11-23-2014, 09:52 AM | #23 | |
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The Alfa 4C with modest power just seems to offer construction and looks, non-assisted steering and enough quickness to be a rarity. Someone thought the Alfa might have used a traditional transmission and I mention it uses a double-clutch, I'd enjoy both manual or double-clutch trans, so that spec wouldn't exclude a car necessarily - but I do like the simplicity of a manual. I'd rather have a 1M over any Cayman, so I'm fascinated by what the M2 could be. And if I decided to go upmarket then either an M4/M3 would be my preferred choice. I used to be very into Porsche, up into the early nineties Porsche was still hand-forming fenders and no other car had interior ergonomics like a 911. I appreciate the reliability and cornering of a GT3, but if I wanted to experience the upper echelon of performance I'd probably prefer the new Yamaha R1, maybe Ducati 899. Last edited by overcoil; 11-23-2014 at 09:59 AM.. |
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11-23-2014, 12:33 PM | #24 |
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Another fringe benefit of the M2: unlike the Cayman, Elise and 4C, four people can enjoy the motoring fun at the same time.
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11-23-2014, 02:08 PM | #26 | ||
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In terms of performance, I'm willing to bet that the GT4 will be faster at most race tracks, but the M2 will cover ground faster in the real world. The GT4 will probably give up a bit of day to day usability over the Cayman GTS. The M2 might even be more fun to drive in day to day situations, who knows. Last edited by vantagesc; 11-23-2014 at 02:17 PM.. |
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11-23-2014, 04:10 PM | #27 |
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the Cayman GTS is a better comparison to the M2 market. Sorry but the GT4 will be in a different league to the M2.
I had a chance to spend some time driving a Cayman GTS several months ago. I liked it but walked away preferring the 1M driving experience. It seems that as long as the M2 continues the 1M genetics it too will compare well to the GTS. |
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11-23-2014, 04:46 PM | #28 | |
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I own a 1M, have plenty of seat time in quick Caymans but don't particularly love them, and have a deposit down on a GT4 (but I'm not sure I'll take it). I'd probably have gotten a new GT3 if it had been available with a manual. I'm not shopping for performance exactly, but for adjust-ability, a certain balance of grip and power, interactivity and experience. My predictions- I expect each to be strong in different areas: The M2 will probably be more fun at lower (street) speeds. It will be easier to steer with the right foot because it will have less grip overall. I like the overall size and traction vs power balance of the 1M, and the M2 should continue this. As speed climbs the chassis will prove less competent and it'll be less fun than the GT4. It likely won't be track-durable or warranted, so the combo would likely restrict it to a street car. Things that could tip me towards the M2: a more composed chassis on/ over the limit, improved progressiveness over the limit at higher speeds, better track durability/ warranty. More suspension adjust-ability (camber, swaybars). All while not losing the playful/ sideways character. The GT4 will probably have too much grip for its own good, making it less mobile and fun at low speeds. As speeds climb it will come into its own, however it'll probably always be more grip than would be ideal to get the chassis really moving around anywhere short of the track. It'll still be good fun up to 8/10ths, beyond which the rear suspension will let it down (vs a 911/ GT3) making it less progressive at the limit or rewarding over it. It will likely come with a warranty good for the track, good because that's where it'll be most fun. Things that could tip me towards the GT4: more ability to steer with the right foot, especially at low speeds. A more playful/ progressive rear end at and over the limit. Improved power to weight ratio vs msrp. I don't see the 4C as having the chassis tuning needed to go with its spec sheet, and wouldn't consider it. The GT350 or F Type R/ GT3 might make the list. The M3/ M4 won't- too big, as the AMG GT3 will likely be. I've got a few other cars, so I'm trying to fill a "fun, mostly street, serious driver's car" spot in the fleet.
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11-23-2014, 08:34 PM | #29 | |
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In terms of the other cars you mention, the F Type R stood out to me as a bit out of place on the list. I have driven this car a few times on the road, and it feels pretty good... but you can really feel it's weight. I spoke to one of the Jaguar pro drivers, and he admitted to me that it was "rubish" on the track.
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11-23-2014, 08:56 PM | #30 | |
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11-24-2014, 12:14 AM | #31 |
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I would be happy if the M2 even comes close in terms of sports car characteristics to the Cayman GTS much less the GT4. If you haven't driven a GTS then you haven't driven one of the best sports cars ever made. It's astonishingly good and I can't imagine how good the GT4 is going to be. If you think a M2 will even come close then your expectations are out of whack
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11-24-2014, 05:13 AM | #32 | |
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11-24-2014, 06:29 AM | #33 |
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I have a 1M and it is one of the best cars I have ever owned will keep forever. Looking to add a M2 or Cayman GT4.. The 1M and Cayman R were so closely matched however I am concerned that Porsche has moved the game on so much with the Cayman GTS that the M2 won't get close to the GT4 or even GTS.
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11-24-2014, 11:38 AM | #34 | |
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A track-spec version may change that, but I'm not sure how they would shed enough weight to accomplish this. (Car and Driver lists the F Type R at 3917 lbs.)
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11-24-2014, 12:01 PM | #35 |
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We'll see- 98% of 911s are over-tired IMHO, so a direct "911 alike" is perhaps not what I'm after in a street car. And I did say I'm looking for a mostly street car, though my idea is different than most.
For those that think the Cayman GTS is the second coming, it came in 3rd in EVO's car of the year voting. The F-Type R was just ahead of it in second. I've always felt the Cayman is an opportunity for an epic car spoiled. It should handily walk the 911, but if you've ever had the opportunity to drive one over the limit you'll know it doesn't. You need to keep it relatively tidy, need to keep your foot out of it that bit more on exit, and so far they simply can't handle power nearly as well. Chalk it up to that strut rear suspension. Bottom line, the GT4 will need to get the back end working more like a 911 if it's going to get my money. Video by EVO below pitting the GTS against a 10 year old GT3 here. Both are great cars, but compare the size of the smile on his face: I'm looking forward to seeing what the AP and the GT guys can do. As for the M2, it will be outclassed in some ways absolutely, just as the 1M was vs the Cayman R, but it's the size of that smile that counts, and on that score I fully expect it to be able to compete.
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11-24-2014, 12:50 PM | #36 | |
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Last edited by vantagesc; 11-24-2014 at 12:55 PM.. |
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11-24-2014, 01:31 PM | #37 |
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Yea, I've got a friend with Cayman 3.8S, quite close to the anticipated Cayman GT4 specs in terms of power to weight (375 hp). I expected the 1M's torque advantage down low would put it ahead when we rolled on in higher gears, but in reality there are essentially no situations other than neither of us downshifting whatsoever that the Cayman doesn't have the 1M covered handily. It'll put on nearly a length as the 1M spools, then it's close but creeping away, then it walks away up top- true even in 5th. My 1M is only ~10hp up on stock, and I expect the M2 to be more and hopefully a little lighter, but then I also expect the GT4 to have more than 375 hp. The 1M feels faster due to power delivery, but even daily driving a Cayman in this power class is faster, and that's before you turn. As you might expect from a car with slightly more power and a significant weight advantage- the big on paper torque advantage is essentially nullified by wight and gearing.
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11-24-2014, 03:44 PM | #38 |
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Yep, that's 3.8S vs. 1M though. I haven't heard anywhere that the GT4 would get more than about 380hp, but maybe Porsche will say it only has 380hp, but in fact give it more.
Like I said, most people aren't revving their engines out on the way to work. If your commute permits that, then great. Particularly with PDK, it would be easy to keep the engine spinning with no effort. With my manual Lotus, I know how to keep the needle between 6k and 8k, but it takes work. Who needs coffee in the morning.... |
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11-24-2014, 04:31 PM | #39 |
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Not a Lotus. Revs not required. One can argue if that's a good thing or not.
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11-24-2014, 05:24 PM | #40 |
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To me, Caymans feel like they need some revs before coming alive. Definitely more linear though and less of an on/off switch than a 2ZZ-GE. I know some people are hoping for a 3.6L in the GT4 with more revs vs. a standard 3.8L.
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11-25-2014, 07:03 AM | #41 | |
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And another car that makes me smile a ton (especially when I can do powerslides at will) is the M4 which came 9th out of 10th in Evo's test so please excuse if I'm not inclined to put a lot of weight in their results. Last edited by onatuesday; 11-25-2014 at 12:03 PM.. |
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11-25-2014, 12:23 PM | #42 | |
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You know very well that a car's street credentials mostly don't translate into track credentials. If the playful nature of a car combined with some practicality and usability is what you are looking for, I think the M2 will be hard to better by any Cayman or any 911. I highly doubt and never seen a BMW perform better at the track than any Porsche of same era, may be my historical knowledge does not go far back enough. As we are seeing with the current F10, F13 F8x M series, once these cars get above a certain power to weight ratio, the rear end cannot keep enough traction due to that 'perfect' weight distribution BMW claims. As you mention, the Cayman and particularly the 911 has a much more mature and advantageous weight distribution for track performance and 911s rear suspension and latest gadgets (dynamic engine and transmission mounts) keep making it better. But that's for the track, I don't think any of that matters that much from a driving enjoyment perspective on the street. On the contrary, on the street, I think the Bimmers offer more lively and entertaining driving feel. Of course this is different for each person, but I believe people that have truly sampled the Porsches can relate to this, not the ones who have been visiting the marque as a tourist. IMHO, the 911 and its GT3 variant has passed a point in which you really cannot savior its abilities on the street. And given its price point, it is no longer an attractive choice for me even as a dual-purpose car. As I was shopping for a new car this summer having been a Porsche customer for over 10 years, I just could not get excited with the Cayman GTS, nor the GT3. When I test drove the M3/4 however, it had a little bit of a hooligan attitude on the street that somehow appealed to me. I was not expecting to like the car and had never thought of getting a BMW, but it did and I ordered one. I am awaiting for delivery and a new adventure. For track purposes, what's the point? I never won the DE championship regardless of Caymans or GT3 I had, so if I can get 80% of the enjoyment I got from those cars with an M4 (or even M2) for 50% of the price of a GT3, I think it is a great deal. We'll see of course, right now I am making a lot of assumptions. Coming back to my initial point, if the M2 is going to be playful enough for street, and you have other means of tracking/racing, how would a Cayman GTS/GT4, 911 GT3 or even the F-type make more sense particularly given their price points? It is hard to find a more suitable car for daily driving than the current M cars in my opinion, and I am not even a BMW fan |
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11-25-2014, 12:26 PM | #43 | |
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I'm also suggesting that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Out of seven EVO writers, who I consider the best automotive journalists in the world, none put the Cayman GTS higher than 3rd out of 10 cars. I also disagree with your statement that BMW "won't even come close to the Cayman GTS" with the M2. Head to head testing between the predecessors, the Cayman R and the 1M, often had the 1M ahead. You might be blown away by the GTS, and that's great- I hope you've had the chance to drive it at the track before coming to that conclusion. I (and others) find it slightly lacking. And yes I've driven it, along with most other Porsches you'll care to mention. Full disclosure, I am also paid to drive and have an opinion occasionally. The good thing is we can disagree; they make M4s, RS5s and Cayman GTSs to keep guys like you happy, and hopefully they'll also keep making cars to keep guys like me happy too from time to time. Deposit down for the GT4 hoping that's one of them.
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11-25-2014, 12:57 PM | #44 | |
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Anyways yes I do stand by my opinion that the GTS is one of the best sports cars ever made and many of the Porsche driving instructors tend to prefer it over any other car in the P car corral if the track is a small/medium twisty track. But absolutely respect that opinions can differ about something so subjective |
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