07-06-2019, 08:56 AM | #1 |
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Why does "M-DCT" show as "manual" in build ?
Looking at 2019/2020 M2 builds. Looking at options and test driving an M2 with DCT it functions as an automatic. Why do the builds and dealers post these cars as manuals?
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07-06-2019, 08:58 AM | #2 |
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Because it is both much like what’s every modern race car uses now. A Dual Clutch Transmission is certainly not a “Automatic” even though it can change gears without a clutch being depressed. It’s much less confusing than MB and Porsche calling a sedan with a sloped roof a “coupe”.
Last edited by MystroX5; 07-06-2019 at 09:05 AM.. |
07-06-2019, 09:25 AM | #3 | |
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Current Car: 2018 F80 M3CS, SMB, DCT, ZEC, MPE Recently Departed: 2020 F87 M2C, LBB, ZEC, 6MT (Euro Delivery Aug. 29, 2019, totaled by an idiot in a Camry who then ran from the scene) Wife's Prior Car: 2018 F80 M3, Yas Marina Blue, DCT, Black 19s, Carbon Structure Anthracite Cloth/Leather Combination, Driving Assistance Package (Euro Delivery Oct. 9, 2017) |
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07-06-2019, 10:20 AM | #4 |
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Yeah, it was a faux pas I think all the manufacturers waited to see if it would be accepted or not before calling all their four-door slope backs a “coupe”. It seems to be generally accepted.
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07-06-2019, 10:31 AM | #5 |
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It's really an automated manual but to me still different from a true manual in terms of how I would describe the car.
Most dealers can't properly tag it with a name in their inventory system, so I never trust an inventory listing unless it has photos and I can see the shifter. I have seen quite a few M2 and M4 cars listed as "manual" that are really DCT. The other factor is that for the average buyer, especially one who can't drive a stick shift, it gets classified as an automatic in their minds. And I bet only a small subset of people who buy DCT do it because they understand and want the advantages of DCT and are willing to put up with some of the quirks of DCT (you'd have to be a true car guy / car enthusiast to know). At least based on my time on forums, I'd bet 90% of DCT buyers get it because they consider it to be an automatic and/or they can't drive a stick shift with foot clutch. To me that is a bit of disrespect to a good DCT but who am I to judge. |
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07-06-2019, 10:34 AM | #6 |
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Manufacturers and their marketing have redefined a coupe as not only having a sloping roof, but also hiding the B pillar unlike a sedan. The amount of doors don't matter anymore (to them). At least that's my understanding.
Regarding the DCT and why it's called a MT, no idea. Sounds like lazy referencing. It's not a traditional MT nor is it a AT, but it's somewhere in the middle and we already have a name for it, DCT. |
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07-06-2019, 10:48 AM | #7 |
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My reasoning of getting a DCT is owning a manual in some form for 30 years with Porsche 911’s. I have a been there done that for so long that I want to embrace a modern race car fast DCT. I really appreciate the technical aspect of the DCT and the savage speed it shifts in the modern “M” cars. I had a early DCT with Audi years ago but it was no where near as good as todays BMM DCT. I will say from decades of PCA club racing/track events that the guys with the DCT in 911’s were beating equally equipped 911’s manuals in the turns on tracks like Watkins Glen. This started happening about 5 years ago. There is no wrong answers as the pure joy of manually snicking the gears can be its own reward. I mastered the manual transmission with a 930 on and off the track. That qualifies me as having a “Masters Degree” in heal toe driving one of the most difficult and dangerous cars of my generation. I have nothing more to prove with the manual gear box and if some snotty kid in a GTI comments that I don’t know how to drive stick cause I have a DCT, I may have to smack him.
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07-06-2019, 02:08 PM | #8 |
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Definition of automatic:
"a device or process working by itself with little or no direct human control" A DCT is an auto! It's not an epicyclic auto, but it is a gearbox that is primarily designed to change gears on its own "automatically". Thus an auto. Put it in D and off you go You can't dress it up as something it isn't. Yes it gives you a fake "manual" mode where you can request the computer to shift at your command, and it will consider your request and shift if the parameters allow it. It's an auto. Last edited by doughboy; 07-06-2019 at 02:14 PM.. |
07-06-2019, 02:16 PM | #9 | |
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I think maybe sometimes it's just lost in translation from German to English. I think whatever they label the DCT might have manual in the word, and confuses people, something like automated manual. |
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07-06-2019, 02:21 PM | #10 | |
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07-06-2019, 03:45 PM | #11 |
this is the way
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07-06-2019, 04:30 PM | #12 |
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No need for a war, I'm being complimentary!
DCT is a great automatic, very accomplished and efficient, for an auto. If I wanted an auto I'd be very happy with it. The 7 speed DSG auto in my 3.2 ton diesel work van is a very splendid thing indeed, for an auto... Last edited by doughboy; 07-06-2019 at 04:44 PM.. |
07-06-2019, 05:51 PM | #14 | |
Luxury at the redline :)
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So you can't blame the people for being confused. DCT is all good but it's the opposite option of a manual on BMW's catalog, that should pretty much speak for itself and end this dispute. |
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07-06-2019, 08:00 PM | #15 | |
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The head instructor of the local BMWCCA chapter also bought an M2 with DCT. He claims it is a much better track transmission. So don’t think that we can’t drive a stick or just considered it an automatic. |
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07-06-2019, 09:00 PM | #17 | |
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And I bet only a small subset of people who buy DCT do it because they understand and want the advantages of DCT and are willing to put up with some of the quirks of DCT (you'd have to be a true car guy / car enthusiast to know). I feel like only informed car enthusiasts know about the benefits/advantages of DCT. Those folks get it for the right reason. |
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07-06-2019, 09:01 PM | #18 |
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The 6MT 6th gear is really short though. Might get on your nerves if you do a lot of high speed highway driving. If the 6MT and DCT cost the same in the US I'd have to think about it.
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07-07-2019, 01:34 AM | #19 | |||
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For your info: Quote:
See also here from 01:55 onwards:
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07-07-2019, 03:07 AM | #20 |
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Lol got to love those idiot guide videos. Surprised they didn't start with "this is a car, it has 4 wheels and an engine".
If a road car has no clutch pedal and changes gear on its own it's an auto. The name "Auto" is wrongly associated by some with older epicyclic autos but things have moved on, other tech has entered the auto world. They are all autos. There are different types of autos for sure and different technologies. But as a retail / road product they are autos. As a buyer I just want to know will this car have 2 pedals & change gear for me or do i have to do it with a stick and 3 pedals? Not about which is best, just the category name to allow customers to know what they are buying. Calling them both manual is daft and wrong. That was the start of this thread, daft BMW sales people wrongly entering some used cars with DCT as manuals on the system. Wrong. They've been doing it for years since SMG. Last edited by doughboy; 07-07-2019 at 03:29 AM.. |
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07-07-2019, 09:21 AM | #21 |
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Always frustrates me searching bmwusa.com's CPO inventory search. In the whole country, it claims there are 28 "manual" (6MT + DCT) and 3 "other". I guess kudos to the dealers who list DCT as other.
(And I realize the inventory search relies on dealer input values). |
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07-07-2019, 10:31 AM | #22 |
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Don’t let them twist it fellas, it ain’t the coupling or gearing that makes it automatic or manual, it’s the control.
Manual Transmission Control A traditional manual transmission includes a clutch pedal that enables the driver to manually decouple the engine from the transmission requiring the driver to synchronize engine and transmission speed before reengaging the coupling. A gear lever enables the driver to manually select any gear ratio that the driver prefers at any time without any automated intervention or mechanical restriction beyond inherent synchronization threshholds. An enhanced manual transmission uses a Transmission Control Unit that may engage mechanical restrictions that prevent the driver from selecting a gear ratio that may result in damage. The TCU may also manage engine speed to ensure that that the engine and transmission are synchronized when the driver reengages the coupling. Automatic/DCT Transmission Control In automatic mode, A Transmission Control Unit fully manages the gearing ratio, synchronization and coupling between the engine and the transmission without driver participation. In Manual mode, the TCU may permit the driver to manually select either the previous or next gear ratio in the sequence with the use of input switches that notify the TCU that the driver wishes to engage an adjacent gear. The TCU preempts the drivers gear selection request and processes the request against a list of parameter filters that may either result in approval or denial of the request. If the request is approved by the TCU, the TCU automatically decouples the engine from the transmission, triggers mechanical selection of the next gear, ensures synchronization and reengages the coupling without further driver participation. Last edited by silverds; 07-07-2019 at 10:51 AM.. |
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