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      07-06-2019, 08:56 AM   #1
silvercas
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Why does "M-DCT" show as "manual" in build ?

Looking at 2019/2020 M2 builds. Looking at options and test driving an M2 with DCT it functions as an automatic. Why do the builds and dealers post these cars as manuals?
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      07-06-2019, 08:58 AM   #2
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Because it is both much like what’s every modern race car uses now. A Dual Clutch Transmission is certainly not a “Automatic” even though it can change gears without a clutch being depressed. It’s much less confusing than MB and Porsche calling a sedan with a sloped roof a “coupe”.

Last edited by MystroX5; 07-06-2019 at 09:05 AM..
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      07-06-2019, 09:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MystroX5 View Post
Because it is both much like what's every modern race car uses now. A Dual Clutch Transmission is certainly not a "Automatic" even though it can change gears without a clutch being depressed. It's much less confusing than MB and Porsche calling a sedan with a sloped roof a "coupe".
BMW calls some of its 4 series with a sloped roof coupes. See the 4, 6, and now 8 series gran coupe. But yes agreed.
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      07-06-2019, 10:20 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
BMW calls some of its 4 series with a sloped roof coupes. See the 4, 6, and now 8 series gran coupe. But yes agreed.
Yeah, it was a faux pas I think all the manufacturers waited to see if it would be accepted or not before calling all their four-door slope backs a “coupe”. It seems to be generally accepted.
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      07-06-2019, 10:31 AM   #5
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It's really an automated manual but to me still different from a true manual in terms of how I would describe the car.

Most dealers can't properly tag it with a name in their inventory system, so I never trust an inventory listing unless it has photos and I can see the shifter. I have seen quite a few M2 and M4 cars listed as "manual" that are really DCT.

The other factor is that for the average buyer, especially one who can't drive a stick shift, it gets classified as an automatic in their minds. And I bet only a small subset of people who buy DCT do it because they understand and want the advantages of DCT and are willing to put up with some of the quirks of DCT (you'd have to be a true car guy / car enthusiast to know).

At least based on my time on forums, I'd bet 90% of DCT buyers get it because they consider it to be an automatic and/or they can't drive a stick shift with foot clutch. To me that is a bit of disrespect to a good DCT but who am I to judge.
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      07-06-2019, 10:34 AM   #6
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Manufacturers and their marketing have redefined a coupe as not only having a sloping roof, but also hiding the B pillar unlike a sedan. The amount of doors don't matter anymore (to them). At least that's my understanding.

Regarding the DCT and why it's called a MT, no idea. Sounds like lazy referencing. It's not a traditional MT nor is it a AT, but it's somewhere in the middle and we already have a name for it, DCT.
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      07-06-2019, 10:48 AM   #7
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My reasoning of getting a DCT is owning a manual in some form for 30 years with Porsche 911’s. I have a been there done that for so long that I want to embrace a modern race car fast DCT. I really appreciate the technical aspect of the DCT and the savage speed it shifts in the modern “M” cars. I had a early DCT with Audi years ago but it was no where near as good as todays BMM DCT. I will say from decades of PCA club racing/track events that the guys with the DCT in 911’s were beating equally equipped 911’s manuals in the turns on tracks like Watkins Glen. This started happening about 5 years ago. There is no wrong answers as the pure joy of manually snicking the gears can be its own reward. I mastered the manual transmission with a 930 on and off the track. That qualifies me as having a “Masters Degree” in heal toe driving one of the most difficult and dangerous cars of my generation. I have nothing more to prove with the manual gear box and if some snotty kid in a GTI comments that I don’t know how to drive stick cause I have a DCT, I may have to smack him.
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      07-06-2019, 02:08 PM   #8
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Definition of automatic:

"a device or process working by itself with little or no direct human control"

A DCT is an auto!

It's not an epicyclic auto, but it is a gearbox that is primarily designed to change gears on its own "automatically". Thus an auto.

Put it in D and off you go You can't dress it up as something it isn't.

Yes it gives you a fake "manual" mode where you can request the computer to shift at your command, and it will consider your request and shift if the parameters allow it.

It's an auto.

Last edited by doughboy; 07-06-2019 at 02:14 PM..
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      07-06-2019, 02:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercas View Post
Looking at 2019/2020 M2 builds. Looking at options and test driving an M2 with DCT it functions as an automatic. Why do the builds and dealers post these cars as manuals?
My dealer that I bought from told me that they listed my dct car as a manual because they felt the advertisement for a manual gets more interest. Not sure I buy that.

I think maybe sometimes it's just lost in translation from German to English. I think whatever they label the DCT might have manual in the word, and confuses people, something like automated manual.
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      07-06-2019, 02:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Definition of automatic:

"a device or process working by itself with little or no direct human control"

A DCT is an auto!

It's not an epicyclic auto, but it is a gearbox that is primarily designed to change gears on its own "automatically". Thus an auto.

Put it in D and off you go You can't dress it up as something it isn't.

Yes it gives you a fake "manual" mode where you can request the computer to shift at your command, and it will consider your request and shift if the parameters allow it.

It's an auto.
Stop being so logical!

You're going to start a war here
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      07-06-2019, 03:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
Stop being so logical!

You're going to start a war here
Automatic war by manual posting.
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      07-06-2019, 04:30 PM   #12
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No need for a war, I'm being complimentary!

DCT is a great automatic, very accomplished and efficient, for an auto.

If I wanted an auto I'd be very happy with it.

The 7 speed DSG auto in my 3.2 ton diesel work van is a very splendid thing indeed, for an auto...

Last edited by doughboy; 07-06-2019 at 04:44 PM..
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      07-06-2019, 05:10 PM   #13
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Tell those Indy Cart drivers they are driving automatics.
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      07-06-2019, 05:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
No need for a war, I'm being complimentary!

DCT is a great automatic, very accomplished and efficient, for an auto.

If I wanted an auto I'd be very happy with it.

The 7 speed DSG auto in my 3.2 ton diesel work van is a very splendid thing indeed, for an auto...
My dealer told me the the DCT in the 135i "Is really a manual but it also shifts for itself."

So you can't blame the people for being confused.

DCT is all good but it's the opposite option of a manual on BMW's catalog, that should pretty much speak for itself and end this dispute.
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      07-06-2019, 08:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
It's really an automated manual but to me still different from a true manual in terms of how I would describe the car.

Most dealers can't properly tag it with a name in their inventory system, so I never trust an inventory listing unless it has photos and I can see the shifter. I have seen quite a few M2 and M4 cars listed as "manual" that are really DCT.

The other factor is that for the average buyer, especially one who can't drive a stick shift, it gets classified as an automatic in their minds. And I bet only a small subset of people who buy DCT do it because they understand and want the advantages of DCT and are willing to put up with some of the quirks of DCT (you'd have to be a true car guy / car enthusiast to know).

At least based on my time on forums, I'd bet 90% of DCT buyers get it because they consider it to be an automatic and/or they can't drive a stick shift with foot clutch. To me that is a bit of disrespect to a good DCT but who am I to judge.
Very simplistic view of why people buy DCTs. There are a lot of DCT owners on the forum. I had a 6 speed for over 40 years. But when DCT gets better mileage and has better acceleration than a manual, I bought a DCT. It is also a lot easier to drive in Seattle’s stop and go traffic.

The head instructor of the local BMWCCA chapter also bought an M2 with DCT. He claims it is a much better track transmission.

So don’t think that we can’t drive a stick or just considered it an automatic.
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      07-06-2019, 08:19 PM   #16
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anyone that got the dct for better mileage picked the wrong car.

This car gets ass gas mileage and has the smallest tank in history.

I bet the smart car has a bigger tank
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      07-06-2019, 09:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanG View Post
Very simplistic view of why people buy DCTs. There are a lot of DCT owners on the forum. I had a 6 speed for over 40 years. But when DCT gets better mileage and has better acceleration than a manual, I bought a DCT. It is also a lot easier to drive in Seattle’s stop and go traffic.

The head instructor of the local BMWCCA chapter also bought an M2 with DCT. He claims it is a much better track transmission.

So don’t think that we can’t drive a stick or just considered it an automatic.
I think you missed the key part of my post:

And I bet only a small subset of people who buy DCT do it because they understand and want the advantages of DCT and are willing to put up with some of the quirks of DCT (you'd have to be a true car guy / car enthusiast to know).

I feel like only informed car enthusiasts know about the benefits/advantages of DCT. Those folks get it for the right reason.
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      07-06-2019, 09:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spetsnazos View Post
anyone that got the dct for better mileage picked the wrong car.

This car gets ass gas mileage and has the smallest tank in history.

I bet the smart car has a bigger tank
The 6MT 6th gear is really short though. Might get on your nerves if you do a lot of high speed highway driving. If the 6MT and DCT cost the same in the US I'd have to think about it.
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      07-07-2019, 01:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercas View Post
Looking at 2019/2020 M2 builds. Looking at options and test driving an M2 with DCT it functions as an automatic. Why do the builds and dealers post these cars as manuals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
Regarding the DCT and why it's called a MT, no idea. Sounds like lazy referencing. It's not a traditional MT nor is it a AT, but it's somewhere in the middle and we already have a name for it, DCT.
My guess for a possible explanation:
  • the base F87 M2 got model type codes 1H91, 1H92 and 1H93; the F87 M2 Competition got model type codes 2U71, 2U72 and 2U73; the F87 M2 CS got model type codes ***1, ***2 and ***3 (1 = EUR lefthand drive / 2 = EUR righthand drive / 3 = USA lefthand drive);
  • the first part of VIN lists of existing F87 M2 cars (base, Competition and CS) specifies "Transmission ... MECH" (thus not "Transmission ... AUT");
  • to find out in a VIN list whether an M car features a manual transmission or M-DCT you gotta check whether or not the VIN list mentions option "2MK" (also mentioned as "S2MKA") "M double-clutch transmiss. w/Drivelogic" (absence = manual transmission);
  • possibly some folks advertising F87 M2 cars neither check(ed) for presence/absence of option "2MK" in the VIN list nor physically checked the transmission of the car (stick / steering wheel shift paddles / dashboard gear indications), and likely conclude(d) mistakenly on the basis of the "MECH" transmission mentioned in the VIN list that the M car features a manual transmission.
Early 2017 it was reported over here at Bimmerpost that - apart from the 2U71, 2U72 and 2U73 model type codes for the (in 2018 released) F87 M2 Competition all mentioning "MECH" - the BMW system also featured 2U81, 2U82 and 2U83 model type codes for an F87 M2 Competition all mentioning "AUT". But AFAIK no 2U81/2/3 cars were ever built - those model type codes were merely blanks that were reserved in the BMW system.

For your info:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SickFinga View Post
DCT, SMG and manuals use the same type code. Automatic with torque converter get the "auto" type code. The reason why you see both type codes is just the way BMW structures the type codes. They are just reserved as placeholders. It does not mean there will be an auto version.
See what is said from 01:12 onwards:


See also here from 01:55 onwards:
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      07-07-2019, 03:07 AM   #20
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Lol got to love those idiot guide videos. Surprised they didn't start with "this is a car, it has 4 wheels and an engine".

If a road car has no clutch pedal and changes gear on its own it's an auto. The name "Auto" is wrongly associated by some with older epicyclic autos but things have moved on, other tech has entered the auto world. They are all autos.

There are different types of autos for sure and different technologies. But as a retail / road product they are autos.

As a buyer I just want to know will this car have 2 pedals & change gear for me or do i have to do it with a stick and 3 pedals?

Not about which is best, just the category name to allow customers to know what they are buying. Calling them both manual is daft and wrong.

That was the start of this thread, daft BMW sales people wrongly entering some used cars with DCT as manuals on the system.

Wrong.

They've been doing it for years since SMG.

Last edited by doughboy; 07-07-2019 at 03:29 AM..
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      07-07-2019, 09:21 AM   #21
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Always frustrates me searching bmwusa.com's CPO inventory search. In the whole country, it claims there are 28 "manual" (6MT + DCT) and 3 "other". I guess kudos to the dealers who list DCT as other.

(And I realize the inventory search relies on dealer input values).
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      07-07-2019, 10:31 AM   #22
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Don’t let them twist it fellas, it ain’t the coupling or gearing that makes it automatic or manual, it’s the control.

Manual Transmission Control
A traditional manual transmission includes a clutch pedal that enables the driver to manually decouple the engine from the transmission requiring the driver to synchronize engine and transmission speed before reengaging the coupling. A gear lever enables the driver to manually select any gear ratio that the driver prefers at any time without any automated intervention or mechanical restriction beyond inherent synchronization threshholds.

An enhanced manual transmission uses a Transmission Control Unit that may engage mechanical restrictions that prevent the driver from selecting a gear ratio that may result in damage. The TCU may also manage engine speed to ensure that that the engine and transmission are synchronized when the driver reengages the coupling.


Automatic/DCT Transmission Control
In automatic mode, A Transmission Control Unit fully manages the gearing ratio, synchronization and coupling between the engine and the transmission without driver participation.

In Manual mode, the TCU may permit the driver to manually select either the previous or next gear ratio in the sequence with the use of input switches that notify the TCU that the driver wishes to engage an adjacent gear. The TCU preempts the drivers gear selection request and processes the request against a list of parameter filters that may either result in approval or denial of the request. If the request is approved by the TCU, the TCU automatically decouples the engine from the transmission, triggers mechanical selection of the next gear, ensures synchronization and reengages the coupling without further driver participation.

Last edited by silverds; 07-07-2019 at 10:51 AM..
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