05-21-2021, 11:26 AM | #90 |
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I love DCT but I wouldn't try to claim it is a manual transmission. It is just the best style of automatic transmission because it it is so versatile and gives the option to drive it like a manual or a traditional automatic.
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05-21-2021, 11:47 AM | #91 | |
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A traditional automatic has a torque converter, planetary gear sets, and a hydraulic system of valves to squeeze bands to effect gear ratio changes. A traditional manual uses a spring loaded clutch plate, and 2 shafts with gears and synchros with forks activated by levers to join different gears to effect gear ratio changes. The M-DCT uses a dual interleaved clutch, and extra shafts such that the next gear can be pre-staged. I assume it uses hydraulic valves to slide the forks to change gears. Both the ZF-8 and the M-DCT rely heavily on SW programming for fast smooth operation. Both are extremely fast shifting but you can feel the torque converter smoothing out the torque change, such as comparing a U to a V.
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05-21-2021, 01:20 PM | #92 |
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05-21-2021, 02:24 PM | #96 |
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As stated above it has 2 clutches! You just don't see the clutch pedal. In fact a guy named BorgWarner hides under the hood and presses the clutch pedal in every time you hit a paddle.
See https://m5carblog.blogspot.com/2013/...nsmission.html for a detailed description.
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05-22-2021, 12:03 AM | #99 | |
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But also, a traditional manual has to be shifted manually. A traditional automatic can shift gears automatically, just like a DCT. I'd argue that "manual" and "automatic" imply that these transmissions are operated in a specific way, rather than that they function in a specific manner. |
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05-22-2021, 12:29 AM | #100 | |
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What makes an automatic transmission automatic is the requirement that it shall be able to shift by itself. How it does that is of no consequence. Engineers spec a transmission by requirements like: The transmission shall be able to shift automatically. The transmission shall be able to complete an upshift in xxx ms. The transmission shall be able to complete a downshift in xxx ms. The transmission shall have a manual mode. The transmission shall have n gears with the following ratios... etc... HOW those requirements are met are purely details. I could design and sell BMW a Triple Gnome Transmission - M TGT. It could shift even faster than DCT. It might even have gnome-operated clutches inside, but who cares? It's still an automatic. If you treat the transmissions as black boxes, it's completely clear to anyone with basic reasoning skills that DCT and automatic transmissions are functionally equivalent in terms of user requirements. The DCT is just a higher performance version. If BMW and Getrag never told anyone how it operated internally, every review would praise "the automatic transmission" and it would make no difference to the user. This isn't DCT bashing, it's just fact. DCT is better than the manual except to those who have a fondness for such an anachronism. Last edited by chris719; 05-22-2021 at 12:37 AM.. |
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05-22-2021, 12:35 AM | #101 | |
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05-22-2021, 12:39 AM | #102 | |
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I just truly don't understand why people insist on defining a transmission by what's under the covers and not how it functions. I know torque converters gave automatics a stigma, but we should be past that. I would say that if I made a robotic attachment that shifted a 6MT and actuated the clutch to shift for you, it would convert a manual to an automatic. DCT can't shift without electricity and a MCU running at least 10k lines of code. Hard to argue it's manual... Last edited by chris719; 05-22-2021 at 12:49 AM.. |
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05-22-2021, 12:54 AM | #103 |
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05-22-2021, 02:58 AM | #104 | |
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J/K guys... Last edited by Poochie; 05-22-2021 at 03:08 AM.. |
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05-22-2021, 06:09 AM | #105 |
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05-22-2021, 09:06 AM | #107 | |
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05-22-2021, 12:19 PM | #108 |
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05-22-2021, 01:28 PM | #109 |
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I don't like manual as traffic doesn't flow anymore but I get that people like the involvement and that's fine each to there own.
An automatic is in my mind different from a clutchless manual and is a completely different drive. My f85 is an automatic and the m2 a dct. Each has pro's and cons. What I love about dct is I have 3 choices, full auto for when I'm stuck behind doodling chumps, stick sequential for when I get the wheel crossed over and am confused or paddles for Xbox mode. I chose a dct for this reason and am glad I did. I understand the people who choose manual as they do have that raw control and that's great but people should not knock dct until they try it and vice versa (unusual as most have driven a manual). Dct should not be compared to earlier ssg or smg as they were shocking but a vital step in bmw getting it right. We used to boil water over a flame now we have kettles, progress is mostly a good thing and I'd rather the car took the load so in stop start traffic I don't have to bother. But if someone wants to go get a pan and boil some water that's there choice and not something I would chastise. |
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