BMW M2 Forum - View Single Post - Pure Electric M Cars are Eventuality Says BMW M CEO, But Hybridization Comes First

Teutonic · 01-19-2017, 07:51 PM

I will provide a short response to some points and not get involved in any kind of arguments with anybody, because this is futile and non-constructive. I will not spend my time trying to go back and fourth.
Most of the info comes from several sources but not older than 2-3 years as some are suggesting. I will also not go around and search for things, the information is out there, please search and do your homework. As I have said with another occasion, it is up to each individual what wants to do with this information. If you decided for yourself, good for you, enjoy your choice and live with it.

Anyway,

- "Your vehicle can not be used on off road or to access remote areas, ex. cabins without electricity" means not that the vehicle will not be drivable an this terrain, it means that your vehicle will be stuck on a such environment where there is no power (cabin without electricity for few weeks). No freedom. BTW, Your generator runs on gas, right? So, are you polluting to charge your technical wonder or not?

In a gas vehicle, the gas is there without generator; you consume the gas to charge your car and the power starts to deplete as soon as you unplug. Also, you are still running gas to charge it and lose one charge on your battery life. How that sounds to you? R-Evolutionary?

- I have 5 gas stations on my way from home to my work place . I NEVER waited to pump gas. I don't know where you live, but here, each gas station has at least 9-12 pumps and I never waited to pump gas. It takes maybe 5 minutes if tank is empty, and I use this time to buy lottery tickets for example. I don't ever remember sitting on a gas station more than 10 minutes (if we use the washroom or buying a coffee) either in Europe or in Canada.

- your vehicle can not be left at the margin of the woods somewhere and started few weeks later if you want or need If you go somewhere for a certain expedition and you are coming back in 2-3 weeks, your vehicle will be dead as you phone is. If this expedition is in a cold climate, please kiss goodbye your "sleep mode" function.

- your vehicle can not run at lower temperatures properly, and the life cycle of your batteries will be greatly diminished by a cold environment. please inform the other fellow too, I am not talking about consuming more of the juice because you need heating. (You guys are funny, still don't know if play the puerile game intentionally) This context was referring to the performance battery in a cold climate, similar with the "crank power " term. regardless what you do or your super extraterrestrial superTesla company will do, the battery performance is greatly reduced at low temperatures and it also affects the life longevity of your battery. A regular vehicle’s battery loses 33% of its power when the temperature dips below 32 degrees F (0 degrees C) and over 50% of its power when the temperature falls below 0 degrees F (-18 degrees C).
Cold temperature causes the performance of all batteries to drop. Bitter cold also makes charging more difficult, especially with Li-ion, as charging is more delicate that discharging. The ability to use a battery at low temperature does not automatically permit charging under these same conditions. Carless charging at low temperatures can inflict permanent damage to the battery. Li-ion should not be charged below zero degree C (32°F). Some battery manufacturers permit charging down to -10°C (14°F) by reducing the charge current to a tenth of the battery rating, a charge that would take 12–15 hours on an empty battery. Charging too fast at low temperatures could lead to dendrite growth, reflecting in higher self-discharge and compromise safety.
Keeping a lower voltage also protects the battery during cold-temperature charging and some BMS limit the voltage and current accordingly. EV owners want ultra-fast charging and technology is available to do so. Although convenient, fast-charging is harmful to the battery. If at all possible, avoid charge times that are less than 90 minutes, or charge rates above 1C. The onboard BMS keeps record of stressful battery events and historic data can work against a warranty claim.
Your range will not be the same in a Canadian winter like the last three weeks with -30 C (almost -30 Fahrenheit), regardless of what you say. I heard from a guy I know of 50% drop to 200 km range in our cold weather.
A gas engine will run, give a similar range and be able to be refueled in maxim 5 minutes, ready to go.

- Regarding the comparison to gasoline internal combustion engine fires - the main difference is that a lithium ion is a dynamic chemical reactor, in contrast to a static fuel tank. Once a lithium ion cell becomes defective, chemical processes can proceed at a slow pace, even in a parked care stored for weeks (for instance dendrite growth) until a safety event occurs. it was a Chevy Volt that passed crash tests, then parked in storage, and several weeks later its battery caught on fire. A battery can undergo internal processes initiated by some stress in the past and trigger a fire or explosion. this also triggers another question mark if in a case of a small collision are you sure you are safe from fire or fumes in the future?

- Freedom means the ability to pick the route you want, independent of any electric grid route. You will not be able to do that in Canada or Alaska, in remote areas. In other words, your vehicle will be good to travel in crowded places, dependent by your grid network. I prefer untouched grounds.

- Nope, your resale value will be affected by the year in top of your mileage. Your charging history, your climate, and the year even if the car was not driven too much (the battery idle is not good either), will dictate your resale value. A whole new game in there.

- If your battery has an issue or needs a warranty replacement, Tesla will provide a repair or a refurbished one in place. How do you feel when you paid that much for that car to receive a refurbished battery? Sounds good to you?

- In the Warranty manual from Tesla is mentioned clearly that "Exposing the vehicle to ambient temperatures above 140°F (60°C) or below -22°F (-30°C) for more than 24 hours at a time" the battery is not covered." There is your answer! https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...rranty_2.1.pdf
Not sure how you feel about it, but I had a Jaguar and BMW sitting due to lack of space at -40 C (or -40 Fahrenheit) outside with no issues, and run the Jaguar 8 years in a row without a garage with 6 months of winter/year. So in other words, your vehicle can not visit some friends because you need their garage. Even if you will be my friend, I will not pull out any of my cars for your sensible Tesla. Sorry.
Now can you see your "freedom"?

- Ok, I am glad you are happy to be part of the flock. Enjoy being a member of a controlled group. Have fun! I don't like people to know what I am doing, nor getting forced updates in my car. I hope you will not getting an update while driving and you need to "restart".

- "regular power" "premium power" was a funny analogy. You depend on power, I depend on gas. I can always put some regular in my tank and still run even if the engine requires premium, and I can always fill my tank and put in my trunk one, two canisters with gas and run thousand of km in plus on any road with peace in mind. You can't.

Do I still need to elaborate that you are paying 30% more than a normal car while you are monitored and have no freedom of choice?

One more thing: EMF is still there...

01-19-2017, 07:51 PM	#151
Teutonic Colonel 2709 Rep 2,350 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Canada iTrader: (0)	I will provide a short response to some points and not get involved in any kind of arguments with anybody, because this is futile and non-constructive. I will not spend my time trying to go back and fourth. Most of the info comes from several sources but not older than 2-3 years as some are suggesting. I will also not go around and search for things, the information is out there, please search and do your homework. As I have said with another occasion, it is up to each individual what wants to do with this information. If you decided for yourself, good for you, enjoy your choice and live with it. Anyway, - "Your vehicle can not be used on off road or to access remote areas, ex. cabins without electricity" means not that the vehicle will not be drivable an this terrain, it means that your vehicle will be stuck on a such environment where there is no power (cabin without electricity for few weeks). No freedom. BTW, Your generator runs on gas, right? So, are you polluting to charge your technical wonder or not? In a gas vehicle, the gas is there without generator; you consume the gas to charge your car and the power starts to deplete as soon as you unplug. Also, you are still running gas to charge it and lose one charge on your battery life. How that sounds to you? R-Evolutionary? - I have 5 gas stations on my way from home to my work place . I NEVER waited to pump gas. I don't know where you live, but here, each gas station has at least 9-12 pumps and I never waited to pump gas. It takes maybe 5 minutes if tank is empty, and I use this time to buy lottery tickets for example. I don't ever remember sitting on a gas station more than 10 minutes (if we use the washroom or buying a coffee) either in Europe or in Canada. - your vehicle can not be left at the margin of the woods somewhere and started few weeks later if you want or need If you go somewhere for a certain expedition and you are coming back in 2-3 weeks, your vehicle will be dead as you phone is. If this expedition is in a cold climate, please kiss goodbye your "sleep mode" function. - your vehicle can not run at lower temperatures properly, and the life cycle of your batteries will be greatly diminished by a cold environment. please inform the other fellow too, I am not talking about consuming more of the juice because you need heating. (You guys are funny, still don't know if play the puerile game intentionally) This context was referring to the performance battery in a cold climate, similar with the "crank power " term. regardless what you do or your super extraterrestrial superTesla company will do, the battery performance is greatly reduced at low temperatures and it also affects the life longevity of your battery. A regular vehicle’s battery loses 33% of its power when the temperature dips below 32 degrees F (0 degrees C) and over 50% of its power when the temperature falls below 0 degrees F (-18 degrees C). Cold temperature causes the performance of all batteries to drop. Bitter cold also makes charging more difficult, especially with Li-ion, as charging is more delicate that discharging. The ability to use a battery at low temperature does not automatically permit charging under these same conditions. Carless charging at low temperatures can inflict permanent damage to the battery. Li-ion should not be charged below zero degree C (32°F). Some battery manufacturers permit charging down to -10°C (14°F) by reducing the charge current to a tenth of the battery rating, a charge that would take 12–15 hours on an empty battery. Charging too fast at low temperatures could lead to dendrite growth, reflecting in higher self-discharge and compromise safety. Keeping a lower voltage also protects the battery during cold-temperature charging and some BMS limit the voltage and current accordingly. EV owners want ultra-fast charging and technology is available to do so. Although convenient, fast-charging is harmful to the battery. If at all possible, avoid charge times that are less than 90 minutes, or charge rates above 1C. The onboard BMS keeps record of stressful battery events and historic data can work against a warranty claim. Your range will not be the same in a Canadian winter like the last three weeks with -30 C (almost -30 Fahrenheit), regardless of what you say. I heard from a guy I know of 50% drop to 200 km range in our cold weather. A gas engine will run, give a similar range and be able to be refueled in maxim 5 minutes, ready to go. - Regarding the comparison to gasoline internal combustion engine fires - the main difference is that a lithium ion is a dynamic chemical reactor, in contrast to a static fuel tank. Once a lithium ion cell becomes defective, chemical processes can proceed at a slow pace, even in a parked care stored for weeks (for instance dendrite growth) until a safety event occurs. it was a Chevy Volt that passed crash tests, then parked in storage, and several weeks later its battery caught on fire. A battery can undergo internal processes initiated by some stress in the past and trigger a fire or explosion. this also triggers another question mark if in a case of a small collision are you sure you are safe from fire or fumes in the future? - Freedom means the ability to pick the route you want, independent of any electric grid route. You will not be able to do that in Canada or Alaska, in remote areas. In other words, your vehicle will be good to travel in crowded places, dependent by your grid network. I prefer untouched grounds. - Nope, your resale value will be affected by the year in top of your mileage. Your charging history, your climate, and the year even if the car was not driven too much (the battery idle is not good either), will dictate your resale value. A whole new game in there. - If your battery has an issue or needs a warranty replacement, Tesla will provide a repair or a refurbished one in place. How do you feel when you paid that much for that car to receive a refurbished battery? Sounds good to you? - In the Warranty manual from Tesla is mentioned clearly that "Exposing the vehicle to ambient temperatures above 140°F (60°C) or below -22°F (-30°C) for more than 24 hours at a time" the battery is not covered." There is your answer! https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...rranty_2.1.pdf Not sure how you feel about it, but I had a Jaguar and BMW sitting due to lack of space at -40 C (or -40 Fahrenheit) outside with no issues, and run the Jaguar 8 years in a row without a garage with 6 months of winter/year. So in other words, your vehicle can not visit some friends because you need their garage. Even if you will be my friend, I will not pull out any of my cars for your sensible Tesla. Sorry. Now can you see your "freedom"? - Ok, I am glad you are happy to be part of the flock. Enjoy being a member of a controlled group. Have fun! I don't like people to know what I am doing, nor getting forced updates in my car. I hope you will not getting an update while driving and you need to "restart". - "regular power" "premium power" was a funny analogy. You depend on power, I depend on gas. I can always put some regular in my tank and still run even if the engine requires premium, and I can always fill my tank and put in my trunk one, two canisters with gas and run thousand of km in plus on any road with peace in mind. You can't. Do I still need to elaborate that you are paying 30% more than a normal car while you are monitored and have no freedom of choice? One more thing: EMF is still there... Last edited by Teutonic; 01-19-2017 at 10:05 PM..
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