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      12-03-2019, 10:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
LOL - the disclaimer is much appreciated.

I think very few socialists actually believe socialism is a viable option, or have even thought about whether or not it could actually work. They mainly use it as an ideological cloak, under which to hide their deep resentments of success and autonomy.
Agreed, the folks pushing for socialism might think they are a socialist but are living under a capitalist democratic systems and think they will be better off getting everything for free......I don't think they know that the holodeck hasn't actually been invented yet.
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      12-03-2019, 10:42 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Agreed, the folks pushing for socialism might think they are a socialist but are living under a capitalist democratic systems and think they will be better off getting everything for free......I don't think they know that the holodeck hasn't actually been invented yet.
The thing that chaps my ass the most, is the public universities' blatant Postmodern/leftist ideological bent. They're taking the spoils of capitalism - billions of our tax dollars - and using them to teach young people to hate capitalism. What a great scam and what a dreadful, cynical, hateful thing to do. Makes me think that all the socialist and Postmodernist ideologies were created post hoc so they could sleep at night.
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      12-03-2019, 11:02 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
The thing that chaps my ass the most, is the public universities' blatant Postmodern/leftist ideological bent. They're taking the spoils of capitalism - billions of our tax dollars - and using them to teach young people to hate capitalism. What a great scam and what a dreadful, cynical, hateful thing to do. Makes me think that all the socialist and Postmodernist ideologies were created post hoc so they could sleep at night.
Gee a Public entity preaching the further expansion and power of the public domanian and the destriction of the private one. Who would have thought.
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      12-03-2019, 11:08 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Gee a Public entity preaching the further expansion and power of the public domanian and the destriction of the private one. Who would have thought.
Like every entity, it seeks to ensure its own survival. I say starve them back to a healthy weight...or just starve them, period.
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      12-03-2019, 11:09 AM   #27
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Communism is a BEAUTIFUL idea!




Unfortunately, the humans that would have to carry it out are UGLY
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      12-03-2019, 11:47 AM   #28
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My argument for when my kids talk about the benefits of socialism brought about by a US exchange teacher whose leftist socialist comments had a mass of complaints from parents when they stormed the school.

Take their iPhone off of them and throw it in the bin. That's socialism.
You won't be able to afford an iPhone and eat at the same time.

Then there was the pro-Palestine, hate Israel, kill Jews demonstration. When someone took two phones off a pair of ignorant protestors and smashed them off the ground. Before telling them if you are for boycotting Israel you do know that your phones major components are developed in Israel.
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      12-03-2019, 12:19 PM   #29
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      12-03-2019, 12:49 PM   #30
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Socialism will never be a reality in the US.

Socialized/single-payer healthcare, maybe. That's hardly the same thing.
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      12-03-2019, 12:56 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Socialism will never be a reality in the US.

Socialized/single-payer healthcare, maybe. That's hardly the same thing.
I hope you're right, the steady march to the left in western democracies is alarming. I'm hoping the pendulum swings the other way soon as a lot of folks are growing sick of all of this progressive nonsense.
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      12-03-2019, 01:11 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Socialism will never be a reality in the US.

Socialized/single-payer healthcare, maybe. That's hardly the same thing.
If american want even worse medical system, remember our health care got far more expensive as we permitted public insurance companies to get involve and the government a public entity further regulated it made it even more expensive. So our solution is to make it more centralize and more in the public domain?
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      12-03-2019, 01:55 PM   #33
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      12-03-2019, 02:03 PM   #34
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I miss the old days of Thatcher and Reagan. The 1980's is like Paul Newman vs. the Tom Cruise millennial. I can't imagine what's the next wave gonna be ... Kardashian for President
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      12-03-2019, 02:10 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
If american want even worse medical system, remember our health care got far more expensive as we permitted public insurance companies to get involve and the government a public entity further regulated it made it even more expensive. So our solution is to make it more centralize and more in the public domain?

Worse?


The Legatum Institute's Prosperity Index ranked at 149 countries in several different categories, including healthcare. This report looks at factors including health infrastructure, basic mental and physical health, and the availability of preventative care. Based on the latest report, the following countries were found to have the best healthcare:

Canada
Qatar
France
Norway
New Zealand
Germany
Hong Kong
The Netherlands
Switzerland
Singapore
Luxembourg
Japan
Sweden


http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...-in-the-world/

There is no reason for our nation to NOT at least be on that list. We can do much better. I doubt allowing for-profit healthcare companies even wider latitude is the answer.
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      12-03-2019, 02:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Worse?


The Legatum Institute's Prosperity Index ranked at 149 countries in several different categories, including healthcare. This report looks at factors including health infrastructure, basic mental and physical health, and the availability of preventative care. Based on the latest report, the following countries were found to have the best healthcare:

Canada
Qatar
France
Norway
New Zealand
Germany
Hong Kong
The Netherlands
Switzerland
Singapore
Luxembourg
Japan
Sweden


http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...-in-the-world/

There is no reason for our nation to NOT at least be on that list. We can do much better. I doubt allowing for-profit healthcare companies even wider latitude is the answer.

Yeah, you guys charge just stupid amounts of money for anything needing a doctor. It's insane. I'd hate to get sick down there without any insurance. Of course, you're all quite litigious too, so maybe the doctors need to charge that amount just to make a reasonable net salary after all that. Not sure.

But take away some of the litigious system, pare back the amount doctors are paid for each procedure, and maybe it would be better. But you definitely don't need to give them greater latitude as you noted.

Canada's system is broken though - I can't imagine it will last more than 25 years. Right now, speaking from someone who knows a lot of doctors, they're all just basically patching the holes right now to make it work. I bet we'll see something of a two-tiered system in the future.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      12-03-2019, 02:31 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Worse?


The Legatum Institute's Prosperity Index ranked at 149 countries in several different categories, including healthcare. This report looks at factors including health infrastructure, basic mental and physical health, and the availability of preventative care. Based on the latest report, the following countries were found to have the best healthcare:

Canada
Qatar
France
Norway
New Zealand
Germany
Hong Kong
The Netherlands
Switzerland
Singapore
Luxembourg
Japan
Sweden


http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...-in-the-world/

There is no reason for our nation to NOT at least be on that list. We can do much better. I doubt allowing for-profit healthcare companies even wider latitude is the answer.
I don't disagree that everyone should have access to healthcare, I think that western democracies can at least provide that as a basic human need. I won't speak for the other countries on your list but there are lots of other reports that shows that our cost in Canada for healthcare is just about the worst on the planet regarding dollars spent vs wait times, availability and quality of care. Our healthcare system is bloated with non-healthcare workers (bureaucrats) making up more than the actual deliverers of medicine.
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      12-03-2019, 03:11 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
I don't disagree that everyone should have access to healthcare, I think that western democracies can at least provide that as a basic human need. I won't speak for the other countries on your list but there are lots of other reports that shows that our cost in Canada for healthcare is just about the worst on the planet regarding dollars spent vs wait times, availability and quality of care. Our healthcare system is bloated with non-healthcare workers (bureaucrats) making up more than the actual deliverers of medicine.
Could not agree more on the bolded. It has gotten out of hand. The amount of paperwork that my wife does is far greater than the actual time spent operating / patient procedures. It's insane and unsustainable. And the hospital keeps coming up with more forms and policies.

Its a big part of why she's decided to cut back her practice to only 50% starting in 2020, she can't keep up with the paperwork and still be a mom.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      12-03-2019, 03:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
My argument for when my kids talk about the benefits of socialism brought about by a US exchange teacher whose leftist socialist comments had a mass of complaints from parents when they stormed the school.

Take their iPhone off of them and throw it in the bin. That's socialism.
You won't be able to afford an iPhone and eat at the same time.

Then there was the pro-Palestine, hate Israel, kill Jews demonstration. When someone took two phones off a pair of ignorant protestors and smashed them off the ground. Before telling them if you are for boycotting Israel you do know that your phones major components are developed in Israel.


This post makes about as much sense as your bolded tag line about the 850.
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      12-03-2019, 03:58 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
Could not agree more on the bolded. It has gotten out of hand. The amount of paperwork that my wife does is far greater than the actual time spent operating / patient procedures. It's insane and unsustainable. And the hospital keeps coming up with more forms and policies.

Its a big part of why she's decided to cut back her practice to only 50% starting in 2020, she can't keep up with the paperwork and still be a mom.
My wife was the IT director with a number of fortune 500 companies before she came to government. The bloat is insane and if she wasn't close to retiring she'd go back to the private sector. Ministry of Health is the largest and most expensive of all of the ministries. It has become a caricature of socialism.
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      12-03-2019, 04:03 PM   #41
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I am just glad joekerr got a sure source of income. :-)
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      12-03-2019, 04:20 PM   #42
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I am just glad joekerr got a sure source of income. :-)
You and me both. I mean, can you imagine if I didn't? If the way I run my mouth around here is anything like I am in real life, I'd probably be on the streets eh?
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      12-03-2019, 04:44 PM   #43
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Just joking of course :-) Actually I am bit jealous.
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      12-03-2019, 05:29 PM   #44
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Labels, especially when misused on all sides, just create more misunderstanding and division.

The following article does a reasonable job defining socialism vs. what some politicians are using to self describe themselves as "democratic socialists".

https://www.businessinsider.com/diff...cialist-2018-6

I don't know any pure socialists or supporters of pure socialism with centralized control over all industries. But I know a lot of left leaning folks who think unbridled or unregulated capitalism can sometimes lead to a threat to our democracy. Beyond a certain point, inequality tends to lead to cycles of increasing greed and political corruption... with the health care industry in the USA becoming a case in point. I agree with previous posts in this thread. It's not the fault of the vast majority of patients, nor physicians, but the layers of health insurance between the two.

Many of the symptoms the left leaning rail against could be solved by reintroducing enough regulation to increase market competition. Medicare for All may not be required to get health care costs and outcomes in line with the rest of the industrialized world's numbers. But we have to have sufficient government regulation at all levels to stop the current level of merger fever, and we need incentives at this point to, for example, get doctor's groups to start forming independent payment processes that get patient and physician closer, without a dozen layers of health insurance professionals between the two. There have been a few experiments in rural areas that look promising, but frequently politicians, bought out by industry, end up trying to shut down such experiments with lawsuits. Just like they did when a few small municipalities tried to offer cheap broadband to residents. In comes the ISP industry suing over unfair competition, and getting state or federal politicians to defend their obscene profit margins.

I admire AOC, Bernie, and similar politicians, but would never label any as true "socialists" or even close to any moderate "democratic socialists" like Salvador Allende back in the early 70s. Today's left in the USA is more like a throwback to FDR, with plans for government regulation and incentives to bring up the poor and lower middle class... admittedly at the expense of the top 1-5%. Most economists I've read say that's a better way to grow an economy than relying solely on trickle down and the austerity doctrines of a Thatcher or Reagan administration.
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