01-26-2014, 05:10 PM | #243 | |
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The M850i is evidence that BMW have got their mojo back when it comes to dynamic sports cars...
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01-26-2014, 05:26 PM | #244 | |
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My point was really that you can make some minor engineering changes and dual-purpose an engine to save costs. I think you knew that though.
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01-26-2014, 05:34 PM | #245 | |
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We don't know what BMW has up their sleeve yet, but we do know they've been investing heavily in turbocharger development. Have a look at the 1.5L I3 in the i8. I'm concerned about the choice to go I4 in the M2. When I first heard it, my head just about popped. I thought there was no way BMW could sell the M2 with an I4 when the M235i has the turbo I6, but now I'm not sure. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. I'm not cutting them any slack on it though. If the character of the engine sucks, I'll take my money elsewhere.
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01-26-2014, 05:54 PM | #246 |
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How do you think there could be? M235i has 330hp roughly and the M3 has 425hp. Do you really think they could fit a car in that gap without making it a worse purchase than the M235i or a better buy than the M3/4.
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01-26-2014, 07:34 PM | #247 | |
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Intuition and reading M tea leaves since 1999. There is a market for a 3000 lb. M2. M folks have been asking for such a car for a long time. It will cost more than an M235i but will be worth it to some people. I would not be surprised if it was nearly as quick as M3/4 in a straight line and even quicker on the road courses due to the lightweight. It may pirate some potential M3/4 buyers, but so what. The money goes in the same pockets. I think an M2 (M2CSL?) would serve research and development purposes in the design of a high powered 4 cylinder, just as they learned a lot developing the high revving s54, etc. I believe (though no one else here does) that this newly developed engine will be shared with the next -gen Z car. Besides being a marketing strategy, the M's are laboratories on wheels - building an M2 will be worth it to them as they can further experiment in the development of lightweight materials, suspension parts, brakes, steering, etc. I think they did just that with the 1M, i.e. as much as they could in the short time frame available. I probably didn't answer your question, but these are my opinions in the "game" of trying to predict BMW's next move. |
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01-26-2014, 08:27 PM | #249 | |
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01-27-2014, 07:38 AM | #250 | |
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Sage wisdom right here.
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01-27-2014, 08:07 AM | #251 | |
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I'm all for BMW letting HP take a back seat to handling and road holding, but there are limits to what the market will tolerate. Dropping in a gutless N/A I4 isn't an option. If anything, I think we'd rather see an engine like the S54 make a comeback, but again, that's not happening because of emissions and fuel economy requirements. Notes on specific output To back up my claim that there is no level of magic BMW M could use produce a naturally aspirated 2.0L I4 with anything close to 300 HP for the M2, have a look at this list of superlative specific-output engines from 2012. Here's what an M-developed N/A 2.0L I4 looks like at various levels of insane specific-output: Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 Ferrari 458 Italia 125 hp/L: 250 HP Lexus LFA 115 hp/L: 230 HP Audi RS5 Lamborghini LP570-4 Superleggera 108 hp/L: 216 HP Some have suggested they could increase the bore or stroke to increase displacement. I disagree that they'll do this, but here's what an M-developed N/A 2.3L I4 looks like at various levels of insane specific-output: Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 Ferrari 458 Italia 125 hp/L: 288 HP Lexus LFA 115 hp/L: 265 HP Audi RS5 Lamborghini LP570-4 Superleggera 108 hp/L: 248 HP Given that the price point for the M2 will likely come in under the M3/M4, I think it's unrealistic to expect the level of development investment required to reach Porsche or Ferrari levels of output. I believe they could reach some level between the Audi/Lamborghini and the Lexus LFA, but remember that the LFA is no longer produced, and Audi is going all forced-induction across the board because of the emissions and fuel economy requirements that I keep bringing up. An engine developed today must be usable for years to come in order to justify the investment. Like it or not, this is the context in which automobiles are developed. Hopefully this puts to bed the idea that there is a N/A M-car around the corner. It's simply too far from anything BMW is producing right now.
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01-27-2014, 09:37 AM | #252 |
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There will no longer be an N/A engine from BMW M. Or BMW for that matter.
Why continue to prolong the wake? Its far enough time to move on...
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01-27-2014, 10:04 AM | #253 |
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Cue the riots. Telling us what we already knew, and I, for one, am excited by it. But this is major news, and I think it will be polarizing.
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01-27-2014, 10:17 AM | #254 | |
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I'm so tired of hearing people cry about F/I.
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01-27-2014, 03:56 PM | #255 |
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01-27-2014, 04:36 PM | #256 |
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Would anybody be willing to do an engine swap if the M2 doesn't pack enough horses? Or would you're the purist and say no? P.S. Maybe it's like the Nissan gtr where if they actually added more horsepower, the 0-60 time would actually increase because it has to much initial power from 0 and the tires slip. It might be the same thing with the M2. Keeping that in mind, would you swap it? Or even drop a turbocharger in it?
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01-27-2014, 05:53 PM | #257 | |
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01-27-2014, 08:24 PM | #258 | ||
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The M2 is already going to be turbocharged
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01-27-2014, 08:49 PM | #259 | |
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01-28-2014, 09:46 AM | #260 |
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1M replacement could feature a detuned M4 engine and styling cues from the M235i Racing
At the international media launch of BMW's new 2 Series, company insiders hinted heavily at a full M division version of the two-door coupe. A spokesman confirmed that the 2 Series had been "configured to accept a [more powerful] engine." The M235i, a halfway house between a standard BMW production model and a full M division product, has a 326hp turbocharged six-cylinder engine, suggesting that a more powerful 2 Series could have as much as 380hp. The M2, which wouldn't arrive before 2016, would likely use a detuned version of the forthcoming M3 and M4 twin-turbocharged engine, which develops 430hp in those applications. http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=29291 |
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01-28-2014, 11:58 AM | #261 |
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For all you 4 cylinder skeptics/doubters... check out this bad boy.
http://www.enginelabs.com/videos/ind...00-horsepower/ |
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01-28-2014, 01:58 PM | #262 | |
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01-28-2014, 02:02 PM | #263 | |
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Word is the torque on that engine tripled in the span of 1000 RPM making it extremely difficult to drive effectively. The question is not how much peak HP it will make, but what the character will be. Turbo lag will ruin your day. I'm cautiously optimistic. Thus far, BMW has avoided designs that suffer from turbo lag. All trim levels of the N54, N55, and N20 have been very balanced, lag-free (relatively speaking) engines. When the F8x M3/4 hits the streets and third-party reviewers get their hands on it, we'll get a better sense of how good of a job BMW M has done reducing turbo lag while increasing output. The S55 represents a 100 HP jump over the standard N55 on which it is based. If they can achieve that increase without lag issues, I'll feel more confident in an I4 for the M2.
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01-28-2014, 02:20 PM | #264 |
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^ Great points regarding turbo lag on a high output 4-cylinder engine.
Another issue with 4-cylinder engines: 4-cylinder engines have a pause or dead spot between each power stroke, and 3-cylinder engines have even larger empty strokes. Thus neither will ever have the smoothness in power delivery of a 5-cylinder or larger engine that has overlapping power strokes. I don't think the weight benefits of a 3-cylinder or 4-cylinder engine outweigh the smoothness and non-pulsating delivery of power that is inherent to 5-cylinder and larger engines. It is only marketing, economics and regulation that puts these engines in road going sports cars. I don't think many sports car consumers if given the choice would ever chose the lighter but inferior engine configurations unless cost or simplicity were their primary selection factors. For racing, I would assume such configurations are only chosen when required by class/vehicle size requirements or when those extra 10's of pounds of weights are of absolute paramount importance. I have owned a TT-RS (2.5L Inline-5) and various Inline-6 BMW's and Flat-6 Porsches. In comparison to the 4-cylinder car's I have owned varying from standard 4-cylinder fare to a Subaru WRX and Mazda Miata, the 4-cylinder engined cars had noticeably rougher and less smooth/consistent power delivery. I have never driven a 4-cylinder car where the power felt "enjoyable" or "exhilarating" like a 5-cylinder or larger engine does. This is also totally irrelevant of whether a car is naturally aspirated or has a turbo, an no amount of advanced engineering can do a thing to change these basic characteristics of engine cylinder count. Can a 4-cylinder engine be great in a sports car? Sure it can, but it is never truly ideal even in great cars like the E30 M3 (done to meet racing class requirements). If a car is too small in physical size to contain an engine larger than a 4-cylinder then sure I can understand (original Lotus Elise for instance), but the 2-series is not a small car and is clearly designed as a platform to hold an Inline-6 or probably even larger engine. It is always a economic/hierarchical compromise IMHO for a car as large as the 2-series, and consequently there are people who are justified in not being thrilled by 4-cylinder engines being used in such "relatively large" sports cars. I don't think "fun/pure sports car" and 4-cylinder engine belong in the same sentence unless we are talking about something truly small like an Elise, Miata or Alpha 4C... or a homologation car like the E30. Like that pistonheads article suggests, a de-tuned S55 would truly satisfy everyone. The other brands do the same thing to great success. Or maybe to preserve the hierarchy BMW should just take the S55 and lop off 1 cylinder to create a 2.5L Inline-5 turbo to stick in the M2... if they can stomach it. |
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