07-05-2023, 09:52 AM | #309 | |
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While some of you take street logs and read & comment a bunch in the forums like your knowledge and experiences are applicable to the situations we’re trying to address in this thread. |
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07-05-2023, 09:57 AM | #310 | |
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And as always, I'll do my best to substantiate everything I say with sources. I'm here to help you (and save you money) but ultimately, you're going to do what you're going to do. |
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07-05-2023, 03:21 PM | #311 | |
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How you’re going to amass data on whether this is an airflow issue bn the IC and radiator or something else vs. providing theory on what you think the problem is, I have no idea, unless you have a buddy with an M2 that hits the track all the time and you guys are willing to join the experiment. We’ve been iterating on this for a while and the list is getting shorter on what the final fix should be, but we’re not there yet. If I had been tracking the car like I was back in 2017-19, we’d likely already be there. Even guys that build street/track and track only M2’s like OG Shark have struggled with this issue. If you think you can contribute, theory or not, please do. Last edited by ZM2; 07-05-2023 at 03:31 PM.. |
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07-05-2023, 03:36 PM | #312 |
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While I don’t think it’s a silver bullet, I am curious what impact a funk motorsports turbo blanket, ceramic coated downpipe, and vented hood would have collectively.
I know fitment on your TE460 may differ slightly but I think this is an option for the Pure500 build I’m considering. |
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07-05-2023, 03:47 PM | #313 | |
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I do have a Suvneer GTS hood, I’ll add it to my list above. Thanks for reminding me! Last edited by ZM2; 07-05-2023 at 03:53 PM.. |
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07-05-2023, 09:43 PM | #314 |
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I just reviewed 2 videos and a log of a track event (two different tracks, cars and drivers) and saw basically no difference between a taller core or a shorter one. In fact, the car with the taller core performed as good as the Shorter core when it came to cooling - the temps continued to drop and stay at a medium despite the more aggressive driving:
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...2024707&page=2 |
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07-06-2023, 06:29 AM | #315 |
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It’s worth noting that from what I gather ZM2 is running longer sessions (beyond 25mins) with ambient temps in the 90s and above and making 45whp more.
I’m not saying his temp issues only arise on 95* days AFTER 30 min mark but as he mentioned earlier there are a lot of variables at play here including track, turbo, power levels, tune and more. His issues have been encountered by others so as he points out, this is in fact a thing. |
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07-06-2023, 06:51 AM | #316 | |
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This has been an issue for years with the OG. The problem has been determining what best to do about it bc of all the variables involved bn different car setups, tunes, drivers, tracks, weather, etc. Add coolant and/or oil capacity? Try a different IC bc it’s an airflow issue? It’s taking longer to tackle this bc it’s not an armchair engineering or log review & make assumptions exercise. You have to make a change based on the current data you have and see if that change made things better or worse. Right now, it’s pointing to the IC creating airflow issues for the radiator, which would require a change to test out. Altho, I need to test the do88 radiator and new tune first on a hot summer day to see how much/if those items help. Last edited by ZM2; 07-06-2023 at 07:17 AM.. |
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07-06-2023, 07:26 AM | #317 | |
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I know outings are for enjoyment not testing Lol but I’d love to see 3 sessions logged with like 415whp/435/455whp tunes on your setup if I could waive a magic wand. |
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07-06-2023, 07:29 AM | #318 | |
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It’s easy enough to map switch via the steering wheel, so can def get different logs for each power level. |
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07-06-2023, 09:04 AM | #319 |
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while I agree super large intercoolers are pretty out of place on a track car... I doubt the taller cores are really having a massive impact on coolant temps. Do they help with the issue? No. Do people obsess of IAT's for no reason? Yes. All my experience is with the e-series chassis. I run a 5" intercooler instead of the larger 7" cores people use. The only track I've seen 150f+ at was Pocono raceway which has one of the largest straights in America depending on the configuration. Running the smaller intercooler is a non-issue on track. Just up the octane a hair or drop the timing by half a degree if you see IAT induced knock. That being said, I did see a nice improvement in cooling when I removed my A/C. The A/c evap sits in front of the radiator and both blocks flow and puts heat into the radiator.
Now as for oil/water temps... it's complicated on the e-series because of the electronic water pump. Some of my early posts were before we had the coolant "map" and how it related it AMBIENT air temperature and pedal position. I noted how coolant temps actually seemed to DROP when I drove aggressively indicating that the cooling system had overhead that wasn't being tapped for performance. This turned out to be because the coolant pump duty cycle targets higher coolant temps for economy unless the pedal angle was at 100% or ambient temp is 96f+. So you blast down the straight away at wide open throttle and the duty cycle increases to drop coolant temps to a "performance" target oil 190f. I would see coolant temps dropping on the straight or on a back road pull. Now we re-map those cooling setpoints for performance with MHD or a custom tune to always shoot for 180f coolant in race mode. I personally am able to track my car with distilled water + a 26row oil cooler and nothing else. Temps stay fine. Last time out at Lime rock on an 86f day I barley cracked 250f oil temps. Coolant hit 220 or so by the end of a 20minute session. Higher than I would like but realistically perfectly fine given the car would regular be at 230+ before remapping the coolant targets. Not a single bit of knock in the log. The lower coolant targets help keep oil temps in check. A 25 or 30 minute session would be much more difficult to handle I would think. From here I would upgrade my radiator to a CSF drop in... but overall the car has been fine on track with minimal mods other than a larger oil cooler and the water pump remap. I made my own oil cooler duct and removed the stock plastic to ensure the oil cooler was force fed air. Many overlook this and their oil coolers don't act as efficiently as they should. Can't just slap a generic oil cooler into the bumper and let airflow go right around it... you likely wont net any gains over stock where the plastic trim fits perfectly to the core. Some of the oil cooler posted above do look pretty generic. Those "deflecting" shrouds don't look that great and the louvered backing plate will indeed prevent airflow through the core. I wouldn't use that louvered backing plate at all. This is why I opted against spending money on a name brand oil cooler and used a generic core and made my own shroud out of aluminum sheeting. Did it bolt in? No. Took a bit of red neck ingenuity to fab up a bracket and module the aluminum to the core. But my shroud is tight around all 4 corners with the top being curved for aero flow. I can't speak to the specifics of M2 cooling issues. I remember seeing them struggling on track years back when they first came out. Constant overheating after only a few minutes of driving. Didn't make much sense given the M2 gets significantly more cooling and aero vs a basic 135. That being said, I see some really fast lap times being thrown down by M2 cars. Plenty of youtube vids of M2's going sub 1.00 at lime rock. People clearly have cooling figured out. Hard to find videos with temps in them though. Last edited by bbnks2; 07-06-2023 at 09:49 AM.. |
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07-06-2023, 10:15 AM | #320 | |||
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You were having issues with cooling before switching to a 5" taller intercooler, and everything I've seen shows that it's an M2 issue oil cooler issue and not a intercooler passthrough issue. Is there anyone else you know of or can link me to that has tested the CSF oil cooler by itself? The one review I saw was disappointing. The OP said to only dropped temps "marginally" (3F) which makes sense - it doesn't really increase oil capacity which I believe is equally important. Remember the air cooled Porsches? They were cooled entirely with oil and had massive oil capacity: https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1864339 Quote:
BMW's Part number for the oil cooler on the M2 is 17217853240, and per CSF, it's a 15 rows (for the M235i it's 13 rows) vs their 18 rows, but it only increases the oil capacity to 7.5 (up.5) quarts. They also have a secondary core on the rear of the first core - though as we know with intercoolers, the depth is not as effective as frontal surface area: https://ind-distribution.com/product...pec-oil-cooler The ER oil cooler appears to be bigger in comparison, as does the DO88, does anyone have any experience with those? But before you spend crazy money on a new intercooler, oil cooler or anything else, what about trying a oil thermostat. That might be the most cost effective and easiest upgrade to do. It appear that the Mosselman version isn't a always open based t-stat like the BMS on the comment here: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ight=mosselman Quote:
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07-06-2023, 11:58 AM | #321 | ||
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Notes: Tracks the car Is actually a race car Has experience Tested products Also noted from his setup - 21PSI - and 465whp No secondary radiator. Zero Stock radiator? Intercooler and secondary Oil cooler occupying MORE space and airflow than a taller intercooler would Despite this Coolant temps in full attack mode were 237F at the highest It is, and always has been an oil cooler issue, and possible a airflow issue with the M2's bumper like I surmised a few days ago. I would start with a thermostat and look for a bigger/better oil cooler. No need to reinvent the wheel. |
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07-06-2023, 12:24 PM | #322 |
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Does anyone know if the oil thermostat bypass/always open thing like the BMS one actually improve the flow of oil or anything? If i recall correctly those are a very quick install and dont require removing the OFH or anything. I wonder if its worth it to toss one of those in and go out and test to see if steady state oil temps are affected at all. Obviously they will start lower, but the question is if it keeps the peak lower.
If that doesn't help then going to a different thermostat like the Mosselman seems like it wouldn't either, and is far easier to test. |
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07-06-2023, 12:36 PM | #323 | |||
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The Mosselman is actually functioning as a lower thermostat switch, and would likely be better for street cars, since it still allows them to reach "operating temps" but adds about 20F headroom over baseline. I don't think either provide any extra cooling, but rather allow the cooler to shed head before it's heat soaked by the time the thermostat would open. Here is a review of the BMS unit from 2013: https://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833908 Edit: thejeremyman9 - you are right, it does: https://burgertuning.com/products/sp...l-cooler-valve Quote:
Edit edit: Maxcool mode is NOT a replacement for a lower temperature thermostat, as it only targets coolant (likely overdriving the waterpump) Quote:
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07-06-2023, 04:08 PM | #324 | |
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Max cooling mode is the first thing anyone should do before touching any hardware. No you're not overdriving the water pump. It's map controlled like I said above and it sits idle quite a bit to keep coolant running excessively hot for economy. M2 likely has better stock mapping than a regular n55 but still.... there is cooling overhead there to take advantage of. You don't want you're car targeting 236f cooling temps on track. You want to drop that to 180. Yes the water pump will.have to work harder and the thermostat will stay fully open (it's also electronic), but, that's not "overdrive." The car can always hit those lower cooling targets it just doesn't do it unless you stay at wide open throttle for a while. And if you start at 236f at wide open throttle your coolant temps will only drop so much. You want your coolant at <190f on track. What's the difference between 230 and 190? An entire 40f. Where will your oil temps be by dropping cooling 40f??? They'll be 30-40f lower meaning you'll be going on track at 210f oil which is the opening of the stock oil thermostat..no need for a low temperature oil thermostat really as 210f is perfect for a street/track car. You want max cooling mode first and foremost. Then reassess. You can code back to stock cooling in 30 seconds when you're back to daily driving. Combine 180f coolant temps with a bigger oil cooler and you likely won't see much if nay need for any additional cooling... maybe on longer 25-30minute session you'll start seeing bugger climbs in temps and then you can look at a csf radiator or something. Cooling will rise from thermal overload of the stock radiator as you run through a track session. If you're driving on the street I don't care hit hard you drive your car you don't need any cooling upgrades. There is 0 comparison to on track. People see 250f oil on the street and think they need a low temp thermostat. You dont and you're not using all the cooling capacity you already have without max cooling mode. Quite frankly there is 0 reason to keep oil <250f on the street. Last edited by bbnks2; 07-06-2023 at 04:13 PM.. |
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07-06-2023, 04:20 PM | #325 | |
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Finally, Bootmod (at least for the B series motors) claims they run the intercooler (Air to water) pump all the time - on the N series, they don't say how it's done In this thread from 2022 from "....Street" it's stated that it's actually the water pump and fan are run in a "more aggressive manner" so maybe "overdrive" isn't the correct term, but the idea is there. .....street.com/threads/mhd-tuning-coolant-target-question.8521/ FYI - no one here is talking about street anything - everything here is entirely track focused. He's already running max cool mode, an upgraded oil cooler, upgraded radiator, and upgraded auxiliary radiator and none of them are solving the problem. The only thing he hasn't tried is using a bypass or lower temp thermostat for the oil. |
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07-06-2023, 05:17 PM | #326 | |
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07-06-2023, 05:18 PM | #327 |
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You sure the stock oil t-tstat opens at 210F? I'm pretty sure it's higher than that, as normal oil temp is 245ish. Keeping oil temp around 210f is basically what the aftermarket one does.
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07-06-2023, 05:30 PM | #328 | |
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Again not sure if m2 is different but 99% sure the oil thermostat range is the same. |
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07-06-2023, 05:34 PM | #329 | |
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Most of his logs I dont see much to be concerned about to be honest The only log I see with high coolant temps is the top summit log with coolant hitting 238f. That's too high and oil is getting beyond stock thermostat range too. Cooling capacity is limited there. Coolant temps will start causing power reduction in another couple degrees... but he did survive the session without issue it looks like and did not hit that thermal threshold. Im not reading back through this whole thread but looks like he retrofitted the s55 water to air cooler? Iats are really nice.The n55 doesn't use a water to air cooler so can't speak on its performance. Looks like it could use an upgrade since coolant is overwhelmed.... and the automatic also takes a lot of room away from the radiator. I am a manual and I see autos have significanty harder time with temps. Maybe decouple the transmission from the radiator and free up that radiator capacity for coolant. But maybe the water to air cooler is doing too much duty in keeping iats down if that's what he's running... I would sacrifice iats for better coolant temps all day. Last edited by bbnks2; 07-06-2023 at 05:42 PM.. |
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07-07-2023, 08:42 AM | #330 | ||
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According to what I read from MHD, the lower cooling targets from the radiator actually can lower oil temps by 10F as well.
This all comes back to the coolant system is being used to cool the oil. Quote:
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