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      11-30-2017, 11:43 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
I mean it is and isn't. Here's the thing. Are you sure you like the S55? it's not for everyone. I thought for sure I'd walk out of the dealership with an M3 but the S55 is not a motor I find appealing. While the N55 is less special there is definitely some M magic going on there such that I get feelings of older M cars when driving it.

So then you're down to interiors. For me I cannot stand how the f3x and X SUVs have that stupid high gloss material everywhere that scratches if you look at it too hard. I'm not sure why this equates to a better interior. More shiny stuff ?

The seats look a hell of a lot cooler but feel pretty much the same to me. Better off going with a sportster CS or other aftermarket seat.
A lot of what passes for a "luxurious" interior isn't really in keeping with a small car that is supposed to be a performance vehicle.

A long time ago, when BMW didn't consider itself to be a luxury brand, their interiors were quite spartan and full of plastic. Even some older Porsche interiors are more reminiscent of a VW than a luxury car. But at this point, just about any BMW interior with leather seating is as luxurious as anyone could "need" in a purported-to-be performance car.

When I sold my 1993 325i, I went through a succession of Japanese cars, mostly Suburus, with a VW thrown in for interest :-) The last Subaru was a 2015 STi, which for Subaru is pretty luxurious. I remember when I got my used 1M, two and a half years ago, when I cleaned it up and started driving it, I thought, WOW, this car is REALLY luxurious and comfortable, I can barely stand to get back into my STi any more. The 1M is (barely) more luxurious than, say, my other two, 1-Series cars, both of which have leather interiors. All of these cars are so far above the cars I drove for the preceding 13 years that it wasn't even questionable.

Since then I've been given quite a few loaners by the BMW dealer, mostly in the 3 and 5 series, and mostly more luxurious than my 1-Series vehicles, but there is a certain fake-feeling to those interiors, like they are trying to be something they can't be, say, for example, like a new Porsche.

My bottom line summation would be that there is a point where the additional "luxury" factor doesn't add much, if anything, to the driving experience, for someone who is primarily interested in a car for its performance.

This is not to say that a lot of the "performance cars" out there, such as the new genre of "Hot Hatches" aren't cheap as hell, inside and out; they are. So you can be too much like a kids/boy racer car, but I don't think that the M2 is at all like that.
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      11-30-2017, 03:51 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Stop calling it a CS. It is giving a false impression of the car that is coming.

Look at the Vin’s. The Competition is the same M2 available now, but with a detuned S55. Yes there are new wheels, seats, brakes, perforated leather, etc...but everything is an option.

Essentially you can spec the car just like it is now, down to the standard 437M wheels and cheaper Dakota leather. So if you want a M2 like the ones currently sitting on AutoTrader, but with a detuned S55...it will be available. BMW will just be giving customers new options and it is up to the customer on whether they value them. At most the msrp will go up $5k. The M2 will remain the entry level M car, the new Competiton still has cost cutting like the N55 M2.
Does your $5K include the MY hike as well as the engine premium? If so, looks really skinny. If not, add another $2K (and I personally thing $5K for the S55 upgrade is still skinny). Is it really just an engine swap and additional options available? NOTHING else to be changed from the LCI?

On the flip side, if the base M2 Comp leaves more (of what was included in the base M2) to options, then I agree that will give the opportunity to shrink the differential. Apologies if that is in the options listing I have seen posted but did not look up for this response.

Not sure what your base M2 was like in the U.S. In Canada, it was loaded with only options being DCT, metallic paint and the Carplay/wireless charging option. So there would be lots of room to mitigate the hike here if the M2 Comp is a la carte. But the true price bump would be apples to apples, not the cheapest of each you can buy.
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      11-30-2017, 04:10 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er View Post
Does your $5K include the MY hike as well as the engine premium? If so, looks really skinny. If not, add another $2K (and I personally thing $5K for the S55 upgrade is still skinny). Is it really just an engine swap and additional options available? NOTHING else to be changed from the LCI?

On the flip side, if the base M2 Comp leaves more (of what was included in the base M2) to options, then I agree that will give the opportunity to shrink the differential. Apologies if that is in the options listing I have seen posted but did not look up for this response.

Not sure what your base M2 was like in the U.S. In Canada, it was loaded with only options being DCT, metallic paint and the Carplay/wireless charging option. So there would be lots of room to mitigate the hike here if the M2 Comp is a la carte. But the true price bump would be apples to apples, not the cheapest of each you can buy.
In the US, a lot of what you guys got standard was put into our Exec package.
For 16-17, that included:
auto high-beams
emergency braking camera
lane departure "wife's best friend" steering wheel
backup camera
rear parking sensors

The normal car came without those options, adding Exec put them in.

For 18 it's similar, except now backup camera is standard, and L/R turning headlights (full LED, with new hex-style halos) replace the camera.

There may be a few other minor things I've forgotten too, but those are the major points.

Plus, Canadian cars all come with the 40-20-40 rear seat that we can't get at all.
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      11-30-2017, 04:18 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
A lot of what passes for a "luxurious" interior isn't really in keeping with a small car that is supposed to be a performance vehicle.

A long time ago, when BMW didn't consider itself to be a luxury brand, their interiors were quite spartan and full of plastic. Even some older Porsche interiors are more reminiscent of a VW than a luxury car. But at this point, just about any BMW interior with leather seating is as luxurious as anyone could "need" in a purported-to-be performance car.

When I sold my 1993 325i, I went through a succession of Japanese cars, mostly Suburus, with a VW thrown in for interest :-) The last Subaru was a 2015 STi, which for Subaru is pretty luxurious. I remember when I got my used 1M, two and a half years ago, when I cleaned it up and started driving it, I thought, WOW, this car is REALLY luxurious and comfortable, I can barely stand to get back into my STi any more. The 1M is (barely) more luxurious than, say, my other two, 1-Series cars, both of which have leather interiors. All of these cars are so far above the cars I drove for the preceding 13 years that it wasn't even questionable.

Since then I've been given quite a few loaners by the BMW dealer, mostly in the 3 and 5 series, and mostly more luxurious than my 1-Series vehicles, but there is a certain fake-feeling to those interiors, like they are trying to be something they can't be, say, for example, like a new Porsche.

My bottom line summation would be that there is a point where the additional "luxury" factor doesn't add much, if anything, to the driving experience, for someone who is primarily interested in a car for its performance.

This is not to say that a lot of the "performance cars" out there, such as the new genre of "Hot Hatches" aren't cheap as hell, inside and out; they are. So you can be too much like a kids/boy racer car, but I don't think that the M2 is at all like that.
LED tail lights and M mirrors don't add to the driving experience but that doesn't stop people from crying about it.
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      11-30-2017, 04:19 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
I would give a shit about it, however I think you need to keep it in the context of your financial situation. It's like staying in a horrible motel to avoid paying $120/night at a Hampton Inn or similar hotel. At some point, if you attain any degree of financial success, the cost becomes trivial and the expense is worth it.
I think that's an extreme analogy, but whatever. No baller over here (otherwise I'd be getting a 911 GT3 to go with it ) but certainly on solid enough ground at 42 that this car was not a stretch.
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      11-30-2017, 04:56 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
The hell.. is the S55 really worth that much to you? Let's conservatively say the competition will be only $8K over the base (I actually suspect higher). Dealer markups could be $5K right off the bat. So right away before you've even got behind the wheel, after your $4500 discount, the price difference between the competition and the model you can drive *right now* is $17,500 nevermind financing incentives.

That just seems bonkers to me plus you've got a years' wait ahead of you. Why bother?
Because he ain't getting a 2018 $4500 off sticker!
Such crap in this forum sometimes.
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      11-30-2017, 06:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er View Post
Does your $5K include the MY hike as well as the engine premium? If so, looks really skinny. If not, add another $2K (and I personally thing $5K for the S55 upgrade is still skinny). Is it really just an engine swap and additional options available? NOTHING else to be changed from the LCI?
I estimate msrp around $60k, just under most likely(something like $59,500). I don’t see a detuned S55 bringing much more of a premium. Being able to add a couple options and still be under M4 msrp.
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      11-30-2017, 06:26 PM   #74
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Someone should just do a public poll thread on the forum,where people can post what they think the base price of the M2 Competition is going to be.Then once the official price is announced,people will be able to see exactly how accurate your price estimate was.
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      11-30-2017, 06:32 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryem3 View Post
Because he ain't getting a 2018 $4500 off sticker!
Such crap in this forum sometimes.
Your right. I got offered $3500. Oh wait, your implying I made all this up. Yep, your right about that too, disregard the $3500 comment and go pay above msrp.
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      11-30-2017, 06:45 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by JPizzz View Post
Your right. I got offered $3500. Oh wait, your implying I made all this up. Yep, your right about that too, disregard the $3500 comment and go pay above msrp.
The clinical term for the comment might be either "confirmation bias," or perhaps a variant of "cognitive dissonance."

p.s. a pet peeve of mine:

"your" = the possessive form of "you," as in something that belongs to you;
"you're" = the contraction of "you" and "are," as in "you're joking, aren't you?"

Next lesson: "There," "their," and "they're"

:-)
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      11-30-2017, 08:47 PM   #77
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Yep. And then we'll start a lesson on the difference between "offered" and "paid".
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      12-01-2017, 08:35 AM   #78
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Since the discussion went a bit off topic already, let me ask this. What is the big deal with the S55 engine over the N55? Sorry for my ignorance, I really have not paid all that much attention the last few years. I used to know everything there is to know about a M3, but since these cars have become so big, I really lost interest.

Just a quick background. I grew up riding in my dad's Bimmers, from 2002' up to e30's. I later continued the tradition owning e30's all the way to e90's (several M3's), but since have gone back to an e46 M3, just because the new models have gotten too big for me. With the introduction of the M2 I am, for the first time in years, interested again in a new BMW.

That being said, in the past, M engines clearly stood apart from non M with the individual throttle bodies and where always better "breathing" and higher reeving and true race bred engines. So what is the big deal about the S55, other than the obvious hp jump? Is it lighter, or does it have much better throttle response? Because on paper, they are both turbo engines and we all know getting more hp from a turbo is just a matter of tuning and adding some boost. I mean, can't the N55 easily be tuned to M4 type numbers? Yes, I understand the S55 could probably be tuned as well, but realistically, how much hp do I need? I'm really not interested in drag racing and on the track you can only get so much hp to the ground anyway. Doesn't the M4 suffer from having almost too much hp and thus has a tendency to spin out?

Looking back at history and the Z3 M for example. Clearly the ones with the S54 engine are much more desirable, so in terms of resale there is a big incentive going for the later model years. Then again, that was going from the POS S52 to the glorious S54. arguably a bigger difference, or is the difference from the N55 to S55 comparable to that?

Last edited by norMcal; 12-01-2017 at 10:09 AM..
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      12-01-2017, 09:09 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
The hell.. is the S55 really worth that much to you? Let's conservatively say the competition will be only $8K over the base (I actually suspect higher). Dealer markups could be $5K right off the bat. So right away before you've even got behind the wheel, after your $4500 discount, the price difference between the competition and the model you can drive *right now* is $17,500 nevermind financing incentives.

That just seems bonkers to me plus you've got a years' wait ahead of you. Why bother?
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
This is actually not correct.

The more affordable M cars hold their value well. M3 of all generations , Z3M, Z4 M, 1M , and thus far M2. Has the bottom fallen out of E9x M3 pricing ? I haven't looked in a while but they held steady for quite awhile in the $35-40 K range with original msrp of 65-70k.

the more expensive models....5,6,7 and X SAV models of course have tons of depreciation.

BMW Convertibles, particularly M car convertibles start off around 6-8k higher than the hardtops and depreciate quickly to values around 2k below the hardtop models.

With the E36 M3 and E46 M3, add an automatic box and it would lose another 1-2k in value. I haven't really looked at at E9X M verts plus the metal roof is a different animal.

BMW convertibles however make excellent purchases as 7-10 year old vehicles when lightly used - ask me how I know! - I've had three different E46 convertibles (including an M) in my garage over the years.
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Originally Posted by champignon View Post
I think you have to define what you mean by M-Cars holding "their value well."

Even my 2000 Z3M coupe, in outstanding condition, with around 60K miles (not a lot for an 18 year old car) had an original MSRP of $42,870 when it was sold in late 1999. A very optimistic estimate of what it might sell for today would be $30K, probably more like $27K. And I've put several thousand into it over the last 2.5 years, during which it has accumulated maybe 2500 miles.

According to Dr. Google, a 1999 US Dollar is worth around $1.47 today. So, in 2017 dollars the car cost $63K, and is now worth well less than 50% of that. And this is for one of the "poster children" for rare BMW M cars, in that around 3000 were sold in N. America, and certainly many less remain in "collectible condition" after 18 years.

Further, most of the depreciation of an M-Car, or any BMW, is going to happen quickly. No one in their right mind wants someone else's used car, even if only a couple of years old, when they can buy a brand new one for about the same price.

I don't mind buying someone else's used car, but I want a deal on it, otherwise I would just buy new, and so would most other people. The only way that this would not be a factor would be if you couldn't find a new one to buy. But the evidence strongly points to the idea that this is not going to be a huge factor going forward, especially for the current N55 version.
I don't think there is a clear formula on the M cars holding their value. All of you make valid points, but it all depends on production numbers and age of the cars. E30 M3 is the iconic one but was also pretty limited in production with only about 18k made and only about 5k coming to the US. 1M was clearly very limited with only 800 coming to the US, thus both those models are almost considered investments.

US e36 M3 is only worth something if it is very low miles or maybe the LTW model. Euro Spec would be a different story due to having the real M engine.

E46 M3's have already bottomed a few years ago and have started to appreciate again, even though they are only 11-16 years old. I bought one 2 years ago with low miles for ~$26k and there are many going for well over $30k. Even high miles ones are still demanding $15-$20k if they are clean and well maintained. That is pretty astounding for a car that on average is 13 years old and cost ~$53k new.

E9x's are the smart buy right now IMHO. From what I've seen there are very nice examples to be had for mid $30k. I suspect that they will bottom out in the high mid $20's and the clean ones with lower miles will start appreciating to over $40k again, or never drop below at all. If the E9x wasn't as porky, I would probably "upgrade" from my e46 M3 now, but I don't want to give up the weight advantage. Besides, I like the looks much better on the e46.

So here is my struggle and to get back on topic of the M2 market. I was expecting the M2 to get in to the mid $40's by now (after 2 years) and at that point I could really justify making the switch to a newer M car again. But as they were holding at MSRP, it just didn't make sense, when I can buy a very nice E9X M3 for A LOT less.
As I stated before, I can't justify having my 2nd car (or 3rd if I count my wife's) depreciate a lot while mostly sitting idle, thus I have been picking up M cars that are 1 or 2 models behind. In some ways they are just as much fun, and on top of that they retain their value.

If the M2 were to catch up on the depreciation it never went through, then I could justify making the move. I would rather have an M2 than an E9X M3, but not if it cost me $20k of depreciation over a few years. In hind sight I could have owned one the last two years and done just that, but I honestly didn't have another $30k to put towards one the last few years, and financing isn't really my preferred choice.
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      12-01-2017, 10:09 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
I don't think there is a clear formula on the M cars holding their value. All of you make valid points, but it all depends on production numbers and age of the cars. E30 M3 is the iconic one but was also pretty limited in production with only about 18k made and only about 5k coming to the US. 1M was clearly very limited with only 800 coming to the US, thus both those models are almost considered investments.

US e36 M3 is only worth something if it is very low miles or maybe the LTW model. Euro Spec would be a different story due to having the real M engine.

E46 M3's have already bottomed a few years ago and have started to appreciate again, even though they are only 11-16 years old. I bought one 2 years ago with low miles for ~$26k and there are many going for well over $30k. Even high miles ones are still demanding $15-$20k if they are clean and well maintained. That is pretty astounding for a car that on average is 13 years old and cost ~$53k new.

E9x's are the smart buy right now IMHO. From what I've seen there are very nice examples to be had for mid $30k. I suspect that they will bottom out in the high mid $20's and the clean ones with lower miles will start appreciating to over $40k again, or never drop below at all. If the E9x wasn't as porky, I would probably "upgrade" from my e46 M3 now, but I don't want to give up the weight advantage. Besides, I like the looks much better on the e46.

So here is my struggle and to get back on topic of the M2 market. I was expecting the M2 to get in to the mid $40's by now (after 2 years) and at that point I could really justify making the switch to a newer M car again. But as they were holding at MSRP, it just didn't make sense, when I can buy a very nice E9X M3 for A LOT less.
As I stated before, I can't justify having my 2nd car (or 3rd if I count my wife's) depreciate a lot while mostly sitting idle, thus I have been picking up M cars that are 1 or 2 models behind. In some ways they are just as much fun, and on top of that they retain their value.

If the M2 were to catch up on the depreciation it never went through, then I could justify making the move. I would rather have an M2 than an E9X M3, but not if it cost me $20k of depreciation over a few years. In hind sight I could have owned one the last two years and done just that, but I honestly didn't have another $30k to put towards one the last few years, and financing isn't really my preferred choice.
As stated in this thread and I believe in some others, people are waiting for the other shoe to drop on used M2 values, and it appears that this is going to happen within the next 6 months, for at least 2 reasons; release of S55 engine in the car, and supply now meeting or exceeding demand.

Right now would be a bad time to buy a used M2, unless the price reflected that. You might be able to get a halfway decent deal on a new one, depending on the dealer involved. The smartest move financially appears to be to wait.
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      12-01-2017, 10:19 AM   #81
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The mere statement that so many people are waiting for prices to drop is exactly why they don't. Unless you have an excess flipper situation as with the the gt3rs, it will continue. Exactly like the 991.1 gt3, so many people want to buy one, supply is limited, it supports the prices.
Waiting won't ameliorate the situation. Unless BMW suddenly builds more cars. No sign of that happening. Go buy an e92, one of the crapiest of the small m cars for many reasons. You wonder why they're cheap? I don't.
I'm so amused by all the posts lamenting the high secondary prices. The market has spoken. There is a reason.
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      12-01-2017, 10:21 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
As stated in this thread and I believe in some others, people are waiting for the other shoe to drop on used M2 values, and it appears that this is going to happen within the next 6 months, for at least 2 reasons; release of S55 engine in the car, and supply now meeting or exceeding demand.

Right now would be a bad time to buy a used M2, unless the price reflected that. You might be able to get a halfway decent deal on a new one, depending on the dealer involved. The smartest move financially appears to be to wait.
Yes, it sounds like it is, even though I feel that most won't be able to get their hands on one of those anyway, it will most likely still burst the bubble a bit on the high resale values.
BTW, did you see my previous post regarding the S55? I'm genuinely curious about the difference to the N55 and why it would be such a big deal.

FWIW, I just got a notification a used M2 I am watching. Seller dropped his asking price by $2k and is now at $49.9k. Granted this one has 9k miles. Still think it's too much money, but its further proof of the market conditions.
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      12-01-2017, 10:31 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by ryem3 View Post
The mere statement that so many people are waiting for prices to drop is exactly why they don't. Unless you have an excess flipper situation as with the the gt3rs, it will continue. Exactly like the 991.1 gt3, so many people want to buy one, supply is limited, it supports the prices.
Waiting won't ameliorate the situation. Unless BMW suddenly builds more cars. No sign of that happening. Go buy an e92, one of the crapiest of the small m cars for many reasons. You wonder why they're cheap? I don't.
I'm so amused by all the posts lamenting the high secondary prices. The market has spoken. There is a reason.
If you can buy a new one right now for the same price as a used one, the market will adjust, and from the tone of your post, you for one will not like that :-)

The M2 is a good car, but no way in hell would I buy a used one for the prices being asked now. Rational choices at present appear to be:

(1) Get a deal on a new one, and they appear to be out there, finally;
(2) Wait for prices to drop on used ones;
(3) Wait and see and don't buy unless there is a reason to.

I'm with 3 and in a holding pattern. It's a good car, but it is not that special that I would lose 2 minute's worth of sleep over.
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      12-01-2017, 10:32 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ryem3 View Post
The mere statement that so many people are waiting for prices to drop is exactly why they don't. Unless you have an excess flipper situation as with the the gt3rs, it will continue. Exactly like the 991.1 gt3, so many people want to buy one, supply is limited, it supports the prices.
Waiting won't ameliorate the situation. Unless BMW suddenly builds more cars. No sign of that happening. Go buy an e92, one of the crappiest of the small m cars for many reasons. You wonder why they're cheap? I don't.
I'm so amused by all the posts lamenting the high secondary prices. The market has spoken. There is a reason.
I don't agree completely. It always boils down to supply and demand and the GT3 has certainly been a prime example of that. However, there are now A LOT of them on the used market and just because the asking prices are high, does not mean the selling prices are also. Look how long some of them have been on the market. I bet many of them are just feeling out the market. If you own a GT3, then that is most likely your 3rd or 4th car and you can afford to buy a new one. So why not list yours and see if it sells for a ridiculous amount. I doubt that many sell for that much. Who in their right mind would pay $135k for a used one, when you can buy a new one for $145k?

Yes, they have been phenomenal regarding their value retention, but they will go through the exact same thing the M2 is starting to go through, especially since the 991.2 can now be had with MT.
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      12-01-2017, 10:41 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
Yes, it sounds like it is, even though I feel that most won't be able to get their hands on one of those anyway, it will most likely still burst the bubble a bit on the high resale values.
BTW, did you see my previous post regarding the S55? I'm genuinely curious about the difference to the N55 and why it would be such a big deal.

FWIW, I just got a notification a used M2 I am watching. Seller dropped his asking price by $2k and is now at $49.9k. Granted this one has 9k miles. Still think it's too much money, but its further proof of the market conditions.
I'm no expert on engines and can't speak to the differences of the S55 vs. N55. The N55 is a great engine and I have 2 cars with this engine and am quite happy with it. People will always say that it is not a "real M" engine, something they say about the tuned N54 in the 1M, however this has not effected resale :-)

The current M2 has more than enough power, unlike the S52 Z3M Coupe, one of which happens to be in my "stable." It is true that the S54-engined Z3M Coupes sell for a lot more than the earlier, 1999-2000 models, such as mine. On the other hand, the Z3M Coupe is a really "goofy" kind of a car whose appeal, in my opinion, is way more than the fact that it's a powerful sports car. When I drive that car I find that it has plenty of power for what it is, and I don't regret having dropped $22K on mine (~3 years ago), vs. having spent way more for an S54 version. In addition, the rear subframe of these cars was not designed for a powerful engine like the S54, and as a result, there is a high rate of rear-subframe failure in these cars, which invites a multi-thousand-dollar repair if not already done on a given car.

My guess is that neither version of the current M2 is going to be very valuable as a collector's car, regardless of engine, within the next 10-20 years, and you should just buy whichever one you prefer for whatever reason, or like me, wait and see what happens to the pricing and either buy or don't buy later. It's just a car.
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      12-01-2017, 10:44 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
Yes, it sounds like it is, even though I feel that most won't be able to get their hands on one of those anyway, it will most likely still burst the bubble a bit on the high resale values.
BTW, did you see my previous post regarding the S55? I'm genuinely curious about the difference to the N55 and why it would be such a big deal.

FWIW, I just got a notification a used M2 I am watching. Seller dropped his asking price by $2k and is now at $49.9k. Granted this one has 9k miles. Still think it's too much money, but its further proof of the market conditions.
Prices might not plummet (unless BMW decides to become a charity organization and offer the M2 Comp with no price hike from the base M2), but they have reached a point when they will continue to depreciate at a normal pace... or at least a normal M-car pace. Waiting will mean lower prices, as it does with all cars... but not necessarily drastically lower (unless that charity scenario arises).

S55 is a better engine, but the N55 is a really great engine too. S55 is closed deck, twin turbo and a bunch of other upgrades... some of which made it to the N55, some of which did not. N55 is open deck, twin-scroll single turbo. S55 has more tuning headroom stock, N55 has some room but would need a new turbo to get a lot more. S55 is a typical twin turbo that kicks you in the pants when it hits. N55 is smoother and more like an NA engine. Both are about the same emissions-wise. S55 sounds like a loud, sustained fart when revved. N55 sounds awesome, has wonderful crackle and burble, and brings smile to your face.

Under regular use, you will likely never need more than the N55 can give you in the city or cross country on winding roads just enjoying being alive. If you like to occasionally goose it and scare yourself... the N55 will do that too. If you like to track, like stoplight drag racing or other illegal activities, or just like bragging rights, you will need more.
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      12-01-2017, 10:48 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by norMcal View Post
I don't agree completely. It always boils down to supply and demand and the GT3 has certainly been a prime example of that. However, there are now A LOT of them on the used market and just because the asking prices are high, does not mean the selling prices are also. Look how long some of them have been on the market. I bet many of them are just feeling out the market. If you own a GT3, then that is most likely your 3rd or 4th car and you can afford to buy a new one. So why not list yours and see if it sells for a ridiculous amount. I doubt that many sell for that much. Who in their right mind would pay $135k for a used one, when you can buy a new one for $145k?

Yes, they have been phenomenal regarding their value retention, but they will go through the exact same thing the M2 is starting to go through, especially since the 991.2 can now be had with MT.
I own a 996TT, which is a great car, but the reason I bought that one was that it was the only Porsche Turbo whose price resembles what it is worth, at least to me. As you state, there are a lot of high-priced used sports cars on the market. As a "student" of the used 1M market, I can say that there are a lot of them that have been on the market for 2 years or more, at very high prices. It reminds me of resort area real estate in the area where I live; people put their trophy homes on the market at ridiculously high prices and they sit there for years and years and years, all the while during which the owners go about their business and use those homes. Listing them for sale is basically the owners saying, "if you are dumb enough to pay me $4 million for my house that is worth, at most, $2.5 million, it's yours."

Final comment is that BMWs are not Porsches, and the resale market for these brands reflects that fact.
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      12-01-2017, 10:50 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
I'm no expert on engines and can't speak to the differences of the S55 vs. N55. The N55 is a great engine and I have 2 cars with this engine and am quite happy with it. People will always say that it is not a "real M" engine, something they say about the tuned N54 in the 1M, however this has not effected resale :-)

The current M2 has more than enough power, unlike the S52 Z3M Coupe, one of which happens to be in my "stable." It is true that the S54-engined Z3M Coupes sell for a lot more than the earlier, 1999-2000 models, such as mine. On the other hand, the Z3M Coupe is a really "goofy" kind of a car whose appeal, in my opinion, is way more than the fact that it's a powerful sports car. When I drive that car I find that it has plenty of power for what it is, and I don't regret having dropped $22K on mine (~3 years ago), vs. having spent way more for an S54 version. In addition, the rear subframe of these cars was not designed for a powerful engine like the S54, and as a result, there is a high rate of rear-subframe failure in these cars, which invites a multi-thousand-dollar repair if not already done on a given car.

My guess is that neither version of the current M2 is going to be very valuable as a collector's car, regardless of engine, within the next 10-20 years, and you should just buy whichever one you prefer for whatever reason, or like me, wait and see what happens to the pricing and either buy or don't buy later. It's just a car.
Thanks for the attempt to answer the difference. I assume there is more to it and I am sure someone else will chime in.

Nice stable you have. I did not realize the M Coupe's had subframe issues like the e46's do. My e46 M3 is sitting at 43k miles and has zero issues so far, plus I have done the factory epoxy, and also installed a removable custom brace. Just praying that is enough to hold it together until I sell it again.
I agree the S54, although a superb engine, is not all that powerful. Between owning my first e46 M3 and my second there was a 10 year gap, and during those years I got spoiled with turbo powered cars (STI/335i/335d/GTI). It was actually a bit disappointing at first driving an S54. I since have come to appreciate it again though. As it really shines on track when it is operating in its sweet spot between 5-8K rpm

Sorry for going completely off topic.
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