[AlpsRider]

There is a big diffrence between a manual and a DCT. At any given time a manual driver can push in the clutch and completely disengage the engine from the drivetrain. The driver can also reingage the engine to the drivetrain with a controlled nuance that is impossible to duplicate with a DCT. It basically comes down to control, a manual tranny offers the driver more contol of how the powerplant accelerates and decelerates the car. I believe that this added contol is only completely appreciated by someone that has driven a manual so much that the whole process is second nature.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

There is a big diffrence between a manual and a DCT. At any given time a manual driver can push in the clutch and completely disengage the engine from the drivetrain. The driver can also reingage the engine to the drivetrain with a controlled nuance that is impossible to duplicate with a DCT. It basically comes down to control, a manual tranny offers the driver more contol of how the powerplant accelerates and decelerates the car. I believe that this added contol is only completely appreciated by someone that has driven a manual so much that the whole process is second nature.

I've been driving a MT for 37 years. I still love my DCT.

I can't wait for the next gen cars to eliminated the DCT so we can just bash the AT. :Lol:

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

I've been driving a MT for 37 years. I still love my DCT.

I can't wait for the next gen cars to eliminated the DCT so we can just bash the AT. :Lol:

I really don't see much difference between the two; I swear, I must of been in like 30 different loaner cars with the ZF8 and they all have lighting-fast shifting.

I even demonstrated how quick they are to my manual-enthusiast friends and they were all impressed and loved it.

However, at the end of the day, as long as there is a third pedal option, it's always stick to clutch for me, as there is no replacement

Tell me which one below is an auto and which one is a DCT and what's the difference ::

[richard in NC]

To me, the ZF 8 speed is plenty fast for my M550i. It's even quicker in the M5 Comp that I've driven. I do think the M2C DCT is even quicker but there are several aspects to consider that all play a role in perceived quickness.
1. Paddle reaction time to start of shift and is it the press or release of the paddle. I hate slow paddles in some other cars I've driven.
2. Actual shift speed from releasing current gear to engaging the new one. Here the ZF is almost as quick as the DCT (milliseconds difference).
3. Torque re-application and engine timing retardation. Here's where the DCT is near instantaneous vs the ZF is a smoother re-engagement. Although the M5C can provide such brutal amounts of torque here, that you don't miss the DCT. It would definitely bark the tires with traction control off.
4. EDIT: I forgot another factor, the RPM change although that is related to #3.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I really don't see much difference between the two; I swear, I must of been in like 30 different loaner cars with the ZF8 and they all have lighting-fast shifting.

I even demonstrated how quick they are to my manual-enthusiast friends and they were all impressed and loved it.

However, at the end of the day, as long as there is a third pedal option, it's always stick to clutch for me, as there is no replacement

Tell me which one below is an auto and which one is a DCT and what's the difference ::

It's not just the shift speed of the DCT. It's the rest of DCT driving characteristics. The ZF is a fantastic trans, but it further isolates the driver. DCT drives like a MT without a third pedal in manual mode. It's just not the same.

[Karmic Man]

I donno why people keep saying DCT and Manual drives similar...

I can clutch kick before apex to initiate a drift in a manual, how do you do that in a DCT without the clutch?

Same with a car equipped with the E handbrake, much harder to pull off a handbrake turn because they are on-off and can't be modulated.

A clutch also allows for torque modulation to the driving wheel. The concerted effort of the clutch, the throttle and the traditional handbrake give us enthusiast the ultimate driving experience.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

I donno why people keep saying DCT and Manual drives similar...

I can clutch kick before apex to initiate a drift in a manual, how do you do that in a DCT without the clutch?

Same with a car equipped with the E handbrake, much harder to pull off a handbrake turn because they are on-off and can't be modulated.

A clutch also allows for torque modulation to the driving wheel. The concerted effort of the clutch, the throttle and the traditional handbrake give us enthusiast the ultimate driving experience.

Clutch kicking, handbrake pulling and clutch decoupling from engine are not somethings you do when performance driving.

These behaviors are more akin to hooliganism, I'm sorry to disappoint your inner 16 years old. btw been there done that.

BUT I will always have more fun driving a M/T, just saying a DCT is as close you will get to an automated M/T

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Clutch kicking, handbrake pulling and clutch decoupling from engine are not somethings you do when performance driving.

These behaviors are more akin to hooliganism, I'm sorry to disappoint your inner 16 years old. btw been there done that.

BUT I will always have more fun driving a M/T, just saying a DCT is as close you will get to an automated M/T

So funny, plenty of private places and events to drift. Never done any skidpan events? Drift schools?

Yes they are part of performance driving...

Some drifting 101 for you to ponder upon

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/drifting.html

Demonstration by the Drift King Keiichi Tsuchiya

[xxyion]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

DCT drives like a MT without a third pedal in manual mode. It's just not the same.

Honestly i dont understand this statement. What about it in manual mode makes driving a DCT like driving a Manual transmission?

All you are doing is choosing when to shift in the car. Just like any other automatic transmission with a "manual mode". However if thats all you believe driving a Manual Transmission to be, well then either you havnt driven them long enough or you never understood the nuance behind clutch control.

Driving MT has always been more than when to shift. As some other people have said, its about adjusting the throttle response and the way the car reacts to your foot with exact precision.
You cant do that in a DCT, when your foot is down its either go or no. With a clutch i can determine exactly how much throttle i want the car to have and change that within milliseconds from totally neutral to full throttle.

Please tell me how exactly is a DCT exactly like driving a MT just without the third pedal beyond just...well i can choose to shift now or later.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by xxyion

As some other people have said, its about adjusting the throttle response and the way the car reacts to your foot with exact precision.
You cant do that in a DCT, when your foot is down its either go or no. With a clutch i can determine exactly how much throttle i want the car to have and change that within milliseconds from totally neutral to full throttle.

Actually the pedal on the right is for this. It's even called... the throttle. The M2C lets you adjust your line on the throttle. It's lovely.

With DCT you have a direct connection exactly the same as manual. With the BMW version you choose your gear, you are in that gear. Many other systems still override you and change gears for you (like VW and Audi which people keep banging on about for some reason).

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

So funny, plenty of private places and events to drift. Never done any skidpan events? Drift schools?

Yes they are part of performance driving...

Some drifting 101 for you to ponder upon

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/drifting.html

Demonstration by the Drift King Keiichi Tsuchiya

How to drift in a DCT.

[xxyion]

Originally Posted by Davil

Actually the pedal on the right is for this. It's even called... the throttle. The M2C lets you adjust your line on the throttle. It's lovely.

With DCT you have a direct connection exactly the same as manual. With the BMW version you choose your gear, you are in that gear. Many other systems still override you and change gears for you (like VW and Audi which people keep banging on about for some reason).

except you cant choose to have the car at half throttle but the RPMS at 5k. Sure there arent very many situations where you need this, but my point stands.

However at the end of the day it sounds like to you, Manual just means being in the gear you want when you want and for as long as you want. Thats just such a small part of a MT though. Not knocking how you look at it, i was just genuinly curious what MT means to you.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Poochie

No one is condescending anyone else; someone asked a question and others gave their opinion.. The end.

I just found out one of my male friends like fingers up his butt, during sex, from his angry girlfriend. I know, based on the graphic description, it's not my thing but I respect and accept his decision, same those that are into a DCT.

I just like that big, black stick shift over paddles..

That was a turn in the conversation I wasn't expecting haha.

👆🏻🍩

[BigKutta]

Originally Posted by JustChris

That was a turn in the conversation I wasn't expecting haha.

👆🏻🍩

MT and DCT debates all come down to dick size and manliness, so this evolution (or devolution) is not surprising...

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by Davil

DCT provides the best car control for people that grew up driving manual from day 1. To be able to get the most from the DCT this is a pre-requisite. If you grew up driving an auto or got your licence driving an auto you won't get it. You'll probably hate it. Americans (generally) are fairly new to manual transmissions and see the art of changing gears as a skill in itself as manual cars were so rare and not part of the culture. I think this is because it is learnt in later life rather than from day 1. There is minimal skill in the act of changing gears. If you can pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time you are over qualified. But I get some people see this as a challenge. Maybe patting your head and masturbating if that's your skill set?

The reason I have always hated automatics is that they make it much harder to control the car. The DCT to me was a revelation. Being able to be in the right gear at the right time so quickly is why it is great. You get better car control. The modern day training wheels nanny manuals are just marketing. That's the cold hard truth.

If you want a manual, get a proper one. This e46 CSL conversion looks amazing. The SMG was a well known turd avoided like the plague when it came out. This on the other hand is the goods. A _real_ old school manual in fitting with its era. Love it!

Drive a 0 mile m2c/MT and tell me there's no skill involved to get the car moving smoothly.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by BigKutta

MT and DCT debates all come down to dick size and manliness, so this evolution (or devolution) is not surprising...

It has nothing to do with dick size or machismo but it's easy to use that correlation when trolling insecure DCT owners, who feel the need to justify they manual-ness about their choice in drivetrain.

I know two women that can drive a manual, yet my sticky-finger friend mentioned can't, so there's that. There is nothing to it, once you get the hang.

For me, it's about choosing the right transmission for that particular model of vehicle; as a small, sporty, fast, RWD vehicle, with a locking diff, third pedal option just feels more apt and affords maximum modulation.

This debate is getting old and I kind of regret getting into it because it always end up in the same stalemate, so let's at least agree on that and leave it here, instead of getting into a perpetual never-ending cycle of manifestation/justification.

[MrMurkle]

Originally Posted by Poochie

It has nothing to do with dick size or machismo but it's easy to use that correlation when trolling insecure DCT owners, who feel the need to justify they manual-ness about their choice in drivetrain.

I know two women that can drive a manual, yet my sticky-finger friend mentioned can't, so there's that. There is nothing to it, once you get the hang.

For me, it's about choosing the right transmission for that particular model of vehicle; as a small, sporty, fast, RWD vehicle, with a locking diff, third pedal option just feels more apt and affords maximum modulation.

This debate is getting old and I kind of regret getting into it because it always end up in the same stalemate, so let's at least agree on that and leave it here, instead of getting into a perpetual never-ending cycle of manifestation/justification.

The m2c with dct is a perfect match. If you know anything about the S55 engine in general you will understand why a dct fits in better with that engine. And then if we factor driving daily these cars and commuting, sitting in traffic, stop start traffic in particular or even long motorway commutes and the lack of 7th gear in the MT you will see why the dct is superior. Yes you feel more in connection with the car and engine in a MT. It just doesn't suit the s55 as much as the dct. Drive a m4gt4 and you will understand. Why dont you think that car comes with a MT. In fact does the m4 gts even come in manual? To get the best out of the s55 engine dct is the way forward. But if you want to have lots of fun in an m2c and you get more enjoyment out if a manual then by all means get a MT just dont sit there and say it's better.

[Killed by Death]

MY TAKE: DCT is an automatic transmission. Excluding Porsche PDK it is the BEST auto on the market (More on that later).

I learned to drive in a VW bug and Dodge Dart with 3 in the tree. Unfortunately my father (RIP) was a practical man and knew nothing of heal toe. My friends likewise. One inherited a 67’ Corvette at 16 and sadly knew nothing. He enjoyed burnouts and went through no less than 3 clutches. However, I digress. You can’t learn heal toe if you know nothing of its existence. Sucks to be me as I owned some great manual cars. (Datsun 240z, Triumph TR7, Honda CRXs x 2, Mazda Miatas x 3, Porsche 987 Boxster & Porsche 981 Cayman).

Once aware of heal toe I tried mightily to learn with both Porsches but REALLY sucked at it. I know practice makes perfect right? No, Perfect practice makes perfect. I even hired a driving instructor to no avail. Some of us are just that uncoordinated but I continued to try. Since I sucked I never really enjoyed heal toe. However I still loved my manuals and never thought of buying anything else. Then DOOMSDAY occurred!!!! I completely destroyed my left knee and it never healed properly.

So, off to automatics I went kicking, screaming and PISSED OFF. Started out with an Audi TT 3.2 liter. Then came Porsche PDKs and BMW DCTs. Porsche PDKs are by far the best followed by DCTs. Sure my M2C kicks and bucks once in a while at low speed but I don’t care. I don’t care because it CRUSHES the alternative ZF. In BMW “Drivelogic” mode 3 DCT upshifts kick like a mule and its fun. In my experience the ZF doesn’t, that’s the difference. Otherwise the ZF is a very fine auto!

On a personal note I have three regrets in life.
1. Not finding my wife sooner and having her as my one and only!
2. Choosing college over becoming a Navy Rescue Swimmer
3. Not mastering heal toe :-(

LONG LIVE the MANUAL & NEVER take them or your health for granted!

Thanks for listening (Reading actually)

Stay safe my friends and God bless!

[JustChris]

The right choice is....the one you enjoy.

Socrates 4/4/2020

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I know practice makes perfect right? No, Perfect practice makes perfect. I even hired a driving instructor to no avail. Some of us are just that uncoordinated but I continued to try. Since I sucked I never really enjoyed heal toe.

This whole post is really good, but i'm definitely feeling you here. I'm good at heel and toeing, but I always feel like I could be better. Most of the time i do it and it works and the shock to the drivetrain is minimal, but sometimes i'll do it and it. is. perfection. I love going in for the double clutch too (clutch in, select neutral, clutch out, rev-match, clutch in, select lower gear, clutch out.) Modern cars always smooth things out a bit, but back when I had my AWD celica, it was super unforgiving, with a laggy 80's turbo engine and high shift effort. But when I would nail the perfect double clutch downshift in that thing there was zero friction moving between gears and zero changes to the car's inertia, just a change in sound as the engine RPM's suddenly got higher. Every time i got it perfectly right, I felt like a driving god.

But also, i fully admit this is a weird thing for people to like and there's absolutely nothing wrong with being like "yeaaahhh. i'm gonna skip that work and just have a perfect downshift...you know every single time, instead of just some of the time"

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Moflow

....there's absolutely nothing wrong with being like "yeaaahhh. i'm gonna skip that work and just have a perfect downshift...you know every single time, instead of just some of the time"

And no money shift errors. Did that once in my 240z

[Brandt51]

Can this thread just die already?