04-20-2017, 06:36 AM | #23 | |
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04-20-2017, 09:06 AM | #24 | ||
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These are all learned skills and almost anyone can get better. It's a bit like like a musical instrument in that some folks are way more naturally talented and a few are totally hopeless. However, the vast majority of us will improve significantly with practice. We just never get the practice and are handed a license. It's as if you're given a Steinway after learning chopsticks. For quite a while, the bottleneck to going faster is the driver. Ask a Spec Miata guy how easy it is to drive a low hp momentum car at the limits. Practice not mods when you're starting out. Except for the glossy black grill surround. That's a mod I can go for. |
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04-20-2017, 02:37 PM | #25 | |
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05-06-2017, 09:28 AM | #26 | |
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05-09-2017, 04:42 PM | #27 |
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Pad options
I'll provide some feedback from a track-driven M4. I'm on my third season with about 10 track days per year, here in the US. Lime Rock Park, Watkins Glen, Mont Tremblant, and NHMS.
If you swap pads for the track, as I do, and are running race pads...I've run Pagid RS29 and Pagid RSL1 pads. The RS29 pads are excellent but don't have the bite/torque of the RSL1. That said, the RSL1 pads got the brakes so hot that even after extended cool down laps, my calipers are now a greenish color up front. Never have boiled brake fluid (running Motul RBF 600 fluid) and I change it once/month during track season...no matter what. The M4 is slightly heavier than the M2, but has the same braking system and pads. Not a lot of options out there. PFC 08 is now out, and that's a great pad (used them on my E90 M3). You can't lose w/the RS29...I've used this pad almost exclusively and it has great overall performance, doesn't interfere w/the factory pads (no rotor deposits), and lasts for several track days (4-5 days per set). I'm an upper intermediate driver, so pretty hard on my brakes. I also run CCW wheels w/NT01 tires (lots of grip for braking). I'm getting my M2 this summer, so I'll have further feedback after my first few track days. I expect it will be close to the M4, given same suspension/track/brakes/LSD. Fun, durable M Car. -Brian |
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05-11-2017, 08:35 AM | #28 |
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Below are two videos we produced on planning brake upgrades. Also, several years ago I wrote a basic brake upgrade guide on a different forum. Everything in that article applies to the M2. Hopefully these are helpful.
Videos High Performance Brake Upgrade Guide How to Plan for Future Brake Needs Basic Brake Upgrade Guide Daily Driver If you never plan to do anything with your car other than drive it to work every day, there’s a solid chance you’ll be perfectly happy with the OEM brakes as delivered. Just about every modern car today has decent brakes, with far superior technology and performance vs. the cars our parents drove when we were kids. OEM brakes are designed for safety above all else. Any and all other considerations are secondary:
Achieving the above objectives are sufficient for most of the cars on the road. For a specialized sports car, the manufacturer obviously goes a bit above and beyond these essentials. Factors such as pedal feel, pedal travel, pad compound feel, fade resistance under heavier than normal use, etc. all come into play. The manufacturer addresses these issues to make their car a competitive performer in the market, all while attempting to manage their costs as tightly as possible. If your primary objective with your car is to safely take you from one place to another, you’ll be fine with leaving your stock brakes alone. Spirited Street Driving Enthusiasts tend to be a little tougher on equipment than ‘non-car’ people. They accelerate, turn, and brake harder on a regular basis, and they have higher performance expectations. Aggressive driving on back roads, canyons, etc. puts more heat into the brake system than running errands ever could. While manufacturers expect a sports car to be driven harder than a minivan, exactly how much harder leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Your idea of being tough on brakes may differ vastly from the engineers’ thoughts on the subject. Below is a list of upgrades that can be considered for aggressive street driving, in order of importance:
AutoX Autocross presents a unique challenge for your car's brakes. Depending on the course layout, the amount of pad heat generated may not be any greater than stop-and-go traffic driving. Many times you never get out of second gear, which means speeds are generally limited to roughly 60 mph or less. Additionally, the flowing nature of a well-designed autocross course means that you don't always scrub off a tremendous amount of speed entering each brake zone. More often than not, you're trail-braking as you approach the apex of the corner, rather than standing on the brakes in a straight line. Therefore, precise control and feedback is what you're looking for in your brakes. Here are some brake upgrades to consider if you autoX your car:
HPDE (High Performance Drivers Education)/Time Trial On a road course, you will always put more heat into your brake system than you will on the street or at an autoX. Please reread that sentence! HPDE is really the first venue I've mentioned thus far where battling heat becomes the critical element in having an effective and reliable brake system. One of the most interesting aspects of HPDE is the wide range of speeds and driver ability across run groups. As such, it's difficult to recommend a blanket brake solution for an M2 driven at a HPDE. As more and more people modify and drive these cars on tracks, we'll begin to get a better idea of what the typical and maximum brake demands will be. After countless discussions with customers on this topic over the years, I believe there a few key considerations when upgrading your brakes for an HPDE or Time Trial: Driver experience, track layout, vehicle configuration/modification, and tire choice. A careful examination of these factors in your personal situation should help guide you towards an acceptable brake solution. Keep in mind that all of these factors are related, and cannot be considered in isolation from one another.
So where does all of that leave us when upgrading your brakes for an HPDE or Time Trial? The critical point is, every modification you make to your car and the nut behind the wheel will change the demands on your brake system, and you must adjust accordingly. Just because you used a particular brake pad before, doesn't mean it will work again after you've installed your new turbo kit and Hoosiers. Chances are that after your 25th event, you'll be taxing your brakes very differently than you did during your first event. You'll be hitting higher speeds, entering and exiting corners faster and in a different way, and your car will likely have more grip and power than it did when you started (you'll also be much poorer, but likely happier ). If you typically run Limerock (a short track without many big braking zones), but decide to make a trip to Watkins Glen (a crazy fast track with huge brake demands), you need to reconsider how your brakes will be taxed. You must constantly evaluate the overall condition of your brake system, and not be afraid to try new brake setups as both you and your car evolve. If you want to play it safe and not risk damage to the major components of your brake system, don't EVER drive an OEM pad on a road course. It may be more convenient and seem economical to run stock pads, but it will cost you time and money in the long run. There's also not much worse than wasted track time. When you're sitting in the pits watching your buddy rip down the front straight, and your stock pads are a steaming pile of dust lying inside your wheels, you'll be wishing you spent a couple hundred bucks and took the hour on Friday night to change your pads and bleed your fluid. Hopefully that is helpful to some of you. |
05-15-2017, 09:24 AM | #29 |
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We just got back from a weekend at Road America and one of the cars we took with us was our shop M2. We ran both Pagid RS29 and PFC08 pads on stock brakes with our RF1 racing brake fluid. With stock wheels and street tires (Michelin Super Sports), the oem brake setup with either the Pagid or PFC pads worked great with no fade. You don't want to use the oem pads for any track use (they will fade quickly and wear out over the course of a weekend under moderate speed/ability). When we mounted our Forgelines wearing Hoosier R7's, both the RS29 and PFC 08 continued to perform well on the factory brakes for most of the session. We did notice some fade towards the end of the session as the oem rotors succumbed to the punishment of the high-speed nature of Road America's T1 and T5 (coming into both of which the M2 saw top speeds of 144-147mph before braking at the 300 foot marker). We had to move our braking points back about 50' to account for the increased stopping distances required from the maxed out oem rotors and calipers.
We found the wear between the RS29 and PFC 08 to be about the same. Both are endurance compounds designed to give up some initial bite in exchange for longer wear of both the pads and rotors. The PFC08's provided better initial bite at the cost of ease of modulation as they were more difficult to apply smoothly for lighter braking zones. The Pagid RS29's provided a very smooth application and release but did require greater pedal pressure to attain the same level of initial bite as the PFC 08's. Overall they both worked much better then oem pads on the track but with different characteristics to suit individual driving styles. You can find additional information on the products we used here; PFC 08's: http://competitionmotorsport.com/per...-f8x-m2-m3-m4/ Pagid RS29's: http://competitionmotorsport.com/per...ase-comp-2016/ CMS RF1 Brake Fluid: http://competitionmotorsport.com/com...-fluid-500-ml/ PM or give us a ring at 844.438.7244 and let us know how we can help. |
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05-16-2017, 03:56 PM | #30 | |
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I have over a dozen track days using the Carbotech XP 10/8 set up. These pads take a beating....at Road Atlanta the M goes over 145 (149 top) and hard brakes between the 200-250 marker for a slow left.....great initial bite and no fade. I did install homemade cooling ducts and ran Motuil 660. I have gone through 2 sets of fronts and still have 1/4 left on the rears.....original rotors still good with some spiders. I am switching the the PFC 08s for next weekend to see how they compare AND to see if I can use them on the street. |
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05-18-2017, 03:51 PM | #31 |
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Just ran my first trackday ever at Clastres with the M2 with stock brake pads and rotors. I did not do more than 6 laps at a time at moderate speeds and respected cooldown. Brake feel held up ok, but now I have a light shudder when slowing down at higher speeds ( 100km/h plus). Same feeling like when ABS kicks in. Probably ruined the rotors already. Stopping power is still good though. Does.anyone now if this can go away or means swapping the pads or rotors? Can BMW be persuaded to change this under warranty or is that a hopeless case? Next for me will be the upgrade to pagids and castrol sfr.
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05-19-2017, 11:45 AM | #32 | |
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Will try an intensive cleaning of the discs with a brush, sandpaper, and disc cleanser and hopefully it will disappear. If not, back at BMW and ? but I wonder whether they will take this under warranty when they'll see my tires revealing clearly the track use. From what I already read on forums, several people suffered from the same issue after trackdays with oem pads. Some but not all of them (!) got free discs warranty replacement... Keep me posted please ! I see that you are based in BE and me too. Brussels surroundings ? ? |
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05-19-2017, 12:20 PM | #33 |
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Have similar issues with mine. I doubt BMW will cover it. Might have them machined if it's not too bad. Quite disappointed, and I wasn't even going all out with plenty of breaks in between runs.
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05-19-2017, 02:44 PM | #34 |
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Indeed, Antwerp region. Next week I will go to Zolder. As this is even heavier on the brakes I'm curious to see if I make the end of the day... from what I can see the pads and discs are still good. Does anyone know what the problem exactly could be? Feels to me the discs are slightly warped. Preferably I would like to drive normal roads for a decent amount of miles before going back to BMW. How long is track use visable on the tires?
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05-19-2017, 02:56 PM | #35 |
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After reading previous posts, the problem more like is uneven pad deposits on the discs. Quite disappointed the OEM system can't even handle a few very calm laps on the track. What I'm more interested in: can the uneven pad deposits disappear with normal road use, or is the only solution new pads and discs or get the discs turned?
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05-21-2017, 04:36 PM | #36 | |
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05-21-2017, 04:37 PM | #37 | |
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05-21-2017, 04:38 PM | #38 |
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05-21-2017, 04:41 PM | #39 | |
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05-21-2017, 08:27 PM | #40 |
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05-22-2017, 09:18 AM | #41 |
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I would expect to see uneven pad deposits when running the OEM pads or Ferodo DS2500 on the front of the car. Those pads are not designed for road course use on the front of a heavy, fast car! You need the proper tools for the job, which are racing/track pads with a higher max operating temperature. You will melt and smear a street pad on the discs when you run them up past their max operating temp.
The most popular combination among our big brake kit customers is to use Ferodo DS2500 for sport driving, mated to Ferodo DS1.11 (moderate mu) or DSUNO (higher mu) for track use. The great thing about this combo is that both compounds are made from the same core materials. As such, you don't need to completely re-bed your discs every time you go from street to track and back. Not only do they work well in their respective environments, they make the whole experience a lot less labor-intensive. Ferodo DS2500 for the Front M2 OEM Calipers Ferodo DS1.11 for the Front M2 OEM Calipers Ferodo DSUNO for the Front M2 OEM Calipers Ferodo DS2500 for the Rear M2 OEM Calipers Ferodo DS1.11 for the Rear M2 OEM Calipers Ferodo DSUNO for the Rear M2 OEM Calipers When running pads from different manufacturers, you really need to carefully manage your pads and discs to avoid judder/vibration. In the video below I demonstrate how to do so. One never knows how two different materials will 'play' on the disc face. Sometimes they interact okay, but other times they make a total mess! How to Between Street and Track Pads: |
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