BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
M2 Technical Topics > N55 Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust / Bolt-ons / Tuning > N55 Extreme Engine Cooling

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-17-2018, 03:15 AM   #23
Who?
Colonel
Who?'s Avatar
Australia
449
Rep
2,207
Posts

Drives: F87 LCI
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brisbane

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Should really try ECU tune. Make more power with less boost. Engine will run cooler as well.
Hey mate, how does the ecu tune get more power while stressing the engine less?

(Serious question, as it sounds counter intuitive to me)
__________________
So far: 200cell downpipe, custom exhaust, lifhtweight splitter, m4 comp seats
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2018, 07:37 AM   #24
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GerardzM View Post
But that's what most want to do lol

I completely agree with you.

Am running the JB4 on Map3 (Methanol Map)
And it pulled strong in 113 degree heat.

But I've since decided to run the stock map and just use the injection to recoup the power that is lost through the crap 91 octane...stuff should be illegal!
Hah true!
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2018, 07:39 AM   #25
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
I use Wagner Evo2 comp intercooler. It holds up pretty well at 17~18psi full range, either with stock or bigger turbo. A side note - bigger turbo runs cooler (cooler IAT and cooler turbo itself) because of less shaft speed and less backpressure. Turbo shares cooling oil with engine, so cooler turbo means cooler engine.

Last time of HPDE, 100+F ambient temp + 70+% humidity, IAT maxed at 125~128F, pretty stable, in every 20min section. TBH I didn't do longer than 30min as you did, so I don't know what could happen.

When you have enough cooling, you start to care about the rest - pressure loss, heat recovery and weight etc, then Wagner is the clear winner, at least for me.

Bigger auxiliary radiator will help for sure. CSF cooling pack is a nice upgrade, though you have to factor in the weight penalty on the front.
Thanks, Iíll look into the Wagner.

I havenít found anyone that makes a larger Auxiliary radiator, yet....
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2018, 09:31 AM   #26
pal
Lieutenant
pal's Avatar
189
Rep
555
Posts

Drives: Z4 M Coupe
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (1)

I am surprised your coolant temp is getting that high. Did you change your thermostat for a low temp unit?

I would kill for 266 oil temps in 100+ degree ambient track days. On my TT RS (Loba hybrid turbo, catless downpipe, mid-cats deleted, Forge Race intercooler, 21 psi tune), I can get upto 280 for oil on 20-25 min sessions when beating the piss out of the car. I back off a bit when I see 280. Sorta sad to see that Iíll have to deal with heat on the M2 once I start tracking it; my Z4MC was rock solid on track.
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2018, 09:42 AM   #27
cecaa850
Lieutenant
United_States
214
Rep
586
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South East TX.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pal View Post
I am surprised your coolant temp is getting that high. Did you change your thermostat for a low temp unit?

All that will do is open sooner, not make it run cooler if the cooling system is maxed out.
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2018, 01:45 PM   #28
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

I’ll take her in to my race shop over the next few weeks to figure out a solution.

All signs point to different IC setup to get more air across the radiator and figuring out how to get a larger main or aux radiator in place.
Appreciate 1
ceedawg440.50

      08-17-2018, 02:05 PM   #29
FaRKle!
Colonel
United_States
1573
Rep
2,052
Posts

Drives: '17 328d Sport Wagon
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Thanks, I’ll look into the Wagner.

I haven’t found anyone that makes a larger Auxiliary radiator, yet....
I would pick the ATM IC over the Wagner EVO 2 Comp. You can see my comparison between the two on track and in daily driving here.

The only thing to consider is there's a higher likelihood of having to play with fit a bit more with the ATM since the inlet/outlets are at slightly different positions from the stock IC. If you see what combos have worked for the CSF IC, that will work with the ATM too since CSF copied the end tanks and inlet/outlets from ATM.
Appreciate 2
ZM21159.50
AmuroRay113.50

      08-17-2018, 02:15 PM   #30
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaRKle! View Post
I would pick the ATM IC over the Wagner EVO 2 Comp. You can see my comparison between the two on track and in daily driving here.

The only thing to consider is there's a higher likelihood of having to play with fit a bit more with the ATM since the inlet/outlets are at slightly different positions from the stock IC. If you see what combos have worked for the CSF IC, that will work with the ATM too since CSF copied the end tanks and inlet/outlets from ATM.
Thanks.

Whatís the frontal footprint difference between these two? Because it sounds like the large ICs may be blocking air to the radiator, would the Wagner or ATM be better in this regard?

Does the ATM have additional pressure drop or lag vs the Wagner?
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2018, 02:26 PM   #31
GerardzM
First Lieutenant
308
Rep
384
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Who? View Post
Hey mate, how does the ecu tune get more power while stressing the engine less?

(Serious question, as it sounds counter intuitive to me)

Essentially changing parameters to optimize everything.

You can make more power with less boost as sometimes that etxa boost is just blowing extra hot air, just over stressing the engine.
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2018, 03:42 PM   #32
Jiaim
Private First Class
Jiaim's Avatar
33
Rep
116
Posts

Drives: 2007 PY Z4 3.0SI
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: France

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Do88?
https://www.do88.se/en/artiklar/hose...f87/index.html








Appreciate 2
ZM21159.50
bentom285.00

      08-17-2018, 04:43 PM   #33
FaRKle!
Colonel
United_States
1573
Rep
2,052
Posts

Drives: '17 328d Sport Wagon
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Thanks.

What’s the frontal footprint difference between these two? Because it sounds like the large ICs may be blocking air to the radiator, would the Wagner or ATM be better in this regard?

Does the ATM have additional pressure drop or lag vs the Wagner?
The Wagner core is 520 x 215mm (111800mm^2) and the ATM is 510 x 240mm (121890mm^2) per the mfgs, so the frontal core area on the ATM is 9% greater than the Wagner.

The Wagner seems to have less internal volume than the ATM, however the ATM has rounded header bars inside the end tanks to smooth out flow. On the track I didn't notice any difference. I did notice a small difference in daily driving, specifically when accelerating from a stop where the turbo drive is very low (since rpms are low). There was just a hint more lag with the ATM, but it was nowhere near as bad as another IC I tried where you'd try to accelerate, get very little, and then have a surge of power come on once the system pressurized. Not smooth or fun.

Here's a good post outlining the internal (also would apply to external) header bar shape and flow. ATM was the OEM/ODM for Helix. The Wagner Evo Comp 2 core inlet looks very similar to the tube/fin inlet in that example.

On the track, the ATM gave me an average of 3mph higher top speed over the Wagner on the front straight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaim View Post
That FMIC looks similar to the Wagner EVO 2 Performance, although there are some core differences. The end tanks are definitely modeled after Wagner.

Last edited by FaRKle!; 08-17-2018 at 04:56 PM..
Appreciate 2
ZM21159.50
AmuroRay113.50

      08-17-2018, 05:24 PM   #34
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the Wagner, ATM, and do88 info!

I like that do88 drop in remote radiator replacement! Not sure if that alone will be enough to solve my heat issues.

I need to compare specs on the do88 cooling pack items and the CSF items, too.

Last edited by ZM2; 08-17-2018 at 05:34 PM..
Appreciate 1
AmuroRay113.50

      08-18-2018, 03:42 AM   #35
M Fifty
Captain
367
Rep
920
Posts

Drives: M2 & 330CI
Join Date: May 2018
Location: The Interweb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Hereís a few options: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...452618&page=11

Any other thoughts out there?

Thanks.
I think the first thing - based on your first post - is to consider the ambient temperature.
Appreciate 0
      08-18-2018, 06:49 AM   #36
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
I think the first thing - based on your first post - is to consider the ambient temperature.
Change the weather! Let me get started on that.
Appreciate 1
JTO242631.50

      08-18-2018, 06:57 AM   #37
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaim View Post
From what I can tell, it looks like the CSF & do88 radiators are similar, the CSF oil cooler has more capacity, and the do88 only remote radiator adds 2/3 the fluid volume as doing the radiator upgrade, which is pretty decent in that small area.

So, I’ll at least add the do88 remote radiator, and continue to think about trying a different IC than the Dinan as an airflow experiment.
Appreciate 0
      08-18-2018, 01:13 PM   #38
Nezil
Major
Nezil's Avatar
1223
Rep
1,460
Posts

Drives: LCI '18 6MT M2
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GerardzM View Post
But that's what most want to do lol

I completely agree with you.

Am running the JB4 on Map3 (Methanol Map)
And it pulled strong in 113 degree heat.

But I've since decided to run the stock map and just use the injection to recoup the power that is lost through the crap 91 octane...stuff should be illegal!
GerardzM, I'm also stuck with crappy 91 octane fuel in Norcal, and am currently running BM3 Stage 2 91, but only because I add E85 to get to E20 every single tank. Without the additional E85, I was getting too much agressive timing corrections.

I'm strongly considering meth injection now, but am unsure how I'd go about implementing it from a controller perspective. As I said, I'm running BM3 Stage 2 91 currently, but this is a DME flash and therefore cannot control the meth. What are you using as a meth controller?
__________________
2018 ///M2 LCI, LBB, 6MT...

Current Performance Mods:
CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings
Appreciate 0
      08-18-2018, 04:58 PM   #39
M Fifty
Captain
367
Rep
920
Posts

Drives: M2 & 330CI
Join Date: May 2018
Location: The Interweb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Change the weather! Let me get started on that.
Or, considering that you're going to thrash it in such temperatures for the best part of an hour, accept that there are going to have to be compromises and focus on engine rather than charge cooling, and back off on the tune...
Appreciate 1
PLF69478.00

      08-18-2018, 08:34 PM   #40
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Fifty View Post
Or, considering that you're going to thrash it in such temperatures for the best part of an hour, accept that there are going to have to be compromises and focus on engine rather than charge cooling, and back off on the tune...
Yeah, I know where you were going, but what fun is that?
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2018, 09:57 AM   #41
SeanWRT
Colonel
SeanWRT's Avatar
2652
Rep
2,389
Posts

Drives: E90 M3 & F87 M2
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Shanghai

iTrader: (1)

Wagner vs ATM, there are two comparison thread with different results... Check below.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1141360

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1518971
__________________
Lemania 2320
Appreciate 2
ZM21159.50
ceedawg440.50

      08-19-2018, 10:45 AM   #42
ZM2
Lieutenant Colonel
1160
Rep
1,896
Posts

Drives: 2017 LBB M2
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Baltimore

iTrader: (0)

The additional lag (however small) of the ATM has me hesitant to go that direction.

And, would love to see a head to head bn one of these and the Dinan. Haven’t found one.

Last edited by ZM2; 08-19-2018 at 10:58 AM..
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2018, 01:40 PM   #43
GerardzM
First Lieutenant
308
Rep
384
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezil View Post
GerardzM, I'm also stuck with crappy 91 octane fuel in Norcal, and am currently running BM3 Stage 2 91, but only because I add E85 to get to E20 every single tank. Without the additional E85, I was getting too much agressive timing corrections.

I'm strongly considering meth injection now, but am unsure how I'd go about implementing it from a controller perspective. As I said, I'm running BM3 Stage 2 91 currently, but this is a DME flash and therefore cannot control the meth. What are you using as a meth controller?
At this point I'm just running the JB4 to control the methanol system...which is the BMS system.

You have a few options since that route might not be one you'd want to take...(have to buy the JB4 just to run their system)

Main options are Snow Performance, AEM, Devils Own.....and probably the best one out there. Aquamist HFS-4. These would have there own controllers.
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2018, 01:46 PM   #44
M Fifty
Captain
367
Rep
920
Posts

Drives: M2 & 330CI
Join Date: May 2018
Location: The Interweb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2 View Post
Yeah, I know where you were going, but what fun is that?
Well, you appear to be focussing on peak power as a way to minimise lap time. There are other ways to do that without getting taken to the cleaners by suppliers of tuning and cooling parts.

Based on the links you're posting, it might be cheaper to move to Canada...
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:14 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST