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      10-15-2020, 09:29 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Well? You're supposedly oozing with real world experience on the 'business' and you have nothing to add countering my claim but humble bragging?

So tell me, how are you certain whom is assigned what specific job at a franchise dealership service department?

I purposely refrained from expanding on the thought, which I will continue to
Hmm..

Great, thanx for valuable contribution..
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      10-15-2020, 10:38 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
in theory, one would assume they would summons their highly knowledgeable "Master Technician" for an intricate job like this but from want I've learn, in practice, anyone clocked in for work, that has a minimum of a ASE certification and read a shop manual, gets the ticket that day. It's a roll of dice, the foreman uses the manpower he has..
When I used to work as a BMW technician a long time ago, on my first year on the job, I worked on an Alpina Z8. It was the first time I've ever seen that car before in person. We just pick out the repair order right out of his box and whoever was up next pulled the next order. Now, I get the team leader and shop foreman's side of things where handing out special tasks to certain Master BMW Level 1 technicians can get techs upset (not fair that a few guys get the hard jobs and others just get "gravy" jobs only when it's flat rate). The dealership I worked at didn't care at all if you stayed ASE certified or not. Actual BMW hands on training never really happened for anyone that was under 60+ flag hours a week. Just all online video training and a quiz at the end that you can keep taking again if you fail until you do pass. Now, IDK if it was just the BMW dealer that I worked at that was like this, but I'd assume many other dealers are similar. Just something that I've experienced in the past.

As nice as the 3 year service for free is, I really don't feel all that comfortable when someone else touches my cars. Even if it is for something as small as an oil change.
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      10-15-2020, 11:32 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmhl10 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
in theory, one would assume they would summons their highly knowledgeable "Master Technician" for an intricate job like this but from want I've learn, in practice, anyone clocked in for work, that has a minimum of a ASE certification and read a shop manual, gets the ticket that day. It's a roll of dice, the foreman uses the manpower he has..
The dealership I worked at didn't care at all if you stayed ASE certified or not. Actual BMW hands on training never really happened for anyone that was under 60+ flag hours a week
Thanks for your feedback and contrary to what some might assume, I'm fully aware how how many rungs up the ladder the a service tech are required to climb, in order to earn their wings and how typical service repair is assigned.

Franchise dealerships hire, train and tier their employees depending on their prior experience and expertise.

The most popular training program for aspiring, entry-level BMW techs is a class called BMW STEP (Service Technician Education Program).

Which is a seven month course that specialize students repairs BMW vehicles ranging from the 2 Series to the M cars. Right out of technical college, with just a ASE certificate, you can enter this program and be hired as a full time dealership service employee.

There are different levels of the STEP program; one is a natural seven month course, which I previously mention, being considered the most prestigious and train the students to be on their way to earn their "Master Technician" credentials.

Other and current techs with prior mechanical experience can earn their master technician title, in a shorter time period, by accomplishing an abridged version of STEP, called STEP2, in less than eight weeks.

Either way, the ultimate goal for all is the higher designation, a increase pay grade or take their newfound talent to an independent field.

Regardless, most dealership are like a revolving door; employees start on STEP on, earn their experience and move to greener pastures. Master Techs are far and few in-between and are usually on call for when a "STEP 1" employee needs assistance with a complicated job.

However, are lion share of work is allotted to STEP 1 techs. Not that they necessarily lacks experience but because their is abundance of them available. Which, as a result, are more than likely going to be the ones that are going be R&Ring your roof..

More information on this subject is here:

https://www.bmwstep.com/about-bmw-st...-requirements/
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      10-16-2020, 08:25 AM   #114
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I actually was a STEP graduate for the 6 month program. Is it changed to 7 months now? Was a harder program to get in than the Porsche program.
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      10-16-2020, 08:50 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
That's not how it works. Been in the business since 1992.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Well? You're supposedly oozing with real world experience on the 'business' and you have nothing to add countering my claim but humble bragging?

So tell me, how are you certain whom is assigned what specific job at a franchise dealership service department?
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Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
Well, I was only replying to your reply to my post so in order to avoid turning it into an argument I purposely refrained from expanding on the thought, which I will continue to do. If you want to decide you have it figured out, that's fine with me. I have nothing to prove to you, it doesn't pay well enough.
Higgs, that is lame.
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      10-16-2020, 09:42 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbomeister View Post
The only tiny imperfections on the whole roof are on the left side in the middle almost . But you cannot see them even if you are close to the car in real life . You may see the "imperfection" but when you move a little hit and changes colour , seems normal . Honestly , i dont care about those imperfections , are so so tiny , in a roof that seems so beautiful , racing flag boxes , making great contrast with the colour of the car.
Each roof is different then , so each roof is unique . But , those imperfections , really are so few and small , but also cool since it seems like its handmade and they made each roof different ! It doesnt affect the car image at all !
[PICTURE]
[PICTURE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedoniste View Post
Here is mine (car is a week 39 production):
[VIDEO]

And with a " enhancing " filter
[VIDEO]
I didn't check the passenger side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVMYCS View Post
US spec production week 40 build - I have imperfections.
Driver side "S" imperfections roughly 3x8
Passenger side "U" x2 imperfections roughly 3x4 and 2x3
Glad for you all that the imperfections on your M2 CS cars are only minor and quite discreet as regards visibility.

It appears that some M2 CS cars are not affected:
Name:  M2_CS_CFRP_Roof_Poll.jpg
Views: 367
Size:  78.5 KB
(source: here - poll thread: here)

For your info: Ferrari Enzo CFRP hood for Michael Schumacher back in 2003.

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      10-16-2020, 01:53 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by kepler View Post
Higgs, that is lame.
I'm ok with that. I really only have time to pop in and see the conversation. Just look at all the words you guys are typing. Certainly don't have the stamina for that anymore! One liners only for me, thanks.

Sorry to let you down.
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      10-16-2020, 04:17 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedoniste View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedoniste View Post
I didn't see any problem on the CS I bought but it was raining. I will pick up the car on Wednesday and I hope to be quickly able to inspect the roof under direct sunlight. I will post here asap my feedback. Thanks for creating this thread
Here is mine (car is a week 39 production):




And with a " enhancing " filter


I didn't check the passenger side.
I checked tonight the roof and I can now confirm that mine has imperfections on the driver side only.
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      10-16-2020, 04:34 PM   #119
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Looks to be a very similar defect in approximately the same location? It's really strange. I hope one day BMW records a bit about the challenges and what we are seeing as "defects" in the roof.
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      10-16-2020, 04:51 PM   #120
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My further 2cents about the construction. Watching the CFRP roof creation video you will notice similar defects in the standard carbon roof. These defects are present until the material is placed under a large press. The M2CS roof with it's "honeycomb" center structure would/could not go through the same pressing process. It this process that stretches the material and removes the defects from loose regions in the material. The M2CS roof is likely handmade for a large part of the process and would need a special tool to strectch the material and sandwich the center structure without destroying it at the same time.

Try stretching out a net so that all cross sections are equal. Similar concept with a course woven material. If it gets stretched too much in any direction it can sometimes be very difficult to undo. Align the best you can and spray it with a ton the clear, or tinted clear like mentioned previously.

I think we are seeing ripples in the fabric from not lying perfectly flat or not being cut to take into account the final curvature of the panel. Try nicely wrapping a ball with a piece of notebook papar
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      10-16-2020, 05:15 PM   #121
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      10-16-2020, 05:33 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
My further 2cents about the construction. Watching the CFRP roof creation video you will notice similar defects in the standard carbon roof. These defects are present until the material is placed under a large press. The M2CS roof with it's "honeycomb" center structure would/could not go through the same pressing process. It this process that stretches the material and removes the defects from loose regions in the material. The M2CS roof is likely handmade for a large part of the process and would need a special tool to strectch the material and sandwich the center structure without destroying it at the same time.

Try stretching out a net so that all cross sections are equal. Similar concept with a course woven material. If it gets stretched too much in any direction it can sometimes be very difficult to undo. Align the best you can and spray it with a ton the clear, or tinted clear like mentioned previously.

I think we are seeing ripples in the fabric from not lying perfectly flat or not being cut to take into account the final curvature of the panel. Try nicely wrapping a ball with a piece of notebook papar
You're undoubtedly on the general right track in describing the issue. Root cause analysis would probably suggest the manufacturing process wasn't fully fleshed out with the design approval. Wonder how much custom tooling (mandrels etc.) was required for this one-off roof design - or did they reuse tooling having similar/identical shape and dimension requirements for F87?

Even this limited-run vehicle will realize gross receipts in the ballpark of $200M USD - not a big account for a mass-producer of cars, to be sure, but not chump change either.
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      10-16-2020, 06:17 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george.ax View Post
Might be my imagination, but I'm perceiving some commonality in the imperfections on the vehicles shown on this board and in some of the reviews. Majority seem to be in the middle of the roof (front-to-back), close to the edge (L-R), and generally running "long" (high aspect ratio) L-R rather than squarish or random blotches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
Looks to be a very similar defect in approximately the same location? It's really strange. I hope one day BMW records a bit about the challenges and what we are seeing as "defects" in the roof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by medphysdave View Post
My further 2cents about the construction. Watching the CFRP roof creation video you will notice similar defects in the standard carbon roof. These defects are present until the material is placed under a large press. The M2CS roof with its "honeycomb" center structure would/could not go through the same pressing process. It this process that stretches the material and removes the defects from loose regions in the material. The M2CS roof is likely handmade for a large part of the process and would need a special tool to stretch the material and sandwich the center structure without destroying it at the same time.
Try stretching out a net so that all cross sections are equal. Similar concept with a course woven material. If it gets stretched too much in any direction it can sometimes be very difficult to undo. Align the best you can and spray it with a ton the clear, or tinted clear like mentioned previously.
I think we are seeing ripples in the fabric from not lying perfectly flat or not being cut to take into account the final curvature of the panel. Try nicely wrapping a ball with a piece of notebook papar
Affirmative. Imperfections reported so far: looks like a pattern (no pun intended).



On the M2 CS on display in Los Angeles (Autumn 2019), there were also some 'raclette' sections closer to the windscreen:
Name:  M2_CS_CFRP_Roof_05.jpg
Views: 292
Size:  148.4 KB
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      10-16-2020, 07:24 PM   #124
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Does the roof bow inward with respect to where the corners start at the front and rear window? If yes, then the material would have to pinch in a bit near the apex of the curve. One major defect at the apex or a few minor defects if you try to spread it out. This could be a roof pattern error that wasn't remedied.
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      10-16-2020, 07:44 PM   #125
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I couldn't drive that off the lot looking like that, would drive me crazy 🤯
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      10-16-2020, 08:29 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Affirmative. Imperfections reported so far: looks like a pattern (no pun intended).



On the M2 CS on display in Los Angeles (Autumn 2019), there were also some 'raclette' sections closer to the windscreen:
Attachment 2439451
"Raclette" - a great and apt European descriptor (though a pretty dire outcome for the roof!) Think I'll dub my American Beauty the "Classic Van" look ..
Attached Images
 
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      10-16-2020, 08:33 PM   #127
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"Raclette" - a great and apt European descriptor (though a pretty dire outcome for the roof!) Think I'll dub my American Beauty the "Classic Van" look ..
We should get a free pair with every purchase
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      10-16-2020, 08:53 PM   #128
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a pair of rigid anti-pronation inserts and they might make some decent driving shoes
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      10-17-2020, 10:15 PM   #129
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Ran into this on a youtube video I was watching, stuck out once you know where it is. Looks like same area as some of the other cars.

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      10-17-2020, 10:42 PM   #130
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We most assuredly are seeing a trend. In hindsight it's not surprising the production issue would be more or less consistent from unit to unit. Occurring at the assembly level and not at the CF sheet formation level.
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      10-18-2020, 12:37 PM   #131
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      10-18-2020, 01:00 PM   #132
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One of my thoughts is this is part of the normal curvature of the roof shifting the material as evidenced in the videos and is somehow more difficult or more visible either because of the larger weave pattern or the structural sandwich layers unique to this roof construction.
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