[fullstack]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

I think you mean bigger turbo... not better... bigger comes with its own challenges in getting a smooth power curve. Also, I get a kick out of when people list 'better cooling AND a closed deck' together. It should read 'better cooling, which is needed because of the closed deck'.

Jury is still out on the assessment the b58 is a 'much better engine.' It is an excellent engine... but has little history at high outputs and on the track. Plus the maintenance challenges caused by some of those design decisions still need to be played out. Let's not nominate it for Canton just yet.

I'm not a 100% sure of this but i would guess a closed deck would need better cooling because it takes more time for the heat to dissipate. However i don't think this means that the better cooling should be viewed as a crutch. Air to water is newer tech. If one had that as an option on the open deck n55 wouldn't one choose the better cooling method even though one's engine block has less demand for it?

And i was thinking in terms of a "regular car" engine when i said that i thought that the b58 is a much better engine. I think that the b58 is a much more capable regular engine than the regular n55. I'm not an engine mechanic but i can see that with a tune it could be a lot better than the tuned n55 and it already has the forged internals.

The engine out maintenance of the vanos seems like a poor design but i'm hoping (for the sake of the engine) that they made it easier to drop the engine.

[andrettifan]

Originally Posted by CAVU

The M2 is a fantastic car, people are likely selling for a variety of reasons (changing needs, etc.) or simply want to upgrade to a newer version of the M2 or even a different car.

For what it's worth, I came from a 135is. As much as I love my M2, and the incremental improvements it offers in performance and handling (and LSD!), I often conclude that I would have been better off just to keep the 135is and spend the extra money on something else.

I have the exact same experience and reaction. I came from a 135is and as much as I love my M2, I keep wondering if it was all worth it. The 135is is much, MUCH rarer. I LOVED my 135is. I love my M2.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by andrettifan

I have the exact same experience and reaction. I came from a 135is and as much as I love my M2, I keep wondering if it was all worth it. The 135is is much, MUCH rarer. I LOVED my 135is. I love my M2.

I traded in my low mileage, 2013, 135i in on my M2, which I've now had for a couple of weeks and put 800 miles on. My 135i had the PPK engine flash on it pushing the HP up to 320, and some suspension mods that didn't do much in my opinion. The traded in 135i was black on black, a color combination I'm not all that fond of, plus the low end stereo although I had upgraded the speakers with Focals. It also was out of warranty. I still own, and do not plan to sell, either my 1M or my 135is convertible, which is black with a red interior, and has the HK stereo. The convertible still has almost 3 years left of a Carmax extended warranty on it.

Financially speaking, there is no way I could ever justify the purchase of the M2, which cost me ~$35K USD after the trade in, plus a couple of thousand dollars in taxes. The M2 is just not worth $37K more to me than that 135i was, and the performance differences, while there, aren't astounding.

But, I knew that going in. I really like the M2, it's the only car BMW makes now that I would even consider buying, and it is nice to have a car that is similar enough to my 1M, that I can put some miles on without worrying about putting too many miles on the 1M, also I'll drive the M2 in the winter with snow tires, something I would never do with my 1M.

[andrettifan]

Originally Posted by champignon

I traded in my low mileage, 2013, 135i in on my M2, which I've now had for a couple of weeks and put 800 miles on. My 135i had the PPK engine flash on it pushing the HP up to 320, and some suspension mods that didn't do much in my opinion. The traded in 135i was black on black, a color combination I'm not all that fond of, plus the low end stereo although I had upgraded the speakers with Focals. It also was out of warranty. I still own, and do not plan to sell, either my 1M or my 135is convertible, which is black with a red interior, and has the HK stereo. The convertible still has almost 3 years left of a Carmax extended warranty on it.

Financially speaking, there is no way I could ever justify the purchase of the M2, which cost me ~$35K USD after the trade in, plus a couple of thousand dollars in taxes. The M2 is just not worth $37K more to me than that 135i was, and the performance differences, while there, aren't astounding.

But, I knew that going in. I really like the M2, it's the only car BMW makes now that I would even consider buying, and it is nice to have a car that is similar enough to my 1M, that I can put some miles on without worrying about putting too many miles on the 1M, also I'll drive the M2 in the winter with snow tires, something I would never do with my 1M.

Totally understand and agree. I have wondered about trading my M2 for a 1M but I doubt anyone with a 1M would be interested. But just in case some such person is reading this, my 2017 M2 has 10K miles. I know, a 1M is likely worth more than a two year old M2 at this point, but....

[nachob]

Originally Posted by andrettifan

Totally understand and agree. I have wondered about trading my M2 for a 1M but I doubt anyone with a 1M would be interested. But just in case some such person is reading this, my 2017 M2 has 10K miles. I know, a 1M is likely worth more than a two year old M2 at this point, but....

There might be, you never know.

I also prefer the 1M over the M2 but I am one of the hard-core guys that Kay Zegler targeted the 1M to. The 1M came about because a few people at BMW felt like me.

I was disappointed with how heavy the E90 M3 had gotten and how much tech and what I call fluff was on it. BMW had stopped making smaller, lighter, edgier cars was about to leave BMW forever.

I griped bitterly and was blasted left and right. I was called a dinosaur for wanting a small focused M car. E90 M3s guys were saying, it's probably because I couldn't afford an M3 and all sorts of BS.

If you watch this video of the 1M champion, Kay Segler, he keeps saying "pure, simple" and it should be a manual. He also says at 1:50 that many will want to order it with no options. Pure and focused. He was speaking to us and I did order a no option car with a manual. No nav, no nothing. Many however just ordered it because it was the next great thing and they ordered them loaded with heavier power seats, nav, idrive, motorized folding mirrors and then they griped about exhaust drone, one guy griped because the driver sunshade didn't have a light in the vanity mirror. A bunch of guys wanted to put active suspension so they could get a cushier ride, etc. So there are some guys out there that would trade.

I sold my first 1M because work was laying people off and I was next in line and I was offered more than I paid for it. I didn't get laid off and 1M prices went crazy. I was first on the list for an M2 and waited, but when it came out it was iDrive and big screen only. It was power seats and folding mirrors only. It had active sound mandatory. The replaced the oil gauge with an M2 logo and whatever. Then I drove M235i with electric steering since M2 was not out and I started a look for a used 1M. It was hard to find a no option low mileage 1M with low miles that was not $65K. I finally located one in Toronto, Canada that I had to import and drive cross country from Toronto to San Diego. So you see how crazy I am about this car.

I am still in contact with the gentleman that sold me the 1M he bought an M2. He told me recently that he has been looking for another 1M and also regrets selling it. He will put up his M2 for sale soon.

It is important to say that I think the M2 is one of the most compelling BMWs made today and it has several advantages over the 1M. Warranty, easier to drive, quicker and most important for me is that it is a replaceable car. I worry about the 1M since it was so difficult to get and replace that sometimes I just want an M2 that delivers 90% of the 1M fun but you can just buy another if you wreck it.

So there are a lot of people that ended up with the 1M that shouldn't have and they are better suited to an M2.

Many here that love the M2, you are right to love it, it is the best modern BMW and most don't understand why people like the 1M because they forget that there was nothing small, light and focused from BMW in 2011. It was all bloated, big and heavy.

The 1M represents the last gasp of BMW old school focus that died with it. You could get one just as Kay Segler said, no options, manual only. Even a no option M2 has all this other stuff on top now that every other car nowadays. Not only was it old school in a way, it was somewhat pure with a simple cockpit with large clear instruments. It had plain black purposeful calipers with no BMW stickers on it. Things like that is what "pure" means. It had no comfort button for suspension or active sound..... just a big engine in front, a stick in the middle and drives big wheels in the back. As Clarkson said: "Page 1, Chapter 1 of the Petrosexual manual."

Finally, it was also a ground breaking car. It was the first turbo M car. First M car with somewhat plain motor. It was the first car I know of with air curtains which every single new BMW now has along with almost every other car now. The 1M was the first one to have that.

Again, I am only mentioning this stuff because many people have forgotten or don't know the story of the 1M and they can't understand why the car remains special to many BMW fans. Sometimes people forget what was happening at the time.

So as cars get cushier and more automated, the 1M and many of the older BMWs are being more appreciated. So hang in there. It took me two years from my first 1M to get back to finding the right one.

Best wishes.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by champignon

I traded in my low mileage, 2013, 135i in on my M2, which I've now had for a couple of weeks and put 800 miles on. My 135i had the PPK engine flash on it pushing the HP up to 320, and some suspension mods that didn't do much in my opinion. The traded in 135i was black on black, a color combination I'm not all that fond of, plus the low end stereo although I had upgraded the speakers with Focals. It also was out of warranty. I still own, and do not plan to sell, either my 1M or my 135is convertible, which is black with a red interior, and has the HK stereo. The convertible still has almost 3 years left of a Carmax extended warranty on it.

Financially speaking, there is no way I could ever justify the purchase of the M2, which cost me ~$35K USD after the trade in, plus a couple of thousand dollars in taxes. The M2 is just not worth $37K more to me than that 135i was, and the performance differences, while there, aren't astounding.

But, I knew that going in. I really like the M2, it's the only car BMW makes now that I would even consider buying, and it is nice to have a car that is similar enough to my 1M, that I can put some miles on without worrying about putting too many miles on the 1M, also I'll drive the M2 in the winter with snow tires, something I would never do with my 1M.

I have this feeling you're going to look back on the M2 as a great car. It's not special enough that you won't drive it, but it's unique enough to be more fun and interesting than other options you have like a Golf R. It's just practical enough for daily use in most situations, but unpractical enough that it turns same heads and it's still fun to drive. Maybe years later that combination made it great.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by champignon

I traded in my low mileage, 2013, 135i in on my M2, which I've now had for a couple of weeks and put 800 miles on. My 135i had the PPK engine flash on it pushing the HP up to 320, and some suspension mods that didn't do much in my opinion. The traded in 135i was black on black, a color combination I'm not all that fond of, plus the low end stereo although I had upgraded the speakers with Focals. It also was out of warranty. I still own, and do not plan to sell, either my 1M or my 135is convertible, which is black with a red interior, and has the HK stereo. The convertible still has almost 3 years left of a Carmax extended warranty on it.

Financially speaking, there is no way I could ever justify the purchase of the M2, which cost me ~$35K USD after the trade in, plus a couple of thousand dollars in taxes. The M2 is just not worth $37K more to me than that 135i was, and the performance differences, while there, aren't astounding.

But, I knew that going in. I really like the M2, it's the only car BMW makes now that I would even consider buying, and it is nice to have a car that is similar enough to my 1M, that I can put some miles on without worrying about putting too many miles on the 1M, also I'll drive the M2 in the winter with snow tires, something I would never do with my 1M.

Agree... $37K is a lot for a new warranty.. However trading in the 135 was the best decision. it will lose further value..
The M2.. will of course lose some value... but as with most M cars.. will settle out somewhere well above the 135.. although again.. probably will not settle at a value $37k more.. $27K perhaps... but not $37K.

Originally Posted by akkando

I have this feeling you're going to look back on the M2 as a great car. It's not special enough that you won't drive it, but it's unique enough to be more fun and interesting than other options you have like a Golf R. It's just practical enough for daily use in most situations, but unpractical enough that it turns same heads and it's still fun to drive. Maybe years later that combination made it great.

I agree... I imagine it will likely prove to be a better daily than the 135...however.. still not as special as the 135 vert or the 1M that he owns. In other words... I can see it remaining in 3rd place in the @champignon garage love sweepstakes..

[champignon]

Originally Posted by akkando

I have this feeling you're going to look back on the M2 as a great car. It's not special enough that you won't drive it, but it's unique enough to be more fun and interesting than other options you have like a Golf R. It's just practical enough for daily use in most situations, but unpractical enough that it turns same heads and it's still fun to drive. Maybe years later that combination made it great.

Don't misunderstand me; I like the car and I intend to keep it for quite a while. I am already thinking about getting rid of my Golf R, either at the end of this summer, or no later than next spring, and not replacing it, because the M2 is enough more functional, in terms of passenger and cargo capacity, that I don't need the R any longer.

I just think the 1M is better . . . . . if not as practical.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree... $37K is a lot for a new warranty.. However trading in the 135 was the best decision. it will lose further value..
The M2.. will of course lose some value... but as with most M cars.. will settle out somewhere well above the 135.. although again.. probably will not settle at a value $37k more.. $27K perhaps... but not $37K.

I agree... I imagine it will likely prove to be a better daily than the 135...however.. still not as special as the 135 vert or the 1M that he owns. In other words... I can see it remaining in 3rd place in the @champignon garage love sweepstakes..

But I have 2 other cars that I really like also, a 2003 911 996 TT, and a 2000, S52, Z3M coupe. Neither of these get as much "seat time" as I would like, and I'd probably add the convertible to this list because I just don't live in "convertible country."

But the Golf R is the one car I have that doesn't put much of a smile on my face when I drive it, even though it is a great compromise car and is very functional, for what it is. This is why its time is limited in my garage and why it is going to be gotten rid of. And, I won't plan on replacing it since 5 cars will be enough trouble to take care of, and enough expense, and I have found that 6 is ridiculous.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by nachob

There might be, you never know.

I also prefer the 1M over the M2 but I am one of the hard-core guys that Kay Zegler targeted the 1M to. The 1M came about because a few people at BMW felt like me.

I was disappointed with how heavy the E90 M3 had gotten and how much tech and what I call fluff was on it. BMW had stopped making smaller, lighter, edgier cars was about to leave BMW forever.

I griped bitterly and was blasted left and right. I was called a dinosaur for wanting a small focused M car. E90 M3s guys were saying, it's probably because I couldn't afford an M3 and all sorts of BS.

If you watch this video of the 1M champion, Kay Segler, he keeps saying "pure, simple" and it should be a manual. He also says at 1:50 that many will want to order it with no options. Pure and focused. He was speaking to us and I did order a no option car with a manual. No nav, no nothing. Many however just ordered it because it was the next great thing and they ordered them loaded with heavier power seats, nav, idrive, motorized folding mirrors and then they griped about exhaust drone, one guy griped because the driver sunshade didn't have a light in the vanity mirror. A bunch of guys wanted to put active suspension so they could get a cushier ride, etc. So there are some guys out there that would trade.

I sold my first 1M because work was laying people off and I was next in line and I was offered more than I paid for it. I didn't get laid off and 1M prices went crazy. I was first on the list for an M2 and waited, but when it came out it was iDrive and big screen only. It was power seats and folding mirrors only. It had active sound mandatory. The replaced the oil gauge with an M2 logo and whatever. Then I drove M235i with electric steering since M2 was not out and I started a look for a used 1M. It was hard to find a no option low mileage 1M with low miles that was not $65K. I finally located one in Toronto, Canada that I had to import and drive cross country from Toronto to San Diego. So you see how crazy I am about this car.

I am still in contact with the gentleman that sold me the 1M he bought an M2. He told me recently that he has been looking for another 1M and also regrets selling the it. He will put up his M2 for sale soon.

It is important to say that I think the M2 is one of the most compelling BMWs made today and it has several advantages over the 1M. Warranty, easier to drive, quicker and most important for me is that it is a replaceable car. I worry about the 1M since it was so difficult to get and replace that sometimes I just want an M2 that delivers 90% of the 1M fun but you can just buy another if you wreck it.

So there are a lot of people that ended up with the 1M that shouldn't have and they are better suited to an M2.

Many here that love the M2, you are right to love it, it is the best modern BMW and most don't understand why people like the 1M because they forget that there was nothing small, light and focused from BMW in 2011. It was all bloated, big and heavy.

The 1M represents the last gasp of BMW old school focus that died with it. You could get one just as Kay Segler said, no options, manual only. Even a no option M2 has all this other stuff on top now that every other car nowadays. Not only was it old school in a way, it was somewhat pure with a simple cockpit with large clear instruments. It had plain black purposeful calipers with no BMW stickers on it. Things like that is what "pure" means. It had no comfort button for suspension or active sound..... just a big engine in front, a stick in the middle and drives big wheels in the back. As Clarkson said: "Page 1, Chapter 1 of the Petrosexual manual."

Finally, it was also a ground breaking car. It was the first turbo M car. First M car with somewhat plain motor. It was the first car I know of with air curtains which every single new BMW now has along with almost every other car now. The 1M was the first one to have that.

Again, I am only mentioning this stuff because many people have forgotten or don't know the story of the 1M and they can't understand why the car remains special to many BMW fans. Sometimes people forget what was happening at the time.

So as cars get cushier and more automated, the 1M and many of the older BMWs are being more appreciated. So hang in there. It took me two years from my first 1M to get back to finding the right one.

Best wishes.

And if they would only build another one.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by akkando

I have this feeling you're going to look back on the M2 as a great car. It's not special enough that you won't drive it, but it's unique enough to be more fun and interesting than other options you have like a Golf R. It's just practical enough for daily use in most situations, but unpractical enough that it turns same heads and it's still fun to drive. Maybe years later that combination made it great.

I think you make a good point. The 1M was special because cars around it became somewhat duller and it stands out. So gauging the M2 by the rawer nature of the 1M, we prefer the 1M.

However the future is bleak. Cars will become even more detached, automated, gadgetized that while not as raw as the 1M, the M2 will seem rawer and more special than the self driving cars of the future.

Especially Manual M2s since everything in the future will be automatic!

So yes, the m2 will be thought of in the future as a driver's car much as the e36 was slightly less edgy than the e30 m3 it replaced.

I still see a clean manual e36 m3 in estoril blue and want one even though I prefer the e30 M3 if I could only have one of them.