[Artemis]

Originally Posted by akkando

This is what attracted me to an M car initially. I didn't know anything about cars. I thought there were normal cars, normal trucks, little cars like a miata, and then expensive sports cars. Then back in 2002 I got in my bosses' e36 m3 coupe for a ride. I was just blown away by it, I was asking him what is this thing? That's when I found out there was a car that looked more or less like a normal car, but was also fast and aggressive, but usable as a regular car, but much more raw and fun. That's when I became interested in sporty cars, M cars specifically.
A regular car seemed like an appliance. A sports car seemed too expensive, too much trouble, and not practical every day.

Once upon a time...

[tke743]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Once upon a time...
[PICTURE]

I remember that ad.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by Vintage

A SOLID plan - you may never go back to BMW.
I have owned 9 BMWs and I am 45 years old. I was going for the M2 CSL too (1st on the list at my dealer) thinking that BMW was finally figuring out how to get M cars back to light "basic," insane handling M cars, especially for the folks like those enthusiasts and "brand ambassadors" on this website. Nope, let's build another M5 variant . . . a hybrid no less. "We at BMW will make more money doing that . . . "
I am now officially out of this game of whomever sells more cars to the world wins. Capitalism is great and I love it as there is no better system IMHO, but stock price and shareholders suck sometimes and those folks are clearly in charge at BMW; a real downer. I know the GTS sales issues had some effect on this decision but when you build a $135,000 M4 to compete with P cars it better be mega and really compete. I love the M4 GTS but the raw performance numbers do not justify the price. I digress.
I almost think that not building the M2 CSL now is BMW's official admission that it can't stack up against what will be its obvious competitor - the new P GT4 coming soon!
Just depressing - I want BMW making serious M cars that rival the P competition. They have truly given up.

Originally Posted by dmboone25

See I’m not sure I agree - I think Porsche is just more committed to performance oriented vehicles. They know that SUV and luxury sedans make then boocoo money...but they use the profits to make badass Caymans, Boxsters, and 911s. And their GT level cars are in classes of their own up to super car performance and cost levels. BMW could do that, but they won’t.
Quantity over quality these days. That’s just how it is.

Originally Posted by oldmanstyle

The Porsche 911 and Cayman are designed as a sports car from the ground up. BMW M models are saddled with the limitations of being a sports car that is derived from a luxury coupe/sedan core.

Originally Posted by champignon

BMW has made a handful of "sports cars" during their history, if that. The M1, M-Coupe (Z3M) would be a couple of such examples. What BMW used to excel at was making "sports sedans/coupes," which were never intended as track cars, per se, but rather as a different class of vehicle with some of the attributes of a sports car and being hugely more practical. This history started with such (underpowered by today's standards) vehicles as the 1500, 1600, 2000, 2002, progressing through the early 3-Series, the Bavaria, etc.
Unfortunately, BMW has basically jettisoned that history in the hopes of expanding their customer base. They have obviously succeeded and are now one of the leading car manufacturers in the world, at least on a volume basis.
The problem isn't that a BMW isn't a Porsche; it never was and never was intended to be. The problem is that a BMW is no longer a BMW, or an "Ultimate Driving Machine" in very many senses of the word.

True words!

Pricing the M4 GTS near that of a GT3 is foolish. No one in their right mind would choose the BMW over the Porsche. Making BMW "track specials" is a flawed idea, because BMW's were always supposed to be sports sedans, not pure sports cars. The main benefit over a 911, or most other sports cars, was always that you could transport 4 passengers, or fold the seats down and haul your skies, or whatever, yet still drive it like a sports car.
Don't get me wrong, my dedicated track toy is a e46 m3, but putting a roll bar/cage in it defeats the purpose of buying a sports SEDAN. Sure there is a safety benefit, and I would rather have a roll cage in my car at the track, but then I can't drive it to and from with the track wheels and all the tools, without the need of a trailer. Nor can I use the car occasionally with the family. Those were always the advantages of a sports sedan, over a pure sports car. So when BMW decided to make GTS versions, it seemed like the logical next move for them, but they forgot that they would always be at a disadvantage against a purpose build sports car. Really the only way they can compete, is to offer it for a lot less money since most advantages of practicality are out the window when you install a roll bar..........a larger trunk is all that remains.
Long story short, the M4 GTS doesn't offer the advantages a regular M4 offers over a standard 911, thus it was doomed to fail and maybe a M2 GTS would be doomed to fail for the same reasons. IMHO, putting roll cages in sports sedans is the real flaw. The e46 M3 CSL never had a roll cage and it was the last successful uber M3.

If BMW wants to compete with the GT3 or GT4, then they should build a real sports car. Porsche is spanking them left and right and their sales are through the roof, yet for decades all we ever hear is that BMW brass canceled plans for a pure sports car.
What I never understood, is that they can build a car for every segment under the sun, except a real sports car. And please spare me the profitability argument. From a marketing point of view it would pay dividends. Just look at the Audi R8 or Mercedes GTS & GTR, seems it worked for their competitors.
Maybe BMW execs haven't realized that HPDE's have become pretty popular in the last 10-20 years, so much so that you would think it warranted them building cars for that segment as well.

Wake up BMW, before all your track junkie customers moved over to Porsche.

[Chako]

Originally Posted by norMcal

True words!

Pricing the M4 GTS near that of a GT3 is foolish. No one in their right mind would choose the BMW over the Porsche. Making BMW "track specials" is a flawed idea, because BMW's were always supposed to be sports sedans, not pure sports cars. The main benefit over a 911, or most other sports cars, was always that you could transport 4 passengers, or fold the seats down and haul your skies, or whatever, yet still drive it like a sports car.
Don't get me wrong, my dedicated track toy is a e46 m3, but putting a roll bar/cage in it defeats the purpose of buying a sports SEDAN. Sure there is a safety benefit, and I would rather have a roll cage in my car at the track, but then I can't drive it to and from with the track wheels and all the tools, without the need of a trailer. Nor can I use the car occasionally with the family. Those were always the advantages of a sports sedan, over a pure sports car. So when BMW decided to make GTS versions, it seemed like the logical next move for them, but they forgot that they would always be at a disadvantage against a purpose build sports car. Really the only way they can compete, is to offer it for a lot less money since most advantages of practicality are out the window when you install a roll bar..........a larger trunk is all that remains.
Long story short, the M4 GTS doesn't offer the advantages a regular M4 offers over a standard 911, thus it was doomed to fail and maybe a M2 GTS would be doomed to fail for the same reasons. IMHO, putting roll cages in sports sedans is the real flaw. The e46 M3 CSL never had a roll cage and it was the last successful uber M3.

If BMW wants to compete with the GT3 or GT4, then they should build a real sports car. Porsche is spanking them left and right and their sales are through the roof, yet for decades all we ever hear is that BMW brass canceled plans for a pure sports car.
What I never understood, is that they can build a car for every segment under the sun, except a real sports car. And please spare me the profitability argument. From a marketing point of view it would pay dividends. Just look at the Audi R8 or Mercedes GTS & GTR, seems it worked for their competitors.
Maybe BMW execs haven't realized that HPDE's have become pretty popular in the last 10-20 years, so much so that you would think it warranted them building cars for that segment as well.

Wake up BMW, before all your track junkie customers moved over to Porsche.

The interesting thing is Chevrolet is doing exactly what you're describing with the Camaro ZL1 1LE, so it can be done. Despite being heavy, and offering 4 seats (albeit small back seats), the ZL1 1LE performance is extremely close to the GT3's evidenced by its 7:16 Nurburgring lap time. And not only that, it has a manual transmission and basically everyone who drives it raves about how fun it is. Chevy also knows to make their MSRP reflect the fact that it is less premium in feel and brand prestige to a manufacturer like Porsche.

I feel that BMW has the capability to make a car like that with a more premium feel and lighter weight. Who thought BMW M should one day look up to the Camaro in terms of sports coupe track performance? I'm personally hoping these upcoming M2 variants have some ZL1 1LE-light personality traits with the increased braking and power (not as much as the monster S/C 6.2 obviously), but also lighter weight and more premium.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by Chako

The interesting thing is Chevrolet is doing exactly what you're describing with the Camaro ZL1 1LE, so it can be done. Despite being heavy, and offering 4 seats (albeit small back seats), the ZL1 1LE performance is extremely close to the GT3's evidenced by its 7:16 Nurburgring lap time. And not only that, it has a manual transmission and basically everyone who drives it raves about how fun it is. Chevy also knows to make their MSRP reflect the fact that it is less premium in feel and brand prestige to a manufacturer like Porsche.

I feel that BMW has the capability to make a car like that with a more premium feel and lighter weight. Who thought BMW M should one day look up to the Camaro in terms of sports coupe track performance? I'm personally hoping these upcoming M2 variants have some ZL1 1LE-light personality traits with the increased braking and power (not as much as the monster S/C 6.2 obviously), but also lighter weight and more premium.

Good point, but two important differences. The Camaro is hardly a sedan. The back seats are virtually unusable to begin with. And at ~$70k it is half the price of a GT3, whereas the M4 GTS is about 80%-90% there in terms of cost.

To clarify, I am all for BMW making uber M cars, but they should not forget what they are.....sports sedans! If they want to compete with purpose build sports cars, then they should build one.

For Pete's sake, they were in F1, surely they can build a sports car.

[tke743]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Good point, but two important differences. The Camaro is hardly a sedan. The back seats are virtually unusable to begin with. And at ~$70k it is half the price of a GT3, whereas the M4 GTS is about 80%-90% there in terms of cost.

To clarify, I am all for BMW making uber M cars, but they should not forget what they are.....sports sedans! If they want to compete with purpose build sports cars, then they should build one.

For Pete's sake, they were in F1, surely they can build a sports car.

I'll take my M2 GranCoupe in blue, or better yet Dayton Violet, please.

[Karmic Man]

During the E36 era they only have the Z series, 3 series, the 5 series, the 7 series ad the 8 series.

Today? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,i,Z,X

In terms of (% on revenue) resource allocation how much money can people realistically expect them to allocate to specialise models like the M4GTS?

It is not that you cannot engineer a super handling sports sedan with 4 seats (Porsche has done it with the Panamera, Chevy has done it with the Camaro, Ford has done it with the GT350). It is really to do with how much resource you want to allocate to achieve this objective.

The issue they are facing now is spread oneself too thin. They are not the same company as they were 25 years ago. There is too much at stake for them to shift more resource away from the mainstream stuff and into the niche stuff like GTS/CSL.

I am hoping that the M2CS will have a 6 speed manual box though. Yes, my hope is still high on this one. I have said it in the past that it will be a big surprise (for me at least) to see a M2 CSL to eventualise out of this current climate.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

During the E36 era they only have the Z series, 3 series, the 5 series, the 7 series ad the 8 series.
Today? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,i,Z,X

The M3 has always been labeled as the core car of BMW M (biggest BMW M seller), not particularly as "the entry level BMW M car". However, as a matter of fact, in the BMW M hierarchy it used to be the entry level BMW M car before the 1M and M2 days.

Though the E46 M3 and F87 M2 are both inevitably children of their time, price-wise and size-wise they are quite akin.

It's rumored in this thread that the M2 CS is already finalized "for a very long time" and that an M2 CSL was still under development until late 2017 (see here). If BMW M boss Frank Van Meel pulled the plug on the M2 CSL project as suggested in this thread (see here) or if BMW management imposed any such decision, then let us hope that M2 CSL resources and development progress are fully used to make the 2019 M2 variant (M2 CS) the highest desirable 4-seater anno 2019/2020. Unlike the M4 GTS, back to the days when 'compact' (sub 4.5 meter) was still key to achieve the best driving dynamics. Size matters.

Also given its size, the F87 platform was IMHO a golden opportunity for BMW to develop a car that car enthusiasts would lust for and further promote the BMW M brand image: the M2 CSL as halo car. Unfortunately, for now, it looks like it ain't gonna happen.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Gatte

What is odd is why they would still be working on the competition in Garching when pre production cars are being produced in Leipzig already. For example, no work was done on the M3 CS for months before it was unveiled.
The last M2 prototypes before this were produced in September and carried plates 1404 and 1405 I think. Why would BMW start booking parts out of inventory now. It is not even just a few random parts. Some of the things that were picked up were left and right air intakes, holders of some sort, air circulation coolers, sealing walls, oil pump wheel, oil pump control unit etc. etc. It's like they are building almost a new car and not just tweaking something. I was also told that all these parts were not available throughout 2016 which is when we first started hearing about the CS. Some of the parts have only existed since November of 2016 (After the initial spy videos of M2 variant surfaced). Some of the parts like Bumper contribution left, right, Reduction.Bumpers front (ZB VERKL. STOSSF. VORN M2 CS) sound like things you would not have on a base M2 replacement. Also, US dealerships were officially told about the 1000 production M2 version. Taking all this into consideration, I am making an assumption that the M2 CS is still on. I have no confirmation on it.... Yet.

Latest USA spec M2 Competition cars scheduled for forthcoming production at the Leipzig factory (see here):

• WBS2U7C50KVB08889 = M-DCT (HS) (Canadian version - PR car because features option 901 "Special Check Movie Cars")
• WBS2U7C57KVB08890 = 6MT (HS+orange)
• WBS2U7C59KVB08891 = M-DCT (AW)

But those are still labeled "M2 Competition", so to be distinguished from the 2019 M2 sibling (likely named "M2 CS").

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Once upon a time...
[PICTURE]

Again: once upon a time...

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Also given its size, the F87 platform was IMHO a golden opportunity for BMW to develop a car that car enthusiasts would lust for and further promote the BMW M brand image: the M2 CSL as halo car. Unfortunately, for now, it looks like it ain't gonna happen.

Yep. The M2's engineers must have been pretty frustrated with their orders to essentially make the M4 suspension fit and leave the rest alone.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Again: once upon a time...

Attachment 1738950

I had one of those; a 1973 2002 in puke yellow, bought new. It was my first car. I was supposed to get an orange one, but at delivery the salesman made up some bullshit story about the orange one having its paint damaged in transit by "potash." Obviously, they sold it to someone else, and since they knew I needed to drive the car 2300 miles to the West Coast (from DC) immediately, they had me by the balls.

It was a great car, for its time. It also started to rust out at 6 years of age, and the body shop that worked on it told me to unload it within 2 years, because after that, it was going to disintegrate, rapidly, into a pile of rust.

During the mideast war/gas crisis of the late '70s, I had an extra gas tank installed in the trunk to increase gas capacity for those "odd-even day" gas station restrictions. In retrospect, I think I created a latter day Ford Pinto, and hope that whomever ended up with that car later did not get immolated in a rear-end crash

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by champignon

I had one of those; a 1973 2002 in puke yellow, bought new.

BMW used "Golf Yellow" (BMW paint code 070) for the BMW 3.0 CSL a few decades ago, with an encore in 2015 for the BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Artemis

BMW used "Golf Yellow" (BMW paint code 070) for the BMW 3.0 CSL a few decades ago, with an encore in 2015 for the BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage.

Really disagreeable color. I spent 8 years looking at that color daily!

There is a famous Porsche 2nd hand dealer in the UK who has written a treatise on how to buy a used Porsche. In there they explicitly state that they refuse to buy and market used Porsches in "unpopular" colors.

Which reminds me of the new home development where the "business house" my business partner and i own jointly is located. The houses are very nice, well located, and have relatively large lots. They sell once the framing lumber starts going up, a couple of months before they are completed. One exception has been a couple of houses that were painted undesirable colors and in some cases had bizarre interior decorating themes. One of them was bright green in color, and had not sold for several months after completion. I wrote the listing real estate agent that they really needed to repaint that house if they wanted to sell it. I never got a response to my email, but a few days later the painters showed up, masked off the trim and the windows, and painted the house light grey. It sold the next day.

[JLS_397K]

I know this thread died out a little but is it possible with the advent of these multiple aftermarket companies, a CSL wouldn't be cost worthy as opposed to a M2 CS... and let consumers make their car.

Remember Carbon Fiber and composites were only for the rich and very few companies provided it back then... No you are literally a click away from carbon fiber rolls and what not. Look at how RKP designed a carbon fiber room to mimic M3 M4 for the M2.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by JLS_397K

I know this thread died out a little but is it possible with the advent of these multiple aftermarket companies, a CSL wouldn't be cost worthy as opposed to a M2 CS... and let consumers make their car.

Remember Carbon Fiber and composites were only for the rich and very few companies provided it back then... No you are literally a click away from carbon fiber rolls and what not. Look at how RKP designed a carbon fiber room to mimic M3 M4 for the M2.

Yup seems CSL home brew is the current only route.

[AvalonM2]

Originally Posted by kiysersosae

That's why I recently dumped the M2 DCT and went for Cayman GT4 its more expensive, and not as practical but it's a car that is so connected with you it's hard to explain. BMW really need to pull their socks up

I enjoy my M2, but it will be sold as soon as my GT4 build goes forward. True GT 4.0 n/a (probably detuned to 430hp) and 6spd! Long term keeper right there.

[Bt12]

Originally Posted by AvalonM2

I enjoy my M2, but it will be sold as soon as my GT4 build goes forward. True GT 4.0 n/a (probably detuned to 430hp) and 6spd! Long term keeper right there.

I enjoy my M2 as well. I probably will ship this out west when I buy my GT4...or Ferrari lol.

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Latest USA spec M2 Competition cars scheduled for forthcoming production at the Leipzig factory (see here):

• WBS2U7C50KVB08889 = M-DCT (HS) (Canadian version - PR car because features option 901 "Special Check Movie Cars")
• WBS2U7C57KVB08890 = 6MT (HS+orange)
• WBS2U7C59KVB08891 = M-DCT (AW)

But those are still labeled "M2 Competition", so to be distinguished from the 2019 M2 sibling (likely named "M2 CS").

All 3 of these have been produced now. They're probably sitting around in a garage somewhere.

The M2 sibling IF permitted to be conceived the right way could turn out to be a big bully.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Gatte

All 3 of these have been produced now. They're probably sitting around in a garage somewhere.

The first one was built yesterday, the second one today, the third one not yet.

But all test mules got the "M2 Cs" name now: see here.

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The first one was built yesterday, the second one today, the third one not yet.

But all test mules got the "M2 Cs" name now: see here.

I have seen the Orange and HS. I assumed that the other was the third of the lot since they were all recent builds.

The name was definitely Competition. Not sure why the test mules have all been renamed CS. I guess they still have a few more months to screw with us.

Very confusing.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Gatte

I have seen the Orange and HS. I assumed that the other was the third of the lot since they were all recent builds.

The name was definitely Competition. Also, the front grille does not have CS like it did with the M3 CS. Not sure why the test mules have all been renamed CS. I guess they still have a few more months to screw with us.

Very confusing.

. Well looks like there is plenty of time for the system to update to B5830T0 from S55.