Quote:
Originally Posted by ZM2
F87source all great points and glad you laid them out like this.
I’m not a tuner, but I’ve completed and have looked at thousands of logs all with different fuels, temps, conditions, hardware, etc. My day job is data & trends, which helps when reviewing even tho I’m not an SME in this case.
What I can say is there’s something inherently different in the latest gen OTS that allows them to react to the variables you’ve mentioned within the tune, whereas the custom tunes just aim for a certain amount of timing & boost. This of course assumes you have the right hardware and fuel for a particular OTS.
This process controls style approach vs pure timing/boost targeting is what is allowing the new OTS maps to create as much or more power as custom, while being smoother and safer.
Everything you said has been spot on for OTS vs custom until Halim reworked everything and went to the 5.8 maps for the M2. He’s definitely in a league of his own right now. FWIW, I don’t think it’s even possible for a custom tuner to be able to make maps like 5.8 in the editor, so they’re at a distinct disadvantage—but again, I’m not a tuner and can’t confirm.
Altho, if someone wants to go get a custom tune and go back to back vs one of the 5.8 maps on a Dynojet, let’s see it. I predict that if they get more hp, it won’t be much, and it’ll eat into timing or boost safeties, and won’t perform as good year round.
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Yes I have also seen the bm3 logs and I must admit they are fricken unbelievably good, so good job to the ptf guys. Just some side notes I came from the JDM world and cobb accessport ots maps imo were trash so this is a refreshingly nice thing to see.
But all tunes try to adapt to the conditions the car is in, that's what the sensors for ambient conditions are for. However, it is up to the tuner to dial in the road map for the car to adjust - the better the road map the better the overall tune. As you can see PTF is getting that road map dialed in better and better each and every time, however this is where the complexities of having different mods, conditions, fuel etc come into play and makes it impossible to reach a one size fits all tune. There really is no special sauce that they are able to put in over a custom tuner, they are just able to keep refining the ots maps over and over again that it closes the gap. This is huge props to bm3 because these maps are usually free and it takes alot of time and energy to keep developing them for essentially no extra money.
No custom tuning is not just boost and timing vs. rpm, you also have to balance in load maps, fuelling etc. This is what separates a good tuner vs. a bad tuner. There is nothing special with how the ots maps are made vs. a custom tune, the reason why BM3 ots maps are so good is because they keep working on it over and over further refining. The reason why alot of custom tunes are utter crap is because either the tuner is lazy and simply uploads a similar tune final they use for every car of similar mods essentially an ots map, or the customer doesn't want to pay to get it done right. Here is what I used to do on my sti (I use the word tuned alot but in most cases it means further refinement of an existing map): get it tuned on the dyno because it is safe incase I need to stop the car, then get it tuned on part throttle, on/off throttle, A/C on, A/C off, cold starts in different temps, then a road tune, then finally I take it to the track and further refine it there. This process took months to a full year to complete and costed me thousands of dollars of dyno time and tuning time, but it was common in the subaru world where the stock ecu was shit and could not adapt. This is what has to be done to get a good map compared to what people do these days which is send some logs and that's it. I won't even get into the discussion of ecu table access making for better tuning, but that's also a factor.
I have dealt with adaptronic ecu's, haltechs, aem infinities with really good "auto tuning" abilities that far exceeds the ability of the stock ecu to learn and adapt, however the best these ecus can do is move the values closer to what they should be but it always requires a tuner to make the final adjustments. So again it is how the tuner makes the map, not some special feature present in the table editor.
I have also looked at their new maps you mentioned and it seems to be universal for ps2 and stock turbo, again this is a weak point. I saw what you wrote about it being more conservative for ps2 so it will work for stock as well, this is true but it means the tune is not optimized. For example the stock turbo is able to make boost sooner but is way out of its efficiency range at 20 psi whereas ps2 is not able to hit boost as soon but able to make more in the top end. The boost curves are also different with how much boost either turbo is able to make at different points in the rpm band, so if you want to make a one size fits all map for both turbos it will not be optimized for either one. A custom tune will be able to make the boost curve fit better to your car and mods allowing for the tune to feel smoother.
Sure a custom tune might not be able to make alot more power if at all, but it will definitely have a better area under the curve, a smoother power band and delivery, and it definitely will be safer. You do not have to pull all the safety out of tuning for a custom map you can leave the same amount of head room as an ots map you just make it fit better to your car. Remember tuning is not about max power as that does not translate into drivability, it is about area under the curve and power delivery - something that is not able to be perfected by an ots map because just like tailored suits and a human body there is no such thing as one size fits all. Also remember ots maps are tailored for max power to appeal more to the drag racing guys as the track community is almost none existent.
Well until AI becomes a reality and cars just auto tune themselves.
But overall I must applaud bm3, despite everything I said the ots maps is so fricken good I keep saying it is almost not worth it to go custom, especially if you only street the car. If you are tracking it hard and need to optimize every parameter and keep temps under control then custom is your best bet. If you have any other tuning solution yeah you got to go custom as the ots maps imo suck or you don't get ots maps at all.