Manual or DCT

akkando · 03-02-2020, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f31mtl

Both gearboxes are great, but DCT is an automatic. Get over it. I'm not sure why some people can't admit this.

In my m3 it doesn't automatically do much except avoid stalling when you're pulling away from a stop. If you just step on the gas you'll never get out of first gear and eventually hit fuel cutoff after redline.

akkando · 03-02-2020, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conissah

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///AVM

If, on the other hand, a driver's desire is to control shift points and where they live in the power band – as is my primary interest – then I respectfully disagree with your statement. DCT manual mode provides every but the ability of a true MT in stated regard.

///AVM

True, but even torque converter trannies can do this now. A pull of the left paddle or a push on the lever, and it's an instant down change. I agree that the BMW DCT, and even PDK, are automatics in the sense that they shift for you, but modern autos are light years ahead of autos from a decade ago, and that's what a lot of people don't quite get. I haven't driven a BMW DCT car, but the PDK is simply sublime, it's absolutely fantastic, by far the best auto I have ever driven with. Coming up to a corner on the brakes, it knows what gear I wanted to be in, downshifted for me, and was ready for me to get on the power exiting. The shifts were instantaneous, it quite literally blew my mind. Be that as it may, I don't think I'd ever pick a DCT/PDK car over a 6MT.

If I was trying to be the absolute fastest on the track, this is the only caveat, it would have to be a dual clutch. I cannot compete with the accuracy of a proper dual clutch, and rather than focusing on clutch operation and selecting the correct gear and shifting quickly, I could focus simply on driving the car and what it was doing. For the MOST fun, I would chose 6MT, and in 99% of scenarios I am glad I did chose the third pedal, but trying/training to be a racecar driver, the dual clutches are the way to go.

All of this is opinion though, and there are many reasons for choosing either. My father, for example, is a die hard manual guy, but he isn't getting any younger, and breaking his left leg twice definitely doesn't help things. He would be an advocate for a proper auto setup.

The difference between DCT and a torque converter auto is the DCT is an automated manual. It will roll back/forward and drive just a MT in manual mode.

My GF drove the m2 for the first time this weekend and it rolled back on her on a steep hill and she freaked out lol.

M2Cmtl · 03-02-2020, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akkando

In my m3 it doesn't automatically do much except avoid stalling when you're pulling away from a stop. If you just step on the gas you'll never get out of first gear and eventually hit fuel cutoff after redline.

The ZF doesn't shift if you put it in sport, a few gearboxes do this.

akkando · 03-02-2020, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f31mtl

Quote:

Originally Posted by akkando

In my m3 it doesn't automatically do much except avoid stalling when you're pulling away from a stop. If you just step on the gas you'll never get out of first gear and eventually hit fuel cutoff after redline.

The ZF doesn't shift if you put it in sport, a few gearboxes do this.

My m3 doesn't shift by default, which scares me to let anyone drive it who doesn't understand these cars because I don't want them revving it out in first gear while the engine is cold.

Moflow · 03-02-2020, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheoriginalM2

Hey ! Ofc i can understand what you're saying ! But the DCT its not really an automatic neither a manual transmition . Its both. Take a look Again Im not saying its auto or manual . In 2020 yes , you dont really need a 3rd petal to consider a car "manual" . Have a nice day bro !

I disagree pretty strongly, though admittedly this is kind of semantics.

Automatic: A transmission that is capable of changing gears automatically.
Manual: A transmission where gears must be changed manually.

How these transmissions accomplish this task will vary. What's confusing is that torque converters were for many years the only thing manufacturers built that could shift gears by themselves. Virtually all (stock) torque converters are automatics, but not all automatics have torque converters.

People with newer single and dual-clutch systems generally sought out and deliberately wanted those transmissions, often paying a hefty financial penalty in exchange for a transmission that is primarily designed not for ease of use, but rather for outright-maximum-attack-performance.

Those people do not like it when their transmissions are put the same category of old, slow torque converters, transmissions that are more about comfort than performance. And that sucks, I empathize with them. The latest Dual-Clutch PDK is fucking awesome and shares almost nothing with the 4-speed torque converter auto that I grew up with in my mom's Camry. However, there is one thing the 4-speed torque converter and the modern PDK share: The ability to change gears automatically.

So regarding modern dual clutch systems: Are they torque converters? no. Are they built primarily for comfort? no. Are they worse performing than the other optional transmission? no. Do they shift automatically? Yes. And that is literally the only thing "Automatic" implies in 2020.

M2Cmtl · 03-02-2020, 02:45 PM

what will we argue about when the DCT is gone

Conissah · 03-02-2020, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f31mtl

what will we argue about when the DCT is gone

S55 vs S58, which sounds MORE like a weed whacker.

ChrisK · 03-02-2020, 03:00 PM

So what do you call a MT that "automatically" blips the throttle? An automatic?! j/k

This whole DCT vs MT is old. Buy what you want - but please stop crapping on other peoples choices.

JCZ5 · 03-02-2020, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akkando

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conissah

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///AVM

If, on the other hand, a driver's desire is to control shift points and where they live in the power band – as is my primary interest – then I respectfully disagree with your statement. DCT manual mode provides every but the ability of a true MT in stated regard.

///AVM

True, but even torque converter trannies can do this now. A pull of the left paddle or a push on the lever, and it's an instant down change. I agree that the BMW DCT, and even PDK, are automatics in the sense that they shift for you, but modern autos are light years ahead of autos from a decade ago, and that's what a lot of people don't quite get. I haven't driven a BMW DCT car, but the PDK is simply sublime, it's absolutely fantastic, by far the best auto I have ever driven with. Coming up to a corner on the brakes, it knows what gear I wanted to be in, downshifted for me, and was ready for me to get on the power exiting. The shifts were instantaneous, it quite literally blew my mind. Be that as it may, I don't think I'd ever pick a DCT/PDK car over a 6MT.

If I was trying to be the absolute fastest on the track, this is the only caveat, it would have to be a dual clutch. I cannot compete with the accuracy of a proper dual clutch, and rather than focusing on clutch operation and selecting the correct gear and shifting quickly, I could focus simply on driving the car and what it was doing. For the MOST fun, I would chose 6MT, and in 99% of scenarios I am glad I did chose the third pedal, but trying/training to be a racecar driver, the dual clutches are the way to go.

All of this is opinion though, and there are many reasons for choosing either. My father, for example, is a die hard manual guy, but he isn't getting any younger, and breaking his left leg twice definitely doesn't help things. He would be an advocate for a proper auto setup.

The difference between DCT and a torque converter auto is the DCT is an automated manual. It will roll back/forward and drive just a MT in manual mode.

My GF drove the m2 for the first time this weekend and it rolled back on her on a steep hill and she freaked out lol.

Doesn't the M2 have 3 seconds of hill assist?

AlpsRider · 03-02-2020, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCZ5

Doesn't the M2 have 3 seconds of hill assist?

It only works if it is in gear with the clutch in.

cncmastr · 03-02-2020, 03:56 PM

TLDR what's your goal with either trannies?

Conissah · 03-02-2020, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cncmastr

TLDR what's your goal with either trannies?

At one point or another, they'll be blown. Life goal right there, blowing trannies.

aeroglava · 03-02-2020, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conissah

Life goal right there, blowing trannies.

Might be a life goal for some, but who am I to judge.

Moflow · 03-02-2020, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisK

So what do you call a MT that "automatically" blips the throttle? An automatic?! j/k

This whole DCT vs MT is old. Buy what you want - but please stop crapping on other peoples choices.

Heh, i'd probably call it a manual with autoblipping.

And just to be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing either/any transmission. My only beef is with people mislabeling what they have and even then, we're talking "tiny internal eye roll" type annoyance and nothing more.

///MCollection · 03-02-2020, 05:17 PM

I really DO understand people loving a manual so excuse the clutchless love

I class anything with a torque converter as an auto and DCT as a clutchless manual, that's not saying it's so just how I term them.

I always used to drive manuals as I found the automatics very err dumb and didn't do what I thought they should but what they thought they should!. I wanted a 335d and as it's an auto only that's what I had and after that I have to admit using a clutch is just one more thing I can't be bothered with unless I have too.

My fiancée borrowed my 335d and pretty much straight away her manual was gone and an auto arrived. Now years later we have the f85 which is a ZF 8 speed auto and a dct m2c and a dct m4. In manual mode both box types change when I want and are equally as fast and both are so smooth. The dct in the M2C quite often if driven calmly has undetectable changes and that is I guess why I love the auto/clutchless manuals. When I don't feel the love and just want to commute there easy but when I want to get a wiggle on and express some emotion the dct and auto can achieve this with ease.

I also think these boxes suit my location which involves some narrow small roads, when following people who have no depth perception I'm not changing gear every few hundred metres when they stop or slow. If it's late and the roads are empty I can work it as I want to. I may feel differently with different roads and maybe that's one reason why were all so set on what we drive, it's where we drive them!

I've had manual and smg e36 m3 and manual was great, smg was woeful. The e46 m3 smg was better but still manual all the way. e90 m3 was where I started to get torn and it was 50/50 then onto the f's in an m I will always go dct.

One thing I would say is with the f85 auto programmed to mimic a dct it's not as good as if they let it be the auto it is most noticeably when your manoeuvring.

lastly I do own 2 manuals so I'm no hater

AlpsRider · 03-02-2020, 06:45 PM

Everyone has their own ideas on automatics. To me a slush bucket tranny is a hydrolic automatic. A DCT transmission is direct gear automatic. If it shifts for you it is a form of an automatic. Even in manual mode you can't feather the clutch to stop the car from jerking at a very inopportune time. DCTs are great but they shift automatically.

One of my pet peeves is when I'm looking for a car in autotrader and I specify manual transmission and sometimes a DCT or DSG or whatever they call them will make it through the filter because someone didn't know the difference between an automatic and a manual transmission.

akkando · 03-02-2020, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCZ5

Quote:

Originally Posted by akkando

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conissah

Quote:

Originally Posted by ///AVM

If, on the other hand, a driver's desire is to control shift points and where they live in the power band – as is my primary interest – then I respectfully disagree with your statement. DCT manual mode provides every but the ability of a true MT in stated regard.

///AVM

True, but even torque converter trannies can do this now. A pull of the left paddle or a push on the lever, and it's an instant down change. I agree that the BMW DCT, and even PDK, are automatics in the sense that they shift for you, but modern autos are light years ahead of autos from a decade ago, and that's what a lot of people don't quite get. I haven't driven a BMW DCT car, but the PDK is simply sublime, it's absolutely fantastic, by far the best auto I have ever driven with. Coming up to a corner on the brakes, it knows what gear I wanted to be in, downshifted for me, and was ready for me to get on the power exiting. The shifts were instantaneous, it quite literally blew my mind. Be that as it may, I don't think I'd ever pick a DCT/PDK car over a 6MT.

If I was trying to be the absolute fastest on the track, this is the only caveat, it would have to be a dual clutch. I cannot compete with the accuracy of a proper dual clutch, and rather than focusing on clutch operation and selecting the correct gear and shifting quickly, I could focus simply on driving the car and what it was doing. For the MOST fun, I would chose 6MT, and in 99% of scenarios I am glad I did chose the third pedal, but trying/training to be a racecar driver, the dual clutches are the way to go.

All of this is opinion though, and there are many reasons for choosing either. My father, for example, is a die hard manual guy, but he isn't getting any younger, and breaking his left leg twice definitely doesn't help things. He would be an advocate for a proper auto setup.

The difference between DCT and a torque converter auto is the DCT is an automated manual. It will roll back/forward and drive just a MT in manual mode.

My GF drove the m2 for the first time this weekend and it rolled back on her on a steep hill and she freaked out lol.

Doesn't the M2 have 3 seconds of hill assist?

Yes but it doesn't engage if you don't come to a complete stop, which I don't think she did. I remember her wondering why I come to a complete stop at the top of steep hills that have a stop sign. I explained to her The hill assist. Also the car doesn't love going 1mph in 2nd gear then trying to get over the top of a steep hill, it lugs the engine, and switching to first manually feels rough on the transmission, so coming to a complete stop to get hill assist and a start from first treats the car right and makes everything easy.

Of course none of this made sense to her until she drove it for herself. She grew up some place flat so the SF hills + M car is new experience for her.

Poochie · 03-02-2020, 09:36 PM

Great, according to this thread, now even transmissions are gender-neutral..

DCT was really born an automatic but it "identifies" and a manual

Jeez..

bubsterino · 03-02-2020, 10:30 PM

i'm not sure if i'm plagiarizing from earlier in this thread (or another one), but i feel like there are cases of DCT owners wishing they had gotten the manual, but never the other way around. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

KevinM · 03-02-2020, 11:05 PM

And so it continues...

I'll just drop this here for the the first 30 seconds of comic relief.

And, no disrespect for anyone's choice of transmission, but save the manuals and all that. They are almost dead, so buy them while you can (if you care).

fullstack · 03-03-2020, 01:25 AM

On the road, twisties or track, I enjoy the three pedal dance. To me, more involvement = greater the reward. I can appreciate a performance machine with a performance gear box but only a car with a mt makes me feel like it was built for me to be sitting in that driver's seat.

Davil · 03-03-2020, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poochie

Great, according to this thread, now even transmissions are gender-neutral..

DCT was really born an automatic but it "identifies" and a manual

Jeez..

Don't know where the gender thing comes in, but yes, I have to use the handbrake in my DCT getting out of my driveway. I'm just glad the car actually has a handbrake. Maybe we can have a handbrake thread. Before "driver aids" I would swear at people that didn't use their handbrake and come rolling back at me on hills. You young guys probably haven't experienced this with your fandangled automated manual gearboxes that you think are actually manual.

Long live the handbrake.

03-02-2020, 02:45 PM	#204
M2Cmtl Major 925 Rep 1,158 Posts Drives: 21 Q7 & 22 4XE Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Montreal iTrader: (0)	what will we argue about when the DCT is gone __________________ 2020 M2C 24.04.2020 delivery - Sold 24.08.22
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03-02-2020, 03:00 PM	#206
ChrisK Major General 4455 Rep 7,594 Posts Drives: '19 M2C Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chicagoland iTrader: (7) Garage List 2019 BMW M2C [7.00] 2015 Porsche Macan S [0.00]	So what do you call a MT that "automatically" blips the throttle? An automatic?! j/k This whole DCT vs MT is old. Buy what you want - but please stop crapping on other peoples choices. __________________ www.ReTuneTheDeTune.com 2019 M2 Competition (Sunset Orange)
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03-02-2020, 03:56 PM	#209
cncmastr Colonel 1614 Rep 2,421 Posts Drives: E30 M3 Cecotto, F85, G05, G07, Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Outside Atlanta iTrader: (3) Garage List 2018 X5 M [10.00] 2020 M2 CS [10.00] 2005 BMW X5 4.8is [10.00] 2006 BMW M3 [10.00]	TLDR what's your goal with either trannies? __________________
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03-02-2020, 05:17 PM	#213
///MCollection First Lieutenant 184 Rep 364 Posts Drives: M2C X5M M4 Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: Southwest UK iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 BMW M4 [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [10.00] 2017 BMW X5M [0.00]	I really DO understand people loving a manual so excuse the clutchless love I class anything with a torque converter as an auto and DCT as a clutchless manual, that's not saying it's so just how I term them. I always used to drive manuals as I found the automatics very err dumb and didn't do what I thought they should but what they thought they should!. I wanted a 335d and as it's an auto only that's what I had and after that I have to admit using a clutch is just one more thing I can't be bothered with unless I have too. My fiancée borrowed my 335d and pretty much straight away her manual was gone and an auto arrived. Now years later we have the f85 which is a ZF 8 speed auto and a dct m2c and a dct m4. In manual mode both box types change when I want and are equally as fast and both are so smooth. The dct in the M2C quite often if driven calmly has undetectable changes and that is I guess why I love the auto/clutchless manuals. When I don't feel the love and just want to commute there easy but when I want to get a wiggle on and express some emotion the dct and auto can achieve this with ease. I also think these boxes suit my location which involves some narrow small roads, when following people who have no depth perception I'm not changing gear every few hundred metres when they stop or slow. If it's late and the roads are empty I can work it as I want to. I may feel differently with different roads and maybe that's one reason why were all so set on what we drive, it's where we drive them! I've had manual and smg e36 m3 and manual was great, smg was woeful. The e46 m3 smg was better but still manual all the way. e90 m3 was where I started to get torn and it was 50/50 then onto the f's in an m I will always go dct. One thing I would say is with the f85 auto programmed to mimic a dct it's not as good as if they let it be the auto it is most noticeably when your manoeuvring. lastly I do own 2 manuals so I'm no hater
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03-02-2020, 06:45 PM	#214
AlpsRider Brigadier General 2865 Rep 3,844 Posts Drives: M2 Competition, LBB, 6MT Join Date: May 2015 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	Everyone has their own ideas on automatics. To me a slush bucket tranny is a hydrolic automatic. A DCT transmission is direct gear automatic. If it shifts for you it is a form of an automatic. Even in manual mode you can't feather the clutch to stop the car from jerking at a very inopportune time. DCTs are great but they shift automatically. One of my pet peeves is when I'm looking for a car in autotrader and I specify manual transmission and sometimes a DCT or DSG or whatever they call them will make it through the filter because someone didn't know the difference between an automatic and a manual transmission. Last edited by AlpsRider; 03-02-2020 at 06:54 PM..
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03-02-2020, 09:36 PM	#216
Poochie Luxury at the redline :) 9108 Rep 7,563 Posts Drives: 2016 M2 Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: NYC iTrader: (3)	Great, according to this thread, now even transmissions are gender-neutral.. DCT was really born an automatic but it "identifies" and a manual Jeez..
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03-02-2020, 10:30 PM	#217
bubsterino Banned 171 Rep 436 Posts Drives: none Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	i'm not sure if i'm plagiarizing from earlier in this thread (or another one), but i feel like there are cases of DCT owners wishing they had gotten the manual, but never the other way around. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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03-02-2020, 11:05 PM	#218
KevinM Brigadier General 2937 Rep 3,286 Posts Drives: 2002 M5;2007 M Coupe;2020 M2C Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Tucson iTrader: (0) Garage List 2020 M2 Competition [10.00] 2007 E86 M coupe [8.38] 2002 E39 M5 [9.00]	And so it continues... I'll just drop this here for the the first 30 seconds of comic relief. And, no disrespect for anyone's choice of transmission, but save the manuals and all that. They are almost dead, so buy them while you can (if you care). __________________ 2020 F87 M2C Hockenheim Silver/MT 2002 E39 M5 Sterling Gray/Caramel 2007 E86 Z4M Coupe Silver Gray/Black 2021 Kia Telluride (hauler)
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03-03-2020, 01:25 AM	#219
fullstack First Lieutenant 338 Rep 359 Posts Drives: around in circles. Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Vancouver iTrader: (0)	On the road, twisties or track, I enjoy the three pedal dance. To me, more involvement = greater the reward. I can appreciate a performance machine with a performance gear box but only a car with a mt makes me feel like it was built for me to be sitting in that driver's seat.
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