade. But really, I am looking for seat of the pants feel and improvement over the current setup, which rips, but feels like there is untapped power potential given the limited fuel supply. Thoughts?

[switlikbob]

Originally Posted by 5thGearPinned

Aside from the Datalogs and reliability. Curious what the car feels like with the XDI pump? Did you drive the car with the stock fuel system and Pure Turbo before getting the HPFP installed? I have the same mod list except CAI and have been debating the HPFP upgrade. But really, I am looking for seat of the pants feel and improvement over the current setup, which rips, but feels like there is untapped power potential given the limited fuel supply. Thoughts?

I did not drive with the XDI pump on stock turbo. The Pure turbo, pump, ER intercooler and coils were all done at the same time.

The car is an absolute beast. It pulls so hard to redline, I don't know when it's time to shift (6MT) anymore. Seriously, I'm scared to turn traction control off because of how snappy the rear end behaves now.

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Thanks for the reply.

From the graph, boost doesn't taper much if any at the top end.

Frankly, I am shocked N55 holds up 20+psi on pump gas even at middle range. If it's really the Precision Raceworks Coils, it's an amazing mod. PR should make a plug and play kit for the N55 as they do for the N54.

Can't wait to see logs.

Amazing build and result!

Right on...

To the person that commented about torque falling off at 5k...Thats actually perfect. Torque cant be linear, its a measure of work, as hp is a measure of power over time...you can calculate one knowing the other and the rpm of the hp or tq you want to calculate.

And with that hpfp and slightly bigger turbo running 22psi, there should be no taper of boost...BC the turbo/fmic in the M2 heats so fast and direct injection mortors like timing as much or more than boost...Some tuners believe you get a better curve and more power across the upper rev range by lowering boost slightly (as it really heats) and this allows for a leaner LAMBDA and extra timing advance which make more power than the boost thats been lowered...

[F87source]

Originally Posted by DKM2Power

Right on...

To the person that commented about torque falling off at 5k...Thats actually perfect. Torque cant be linear, its a measure of work, as hp is a measure of power over time...you can calculate one knowing the other and the rpm of the hp or tq you want to calculate.

And with that hpfp and slightly bigger turbo running 22psi, there should be no taper of boost...BC the turbo/fmic in the M2 heats so fast and direct injection mortors like timing as much or more than boost...Some tuners believe you get a better curve and more power across the upper rev range by lowering boost slightly (as it really heats) and this allows for a leaner LAMBDA and extra timing advance which make more power than the boost thats been lowered...

His timing was being pulled later on into the pull which also corresponds to the drop in his torque and power curve so likely that's why the graph dips.... You can pull boost but likely he doesn't have enough octane to advance timing since his iats even with lower boost probably won't stabilize any further.