M2 transmission: do you prefer manual or M-DCT ?

Artemis · 06-01-2017, 12:18 PM

500 individual votes are in: 3/5 manual and 2/5 M-DCT (confirming the breakdown right from the start of this poll):

Stats after 500 votes:

305 out of 500 = 61.00%: manual transmission;
195 out of 500 = 39.00%: M-DCT Drivelogic.

stren · 06-01-2017, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmilani

Had the same problem for quite a while. Also hate the gear change suggestion, making it harder to read at a glance when going fast.

It gets easier over time I've found to know which gear you are in with an auto. Took me several years though. With a manual it's surprising just how much the memory of where you last moved the stick lets you know and without that you have to almost relearn how to remember. I do think the DCTs really could benefit from a hud showing the current gear. It's more useful IMO for the street where you might want to shift multiple gears at once and while it's not going to let you moneyshift the transmission it's still annoying to drop into the wrong gear and either be lagging or close to redlining instead of in the power band.

coaxial · 06-01-2017, 12:45 PM

I own the 6mt.

Something I read on these forums a while back. "You will always hear why people justify why they went with a dual clutch, you will never hear a manual guy justify why he went with a manual.

coaxial · 06-01-2017, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmilani

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerobat

For a person who have been driving MT all his life a DCT might be more difficult since you are not sure which gear you are in at all times when driving fast. That NEVER happens to me in a manual.

Had the same problem for quite a while. Also hate the gear change suggestion, making it harder to read at a glance when going fast.

The gear suggestion, mpg readout were the second items I turned off, after the auto start stop.

3Si · 06-01-2017, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coaxial

I own the 6mt.

Something I read on these forums a while back. "You will always hear why people justify why they went with a dual clutch, you will never hear a manual guy justify why he went with a manual.

This thread wouldn't exist if that was the case...

Artemis · 06-01-2017, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coaxial

I own the 6mt.
Something I read on these forums a while back. "You will always hear why people justify why they went with a dual clutch, you will never hear a manual guy justify why he went with a manual.

In the past I tried to explain (rather than to "justify") my personal preference for the manual transmission.

-----------------------------------------
Drive what you personally like most. Don't let your choice depend on what others prefer. It's your car. Most of the time you will like the transmission you have and sometimes, depending on circumstances and mood, you wish you had the other transmission. Anyway, despite differences regarding concept and driving feel, both are 'win'.

Two posts from the past explaining why my vote goes to 6MT (additional factor: grown up with manual transmissions).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Speaking for myself: 6MT was a deliberate choice from day 1 of the M2 ordering process (and even long before).

My dealer asked me a couple of times if I remained convinced of my 6MT choice "because the M-DCT is a technology marvel". I replied that I did by no means doubt that the M-DCT is a nice piece of machinery, shifting at the blink of an eye. But no matter how brilliant it is, by nature it could never perform the unlimited number of nuances that you can achieve with a 6MT.

With the M-DCT the computer calls the shots, and does so in a perfectly pre-programmed fashion. Always the same routine, observing the computer instructions. The driver can only toggle between program packages (presets). Some prefer to mimic driving it in manual mode, but IMHO then you'd better get the real thing and start to use your left foot.

With the 6MT the driver calls the shots, both feet are active and can perform all subtle nuances at will as regards timing, mechanics and sound. The driver is in charge. No machine can touch this. And then there's also that peculiar feeling of the right hand resting on the gear lever and working that gearbox. As I noted in a previous comment: if only you would know how I'm smiling like a young kid at the fairground, when enjoying that visceral and tactile pleasure of rowing through the gears of my 6MT M2.

Here's an older post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Quote:

Originally Posted by nachob

Same here. Have always had one manual and one auto in the stable. I even ran out and bought GTI with dual-clutch gearbox when it first came out, before BMW. Early adopter, but no many how many times I try to buy one, or drive auto loaner and test drive DCTs because that is the only thing available, it is not as fun for me as a manual. I also used to play guitar and I find the shifting a little like strumming a guitar and tapping my feet. It makes me feel connected to the machine in a way, the automatic doesn't. Even hitting the paddle, the shifts are so fast that they area out of rhythm but with a proper manual, you maintain the rhythm and it feels great.

We all know that it's a subjective, personal thing. Numerous, endless discussions about this topic at car forums.

True that it's nostalgia related, as technology inevitably evolves, improving situations.

But there is that peculiar physical and psychological aspect: rowing through gears with an MT feels more like as if the stick is an extension of your arm (and actually it is). Foot and arm operating in close harmony, as if you could touch - and stay in control over - the mechanics mounted onto the chassis. Getting you a little closer to experiencing the car's pulse (movements, bumps, clicks, vibrations, etc.). As a matter of fact, you got a more direct contact with the machinery - less 'sterile' compared to 'sending a message' to the machinery with a mini-moment paddle click or by delegating the whole shifting job to the robot for comfort purposes. And I don't mind that we can never match the speed, shifting perfection and consistency of the robot. No prizes to win. I consider it a benefit that one got to 'work' the machinery, that it requires more involvement. Though I fully understand that others will reply that AUTO/DCT is way more comfortable to operate.

Actually, I don't mind hearing someone gasping for breath when (s)he's singing a song or playing an instrument. I don't mind the artist and audience generating additional sounds that do not feature on the music score. To some extent all those additional sounds (noise?) could be edited out of the recording to achieve a more 'pure' sound, but I don't like that. For, often natural sounds feel more recognizable, more comfortable to connect to.

On the other hand, I do not mind embracing technology. If we adopt the same idea set out above to all sorts of assistance (warnings, DSC nannies, ABS, hill hold, navigation, comfort access, light and rain sensors, cruise control, high beam assist, power/memory seats, etc.) one could consider that you should leave it all off or out (if possible) to have a more 'pure' driving experience. Paradoxically, I don't mind those things (gadgets and gimmicks ?) to be on board and active. But as regards transmission, I'm an old skool MT aficionado.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verdi

I still agree with myself. I fail to see how this can even be a debate. It's personal taste. I can't get a feeling for the DCT to save my life. I'm constantly looking at the revs to know when to upshift. And when downshifting I don't really know which gear I'm in and to which gear I need to go. Do I downshift 2 times? 3 times? Who knows, I don't get a feeling for it. I really did try. For weeks I drove it in manual mode ALL the time. I got so exhausted by it. Took my full concentration to do it.
When driving a manual I know instinctively what to do. What gear to choose when and where.
I do understand that most guys do get a feeling for the DCT in manual mode and can enjoy it just like the 6MT. Or even more.
But it isn't a debate. Each to his own taste.
ps. I will finally get my 6MT M2 in a couple of weeks.

Let us say that it's a joy for the senses, including both hands and feet dancing around. The driver's seat as a workplace, rather than as your couch behind a switchboard. Push and pull, twist and shove, rather than 'click'. That visceral experience of more mechanics than electronics at play + you're in control.

Feel free to call me 'old fashioned' or 'oldskool': that diagonal movement to shift from 2nd to 3rd and back all the time through the twisties, physically using force to push the stick at arms' length away from you, and pulling it back towards you bending your arm (triggering the rev-match howl - yeah, I learned to accept it - when driving in any other mode than DSC OFF), both feet at work, climb a little further in those revs or not, that feeling of your right hand on the stick allowing you to instinctively (or more accurate: on the basis of your experience with the car) know exactly what gear you're in, etc. Priceless.

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coaxial · 06-01-2017, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Quote:

Originally Posted by coaxial

I own the 6mt.
Something I read on these forums a while back. "You will always hear why people justify why they went with a dual clutch, you will never hear a manual guy justify why he went with a manual.

In the past I tried to explain (rather than to "justify") my personal preference for the manual transmission.

-----------------------------------------
Drive what you personally like most. Don't let your choice depend on what others prefer. It's your car. Most of the time you will like the transmission you have and sometimes, depending on circumstances and mood, you wish you had the other transmission. Anyway, despite differences regarding concept and driving feel, both are 'win'.

Two posts from the past explaining why my vote goes to 6MT (additional factor: grown up with manual transmissions).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Speaking for myself: 6MT was a deliberate choice from day 1 of the M2 ordering process (and even long before).

My dealer asked me a couple of times if I remained convinced of my 6MT choice "because the M-DCT is a technology marvel". I replied that I did by no means doubt that the M-DCT is a nice piece of machinery, shifting at the blink of an eye. But no matter how brilliant it is, by nature it could never perform the unlimited number of nuances that you can achieve with a 6MT.

With the M-DCT the computer calls the shots, and does so in a perfectly pre-programmed fashion. Always the same routine, observing the computer instructions. The driver can only toggle between program packages (presets). Some prefer to mimic driving it in manual mode, but IMHO then you'd better get the real thing and start to use your left foot.

With the 6MT the driver calls the shots, both feet are active and can perform all subtle nuances at will as regards timing, mechanics and sound. The driver is in charge. No machine can touch this. And then there's also that peculiar feeling of the right hand resting on the gear lever and working that gearbox. As I noted in a previous comment: if only you would know how I'm smiling like a young kid at the fairground, when enjoying that visceral and tactile pleasure of rowing through the gears of my 6MT M2.

Here's an older post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Quote:

Originally Posted by nachob

Same here. Have always had one manual and one auto in the stable. I even ran out and bought GTI with dual-clutch gearbox when it first came out, before BMW. Early adopter, but no many how many times I try to buy one, or drive auto loaner and test drive DCTs because that is the only thing available, it is not as fun for me as a manual. I also used to play guitar and I find the shifting a little like strumming a guitar and tapping my feet. It makes me feel connected to the machine in a way, the automatic doesn't. Even hitting the paddle, the shifts are so fast that they area out of rhythm but with a proper manual, you maintain the rhythm and it feels great.

We all know that it's a subjective, personal thing. Numerous, endless discussions about this topic at car forums.

True that it's nostalgia related, as technology inevitably evolves, improving situations.

But there is that peculiar physical and psychological aspect: rowing through gears with an MT feels more like as if the stick is an extension of your arm (and actually it is). Foot and arm operating in close harmony, as if you could touch - and stay in control over - the mechanics mounted onto the chassis. Getting you a little closer to experiencing the car's pulse (movements, bumps, clicks, vibrations, etc.). As a matter of fact, you got a more direct contact with the machinery - less 'sterile' compared to 'sending a message' to the machinery with a mini-moment paddle click or by delegating the whole shifting job to the robot for comfort purposes. And I don't mind that we can never match the speed, shifting perfection and consistency of the robot. No prizes to win. I consider it a benefit that one got to 'work' the machinery, that it requires more involvement. Though I fully understand that others will reply that AUTO/DCT is way more comfortable to operate.

Actually, I don't mind hearing someone gasping for breath when (s)he's singing a song or playing an instrument. I don't mind the artist and audience generating additional sounds that do not feature on the music score. To some extent all those additional sounds (noise?) could be edited out of the recording to achieve a more 'pure' sound, but I don't like that. For, often natural sounds feel more recognizable, more comfortable to connect to.

On the other hand, I do not mind embracing technology. If we adopt the same idea set out above to all sorts of assistance (warnings, DSC nannies, ABS, hill hold, navigation, comfort access, light and rain sensors, cruise control, high beam assist, power/memory seats, etc.) one could consider that you should leave it all off or out (if possible) to have a more 'pure' driving experience. Paradoxically, I don't mind those things (gadgets and gimmicks ?) to be on board and active. But as regards transmission, I'm an old skool MT aficionado.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verdi

I still agree with myself. I fail to see how this can even be a debate. It's personal taste. I can't get a feeling for the DCT to save my life. I'm constantly looking at the revs to know when to upshift. And when downshifting I don't really know which gear I'm in and to which gear I need to go. Do I downshift 2 times? 3 times? Who knows, I don't get a feeling for it. I really did try. For weeks I drove it in manual mode ALL the time. I got so exhausted by it. Took my full concentration to do it.
When driving a manual I know instinctively what to do. What gear to choose when and where.
I do understand that most guys do get a feeling for the DCT in manual mode and can enjoy it just like the 6MT. Or even more.
But it isn't a debate. Each to his own taste.
ps. I will finally get my 6MT M2 in a couple of weeks.

Let us say that it's a joy for the senses, including both hands and feet dancing around. The driver's seat as a workplace, rather than as your couch behind a switchboard. Push and pull, twist and shove, rather than 'click'. That visceral experience of more mechanics than electronics at play + you're in control.

Feel free to call me 'old fashioned' or 'oldskool': that diagonal movement to shift from 2nd to 3rd and back all the time through the twisties, physically using force to push the stick at arms' length away from you, and pulling it back towards you bending your arm (triggering the rev-match howl - yeah, I learned to accept it - when driving in any other mode than DSC OFF), both feet at work, climb a little further in those revs or not, that feeling of your right hand on the stick allowing you to instinctively (or more accurate: on the basis of your experience with the car) know exactly what gear you're in, etc. Priceless.

-----------------------------------------
Attachment 1632153

Well said. The DCT is wonderful no doubt. There is something about making every limb of my body responsible for something. The clutch is beautiful smooth and linear. It doesn't feel like the mid 2k BMW clutches I have driven in the past. Even in stop and go traffic it's a breeze.

pissclams · 06-01-2017, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

500 individual votes are in: 3/5 manual and 2/5 M-DCT (confirming the breakdown right from the start of this poll):

Stats after 500 votes:

305 out of 500 = 61.00%: manual transmission;
195 out of 500 = 39.00%: M-DCT Drivelogic.

Not surprised to see those statistics or the fact that most here choose the manual. Because the manual transmission is much easier for people to master, while the DCT is more challenging to the driver. Something magical and rightfully skillful about using a DCT while still feeling that special connection to the road and knowing what gear your in while doing it.

See, two can play at the "my transmission is better than yours" game and both sound equally ignorant doing it.

M5XDRIVE · 06-01-2017, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coaxial

I own the 6mt.

Something I read on these forums a while back. "You will always hear why people justify why they went with a dual clutch, you will never hear a manual guy justify why he went with a manual.

I have to say, they are funny at the very least.

M5XDRIVE · 06-01-2017, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pissclams

Not surprised to see those statistics or the fact that most here choose the manual. Because the manual transmission is much easier for people to master, while the DCT is more challenging to the driver. Something magical and rightfully skillful about using a DCT while still feeling that special connection to the road and knowing what gear your in while doing it.

See, two can play at the "my transmission is better than yours" game and both sound equally ignorant doing it.

No one is saying one is better than the other...You are still lost.

Benef1cient · 06-01-2017, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the past I tried to explain (rather than to "justify") my personal preference for the manual transmission.

-----------------------------------------
Drive what you personally like most. Don't let your choice depend on what others prefer. It's your car. Most of the time you will like the transmission you have and sometimes, depending on circumstances and mood, you wish you had the other transmission. Anyway, despite differences regarding concept and driving feel, both are 'win'.

Two posts from the past explaining why my vote goes to 6MT (additional factor: grown up with manual transmissions).

Just returned from M Grand Tour Driving Experience. All M cars were DCT but there were 2 manual M2's that instructors were driving. I couldn't drive them but asked to just check out the clutch and shifter - boy it was a revelation, now I know what I want

The clutch is longish but shifter is great and very rewarding in action - this is going to be my choice for sure

pissclams · 06-01-2017, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

No one is saying one is better than the other...You are still lost.

Keep splitting hairs, you're good at it. I'm the one that's lost? Lulz.

quikM2 · 06-01-2017, 02:45 PM

It does surprise there are those out there who will pay $3900 for the DCT over this brilliant no charge manual. if they were the same price I could understand this debate but for almost $4k it boggles my mind.

Robin_NL · 06-01-2017, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quikM2

It does surprise there are those out there who will pay $3900 for the DCT over this brilliant no charge manual. if they were the same price I could understand this debate but for almost $4k it boggles my mind.

In some countries DCT is for free/standard and the 6MT is an expensive option

Cheers
Robin

MaritimeM235i · 06-01-2017, 03:06 PM

Some of the fastest race cars on planet (F1) use flappy paddles for a reason, can't argue against it. DCT for me on track.

If I just want to cruise and feel like old school, 6MT.

Artemis · 06-01-2017, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaritimeM235i

Some of the fastest race cars on planet (F1) use flappy paddles for a reason, can't argue against it. DCT for me on track.
If I just want to cruise and feel like old school, 6MT.

One of the countless reasons why Senna was such a great pilot: watch his body and mind coordination in the video below:

MaritimeM235i · 06-01-2017, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

One of the countless reasons why Senna was such a great pilot: watch his body and mind coordination in the video below:

You can't argue that Senna was on top of his game and way ahead of everyone that day...until he pushed a little too far.

M2Nebula · 06-01-2017, 05:30 PM

Thanks for the clip. I'm sure many of you have seen the documentary, but here it is anyway, one of my favorites.

http://documentary-movie.com/senna/

Also, for all you bike racing fans, IOM starts this week, no DCT here, sorry :-] .....some speed shifting, but not on downshifts.

akkando · 06-01-2017, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coaxial

I own the 6mt.

Something I read on these forums a while back. "You will always hear why people justify why they went with a dual clutch, you will never hear a manual guy justify why he went with a manual.

Probably because people who bought the DCT don't accuse others of buying the wrong transmission or not knowing how to do simple things.

Artemis · 06-01-2017, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaritimeM235i

You can't argue that Senna was on top of his game and way ahead of everyone that day...until he pushed a little too far.

Indeed. Because Senna did not only want to win. He wanted to win his way.

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aerobat · 06-02-2017, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Indeed. Because Senna did not only want to win. He wanted to win his way.

Attachment 1632345

Attachment 1632336

Attachment 1632337

Senna would always use the technology that made him faster. At the time there was nothing better.

M5XDRIVE · 06-02-2017, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pissclams

Keep splitting hairs, you're good at it. I'm the one that's lost? Lulz.

You are the one splitting hairs when I said the MT is more "fun." Then you come in accusing of stop the "ones better than the other one." I actually said DCT faster but MT is more fun.

Mr. Hair splitter you.

View Poll Results: M2 transmission: do you prefer manual or double-clutch ?
Manual transmission	451	61.61%
M-DCT Drivelogic	281	38.39%
Voters: 732. You may not vote on this poll

06-01-2017, 12:18 PM	#243
Artemis Moderator 29357 Rep 13,097 Posts Drives: BMW M2 Competition Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Belgium iTrader: (0)	500 individual votes are in: 3/5 manual and 2/5 M-DCT (confirming the breakdown right from the start of this poll): Stats after 500 votes: 305 out of 500 = 61.00%: manual transmission; 195 out of 500 = 39.00%: M-DCT Drivelogic. __________________ ///M is art ↔ Artemis
	Appreciate 0 Quote

06-01-2017, 12:45 PM	#245
coaxial Enlisted Member 21 Rep 31 Posts Drives: On Order 2017 LBB M2 Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Los Angeles, CA iTrader: (0)	I own the 6mt. Something I read on these forums a while back. "You will always hear why people justify why they went with a dual clutch, you will never hear a manual guy justify why he went with a manual.
	Appreciate 2 SoCalRob281.00 M3 Adjuster7905.50 Quote

06-01-2017, 02:45 PM	#255
quikM2 Captain 371 Rep 743 Posts Drives: 2017 Jahre M3 Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Canada iTrader: (0)	It does surprise there are those out there who will pay $3900 for the DCT over this brilliant no charge manual. if they were the same price I could understand this debate but for almost $4k it boggles my mind.
	Appreciate 1 M3 Adjuster7905.50 Quote

06-01-2017, 03:06 PM	#257
MaritimeM235i New Member 3 Rep 9 Posts Drives: 2015 M235i, Estoril Blue Join Date: May 2017 Location: Canada iTrader: (0) Garage List 2015 BMW M235i [0.00]	Some of the fastest race cars on planet (F1) use flappy paddles for a reason, can't argue against it. DCT for me on track. If I just want to cruise and feel like old school, 6MT.
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06-01-2017, 05:30 PM	#260
M2Nebula Captain 548 Rep 642 Posts Drives: M2, X1, TSX WGN Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: New England iTrader: (0)	Thanks for the clip. I'm sure many of you have seen the documentary, but here it is anyway, one of my favorites. http://documentary-movie.com/senna/ Also, for all you bike racing fans, IOM starts this week, no DCT here, sorry :-] .....some speed shifting, but not on downshifts.
	Appreciate 0 Quote