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      09-11-2020, 12:09 PM   #45
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None of these comparisons are really apples to apples.

2021 M2 CS DCT vs GT4 PDK would be closer.

Even more interesting will be the 2023 M2 CS on the Z4/Supra platform with the S58 twin turbo vs a 2023 Cayman GT4 flat six...both would also be interesting with a hybrid performance motor to the front wheels while getting the new engines most power to the rear...

By '25 600whp will be the norm on these cars after tunes and at that point it makes mechanical sense to put power to all wheels for traction like the upcoming G87 M4 CS and sadly i think that pure RWDs aren't great for businesses...thus the limited 200 unit 2023 Supra GRMNs will be RWD with S58s and BMW 7DCTs.

More and more the manufacturers are offering only offering "lite" versions with RWD manuals so they can price their flagships higher.

Either way we the consumer win because 3.0s 0-60 will be where the automakers will have to compete at for a ~$100k flagship 2 seater supercar killer...
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      09-11-2020, 02:35 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
None of these comparisons are really apples to apples.

2021 M2 CS DCT vs GT4 PDK would be closer.

Even more interesting will be the 2023 M2 CS on the Z4/Supra platform with the S58 twin turbo vs a 2023 Cayman GT4 flat six...both would also be interesting with a hybrid performance motor to the front wheels while getting the new engines most power to the rear...

By '25 600whp will be the norm on these cars after tunes and at that point it makes mechanical sense to put power to all wheels for traction like the upcoming G87 M4 CS and sadly i think that pure RWDs aren't great for businesses...thus the limited 200 unit 2023 Supra GRMNs will be RWD with S58s and BMW 7DCTs.

More and more the manufacturers are offering only offering "lite" versions with RWD manuals so they can price their flagships higher.

Either way we the consumer win because 3.0s 0-60 will be where the automakers will have to compete at for a ~$100k flagship 2 seater supercar killer...
The Supra is getting the S58? I don't think so. Also, why is DCT vs PDK a better comparison vs manual?
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      09-11-2020, 03:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by robopp View Post
The Supra is getting the S58? I don't think so. Also, why is DCT vs PDK a better comparison vs manual?
https://www.thedrive.com/news/34752/...-engine-report

Takes out driver error and in a straight up drag race they are faster than manual / highest power models will be automatics.
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      09-11-2020, 07:14 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by robopp View Post
The Supra is getting the S58? I don't think so. Also, why is DCT vs PDK a better comparison vs manual?
https://www.thedrive.com/news/34752/...-engine-report

Takes out driver error and in a straight up drag race they are faster than manual / highest power models will be automatics.
Quote from the first few sentences of the article - "First thing's first—yes, you should take this potential update with a grain of salt, because like any anonymously sourced report it could turn out to be bogus." It's not going to get a S58. Zero chance.
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      09-12-2020, 03:13 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robopp View Post
Quote from the first few sentences of the article - "First thing's first—yes, you should take this potential update with a grain of salt, because like any anonymously sourced report it could turn out to be bogus." It's not going to get a S58. Zero chance.
The DCT is the most unbelievable part, the M3/M4 don't get a S58/DCT combo but they're going to have it for a limited run Supra? And they're going to get the full Competition tuned engine in RWD when every other vehicle has it paired with AWD and the ZF 8HP?
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      09-12-2020, 10:35 AM   #50
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Having owned an M2C and now a 718 GT4 I'd say both cars are amazing. Each in there own way. Drag racing them side by side does neither car justice. Both punch above there class on track too. Just got back from 2 days at Watkins's Glen with the GT4 and I was consistently 3-4s faster than I was in my M2C. That said I also gave another M2C a point by or two out there. I love my GT4 but also loved hauling 4 extra wheels in my M2C and being comfortable for the 4-5hr drive. I read many of these comparison threads. Rather than comparing, appreciate what each brings to the table. Can't go wrong with either.
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      09-14-2020, 09:12 AM   #51
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I also have my name down on a GT4 RS because as much as I enjoy manual, PDK really shows you what the pinnacle and epitome of a dual clutch is and really don’t care much for the ZF8 that is proliferating every car. Nothing special about it if you’ve driven a good dual clutch.
When you get the RS, you will need to change your forum handle though.
Maybe something like LeftFootBraking is you want to stay on the cool side of things.
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      09-14-2020, 09:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by compguy36 View Post
Having owned an M2C and now a 718 GT4 I'd say both cars are amazing. Each in there own way. Drag racing them side by side does neither car justice. Both punch above there class on track too. Just got back from 2 days at Watkins's Glen with the GT4 and I was consistently 3-4s faster than I was in my M2C. That said I also gave another M2C a point by or two out there. I love my GT4 but also loved hauling 4 extra wheels in my M2C and being comfortable for the 4-5hr drive. I read many of these comparison threads. Rather than comparing, appreciate what each brings to the table. Can't go wrong with either.
This is the crux of it all. Very well said.

When I am at the track and it starts to rain, do all the GT3’s and GT4’s envy the fact that I put my PS4S “rain tire” on and go have fun on the track? Of course they do.

When it’s dry, do I envy that extra special driving interaction the GT3/4 has compared to my M? Of course I do.

Having inbuilt rain tires is great when it rains but when it doesn’t I do have to muck around with changing wheels. Do I envy the “arrive and drive” ease of a GT4? Of course I do.

When I take my family out on weekends and both my son and I terrify my wife on the twisty bits, am I having the cake and eating it too? Of course I do.

Incidentally due to very practical considerations I could own a GT3 but not a GT4, since to make it up the driveway the car needs to have sufficient clearance or a front end lift. Sooo many things go into making a buying decision...
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      09-14-2020, 09:24 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
This is the crux of it all. Very well said.

When I am at the track and it starts to rain, do all the GT3’s and GT4’s envy the fact that I put my PS4S “rain tire” on and go have fun on the track? Of course they do.

When it’s dry, do I envy that extra special driving interaction the GT3/4 has compared to my M? Of course I do.

Having inbuilt rain tires is great when it rains but when it doesn’t I do have to muck around with changing wheels. Do I envy the “arrive and drive” ease of a GT4? Of course I do.

When I take my family out on weekends and both my son and I terrify my wife on the twisty bits, am I having the cake and eating it too? Of course I do.

Incidentally due to very practical considerations I could own a GT3 but not a GT4, since to make it up the driveway the car needs to have sufficient clearance or a front end lift. Sooo many things go into making a buying decision...
Great comment. And I think the fact is, we are all driving (M's, GT's, BMW's, Porsche, etc) pretty damn fantastic sporting cars no matter what and getting wound up about the variation between them is missing the bounty already in hand.
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      10-12-2020, 09:32 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robopp View Post
Quote from the first few sentences of the article - "First thing's first—yes, you should take this potential update with a grain of salt, because like any anonymously sourced report it could turn out to be bogus." It's not going to get a S58. Zero chance.

EDIT: READ THE SECOND SENTENCE AND CLICK INTO THE LINK FROM BESTCARWEB.


Sources from bestcarweb...which has been fairly reliable for leaking JDM car info, cite Tetsuya Tada, chief engineer of the Toyota Supra.

I'm gonna go with my instinct that an automotive journalist in japan citing Tada is a more reliable source than you...we can be civil and call it greater than zero chance...cheers mate
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      10-12-2020, 09:42 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
The DCT is the most unbelievable part, the M3/M4 don't get a S58/DCT combo but they're going to have it for a limited run Supra? And they're going to get the full Competition tuned engine in RWD when every other vehicle has it paired with AWD and the ZF 8HP?
From the article I posted above:

"The transmission to be combined is a 7-speed M-DCT, and it was said that the BMW side was initially reluctant to supply this power train to Toyota, but it was realized by the efforts of CE Tetsuya Tada."

edit: Its also going to cost well over 100k USD....

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      10-13-2020, 12:53 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
From the article I posted above:

"The transmission to be combined is a 7-speed M-DCT, and it was said that the BMW side was initially reluctant to supply this power train to Toyota, but it was realized by the efforts of CE Tetsuya Tada."

edit: Its also going to cost well over 100k USD....
The link you posted above is from June and about the new Fairlady Z.
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      10-13-2020, 01:37 PM   #57
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The amount of opinions you see on the gearing you would think Porsche sold more GT4's than Camrys in 2016. In reality the gearing isn't really a problem, particularly on track. Is it optimal? No. But when you actually drive a GT4 and compare it with an M2C you realize they are completely different cars.

The GT4 feels alive, connected, with perfectly weighted inputs. Its an experience to drive. Compare that with the M2C which is effective, fun, but sterile. And I say that as someone who owned an M2C and sold it after 9 months disappointed. The e9x M3 is far more comparable to the GT4 as the engine invokes emotion, I'd take it over an M2C 10 times out of 10. I think the e9x M3 is the benchmark M car, and probably the best M3 ever made. The M2C suffers from the same numbness that afflicts all modern BMW's, its the best car BMW makes but it wouldn't even feature on a greatest hits album. The M2 CS doesn't improve any of the cars flaws, which is a shame as if there were any enthusiasts left at BMW they could of done something really special with it as theres a great chassis underneath.
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      10-13-2020, 03:23 PM   #58
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The amount of opinions you see on the gearing you would think Porsche sold more GT4's than Camrys in 2016. In reality the gearing isn't really a problem, particularly on track. Is it optimal? No. But when you actually drive a GT4 and compare it with an M2C you realize they are completely different cars.

The GT4 feels alive, connected, with perfectly weighted inputs. Its an experience to drive. Compare that with the M2C which is effective, fun, but sterile. And I say that as someone who owned an M2C and sold it after 9 months disappointed. The e9x M3 is far more comparable to the GT4 as the engine invokes emotion, I'd take it over an M2C 10 times out of 10. I think the e9x M3 is the benchmark M car, and probably the best M3 ever made. The M2C suffers from the same numbness that afflicts all modern BMW's, its the best car BMW makes but it wouldn't even feature on a greatest hits album. The M2 CS doesn't improve any of the cars flaws, which is a shame as if there were any enthusiasts left at BMW they could of done something really special with it as theres a great chassis underneath.
Never ever heard of someone disappointed by the M2 , whatever variant . You may have bigger expectations from Chris Harris , he wouldnt own one if it was disappointed too ! And as far i know , the Competition but the F87 in general , was titled with the phrase , bmw back in form. But especially E92 ? Come on , that was one of the worst M3s after the E36, in terms of handling and development and reliability in general. It was from the era of cheaper materials , paint problems , interior materials were cheap , it was the first grown up M3 , but nothing felt like a E30 , E36 , E46 .. that compact fun M car , yeah it did have the last NA engine , but again , wasnt the best engine in terms of reliability , guess why the 1M was so succesful.. as for the GT4 vs M2s, its just personal preference , one thing for sure , you cant say the M2 is a disappointment. Not at all.
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      10-13-2020, 03:54 PM   #59
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Never ever heard of someone disappointed by the M2 , whatever variant . You may have bigger expectations from Chris Harris , he wouldnt own one if it was disappointed too ! And as far i know , the Competition but the F87 in general , was titled with the phrase , bmw back in form. But especially E92 ? Come on , that was one of the worst M3s after the E36, in terms of handling and development and reliability in general. It was from the era of cheaper materials , paint problems , interior materials were cheap , it was the first grown up M3 , but nothing felt like a E30 , E36 , E46 .. that compact fun M car , yeah it did have the last NA engine , but again , wasnt the best engine in terms of reliability , guess why the 1M was so succesful.. as for the GT4 vs M2s, its just personal preference , one thing for sure , you cant say the M2 is a disappointment. Not at all.
It was a disappointment, I owned once hence I can say that. I did 6K street miles and 3 track days which is plenty to form an opinion. It left me cold, I sold it after 9 months and took a $15K bath in the process. The E9x M3 has a much higher quality interior, significantly better sound system (the M2 HK system is offensively bad), and because they didn't remove all the sound deadening ala the M2 it doesn't sound like a tin can on a cruise. Engine wise there is literally no contest, the S55 is a dull turbo motor whereas the S65 is one of the finest V8's ever made. Steering feel, sound.. the M2C is not even on the same level. My E90 M3 was very reliable. You can also buy a good E9x M3, look after it and not lose a single $ in depreciation. The only area the M2C improves is the differential (the M diff is excellent on track), chassis stiffness, technology, and the fact you can get a warranty. You can also tune it if you like stoplight racing. But ultimately the juice isn't worth the squeeze because the 'intangibles' that make a car an emotional experience to drive just aren't there in the M2C, whatever mods you throw at them. That's just my opinion though, if others feel differently good on them.

As for Chris Harris I very much respect his opinion, he bought the M2C because he was putting too many miles on the 1M. Bear in mind he also has many other cars to drive. I owned the M2C and formed my own opinion, what other reviewers who had the car for 10 minutes have to say doesn't really interest me. Hence why I read forums, because you can get actual information on owning cars not a spec readout followed by some drifts around an airfield.
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      10-13-2020, 05:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
It was a disappointment, I owned once hence I can say that. I did 6K street miles and 3 track days which is plenty to form an opinion. It left me cold, I sold it after 9 months and took a $15K bath in the process. The E9x M3 has a much higher quality interior, significantly better sound system (the M2 HK system is offensively bad), and because they didn't remove all the sound deadening ala the M2 it doesn't sound like a tin can on a cruise. Engine wise there is literally no contest, the S55 is a dull turbo motor whereas the S65 is one of the finest V8's ever made. Steering feel, sound.. the M2C is not even on the same level. My E90 M3 was very reliable. You can also buy a good E9x M3, look after it and not lose a single $ in depreciation. The only area the M2C improves is the differential (the M diff is excellent on track), chassis stiffness, technology, and the fact you can get a warranty. You can also tune it if you like stoplight racing. But ultimately the juice isn't worth the squeeze because the 'intangibles' that make a car an emotional experience to drive just aren't there in the M2C, whatever mods you throw at them. That's just my opinion though, if others feel differently good on them.

As for Chris Harris I very much respect his opinion, he bought the M2C because he was putting too many miles on the 1M. Bear in mind he also has many other cars to drive. I owned the M2C and formed my own opinion, what other reviewers who had the car for 10 minutes have to say doesn't really interest me. Hence why I read forums, because you can get actual information on owning cars not a spec readout followed by some drifts around an airfield.

I did own m3 e92 and it was also:
- significantly better interrior materials
- first reliable m3
- glorious V8
- better stereo sound
- exhaust sound (probably the best of M3s ever as per my taste)

But what is definitely better in M2C is:
- handling and chassis
- shorter wheelbase which delivers more fun while driving it


I let go M5 f90 after 12 months of ownership as it turned out to be a boring car. The M2C is pretty fun and I am enjoying it in its form.
I also own 991.2 GT3 and it is a totally different car but I jump in M2C from time to time and find it also a great car to drive.


P.S. I don’t think M2cs is making any sense given its price range. For this price Cayman GTS 4.0 is by far a better choice hands down.
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      10-13-2020, 07:42 PM   #61
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I did own m3 e92 and it was also:
- significantly better interrior materials


P.S. I don’t think M2cs is making any sense given its price range. For this price Cayman GTS 4.0 is by far a better choice hands down.
Did the M3 have a big step up over the other E90s? Had a family E90, and I would not share that view in comparison to the F30 and F87 interiors.

The GTS4.0 thing is a very dead horse around here... but it's arguably not a better daily driver, and without question not a better set of back seats.
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      10-13-2020, 08:16 PM   #62
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If Toyota is smart they would release the Supra B58 with 6MT and they will sell like hot cakes

If they are even smarter they would persuade BMW to hand over the 470hp S58 and couple with a 6MT. Enthusiasts will be all over it like bees on honey. Dare I say even GT3 owners would want one to track or for some back roads fun
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      10-14-2020, 04:37 AM   #63
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Did the M3 have a big step up over the other E90s? Had a family E90, and I would not share that view in comparison to the F30 and F87 interiors.

It should have been as M3 e92 had pretty nice Nappa leather and I had a car with extended leather option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
The GTS4.0 thing is a very dead horse around here... but it's arguably not a better daily driver, and without question not a better set of back seats.

M2C price is fair.
M2CS for that price tag is not. It has very small improvements over M2C but the price delta is quite noticeable.


GTS 4.0 is a car of a higher level than M2CS without a question. Handling, built quality, interrior materials, midengine car, etc.

I am quite skeptical anyone would say that M5 is of the same level with 911 GT3 as an example. And practicality of all wheel drive and all other features wont help M5 in this regard.
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      10-14-2020, 06:03 AM   #64
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Enthusiasts will be all over it like bees on honey. Dare I say even GT3 owners would want one to track or for some back roads fun
Unless you like to drive with the window down.
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      10-14-2020, 06:07 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by kart driver View Post
M2C price is fair.
M2CS for that price tag is not. It has very small improvements over M2C but the price delta is quite noticeable.


GTS 4.0 is a car of a higher level than M2CS without a question. Handling, built quality, interrior materials, midengine car, etc.
As they say in the classics, opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one.
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      10-14-2020, 08:22 AM   #66
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It should have been as M3 e92 had pretty nice Nappa leather and I had a car with extended leather option.
I guess this is just one of those different perspective things. To me the leather is pretty trivial in the quality. All the door panels, pulls, switchgear, instrument cluster design, sound insulation, lighting, etc is effectively the same. So saying the interiors are appreciably different because of seat covering and a few extra leather bits doesn't register with me. I get where you are coming from though at least, so thanks for explaining it as now I can see where that not being available on the M2 would matter for some people.
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