[stefan]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

N55 shines only on exhaust notes and reliability. NOTHING else as of yet.

True. http://youwheel.com/home/2016/03/27/...linder-engine/

[S1monQc]

Originally Posted by stefan

True. http://youwheel.com/home/2016/03/27/...linder-engine/

2 very important aspects in my book tho.

[No Boost]

I'd still take the N55 over that 4 banger travesty that Porsche stuck in the 718.

[XutvJet]

If you want more topend power with the N55, the answer is simple. Pure Stage 2. Done.

The B58 is a stellar motor but it's long term reliability is bit of an unknown. It does have a closed deck block (N55 is open), but that is largely because BMW wanted to save costs with the turbo diesel design, thus, the B58 uses the same block as the turbo diesel motors. Parts bin sharing at it's best. With that said, you rarely hear of block failures on 600hp+ N54s and N55s. There should be little concern of the N55 block being weak unless you plan to push a monstrous amount of power through it, which IMO, is dumb and wrecks the stellar performance of the M2. The B58 has a forged crank but so does the M2/M235. From a reliability standpoint, the spooky things about the B58 are the following:

1) Rear mounted timing chain. BMW's history with these designs are not good. It's an engine out repair if something happens to the timing chain or tensioners.

2) Air/water intercooler. While superior to an air/air IC in terms of IAT management, there's a lot more moving mechanical and electrical parts. Namely, an extra coolant pump and coolant reservoir, extra electrical sensors, and an intake manifold with passages full of coolant. BMW's history with cooling systems and breakage may give some pause as these parts age. An intake manifold full of coolant is one crack away from block hydrolock.

3) Oil pump for the turbo. The turbo uses an electronic oil pump. The N55 does not.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

If you want more topend power with the N55, the answer is simple. Pure Stage 2. Done.

Or stage 1

[TampaF87]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

If you want more topend power with the N55, the answer is simple. Pure Stage 2. Done.

The B58 is a stellar motor but it's long term reliability is bit of an unknown. It does have a closed deck block (N55 is open), but that is largely because BMW wanted to save costs with the turbo diesel design, thus, the B58 uses the same block as the turbo diesel motors. Parts bin sharing at it's best. With that said, you rarely hear of block failures on 600hp+ N54s and N55s. There should be little concern of the N55 block being weak unless you plan to push a monstrous amount of power through it, which IMO, is dumb and wrecks the stellar performance of the M2. The B58 has a forged crank but so does the M2/M235. From a reliability standpoint, the spooky things about the B58 are the following:

1) Rear mounted timing chain. BMW's history with these designs are not good. It's an engine out repair if something happens to the timing chain or tensioners.

2) Air/water intercooler. While superior to an air/air IC in terms of IAT management, there's a lot more moving mechanical and electrical parts. Namely, an extra coolant pump and coolant reservoir, extra electrical sensors, and an intake manifold with passages full of coolant. BMW's history with cooling systems and breakage may give some pause as these parts age. An intake manifold full of coolant is one crack away from block hydrolock.

3) Oil pump for the turbo. The turbo uses an electronic oil pump. The N55 does not.

All valid reasons.

Notice that with their new block design, which is designed for turbo diesel applications (modular development, not parts bin sharing), they are running higher boost pressure from a larger more efficient turbo. Not saying the N55 block isn't capable, because it most certainly is, but it definitely seems like they are going with the stereotypical German "over-engineering" philosophy.

The cooling in the intake plenum, while certainly a potential worry point, is typical. The 3.0T from Audi does this with it's S/C, and they have just a spotty history with coolant systems, if not worse. It's oddly one of the most reliable engines in the last decade, and my experience owning one wasn't any different. The article though makes this seems like this is a great space saving technique, but it still requires a heat exchange in direct airflow, which means the front bumper, so packaging doesn't get any better

I don't like the idea of having more coolant (more weight at top of engine, maintenance issues), more electronics and pumps that DO fail, and timing chains against the firewall is TERRIBLE in every application. That engine repair alone will make most people go broke (insert RS4 V8 service bill for timing chain repair here).

I'm just wondering why they didn't use the turbo unit from the B58 on the N55 for the M2, that just doesn't make sense to me

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by TampaF87

All valid reasons.

Notice that with their new block design, which is designed for turbo diesel applications (modular development, not parts bin sharing), they are running higher boost pressure from a larger more efficient turbo. Not saying the N55 block isn't capable, because it most certainly is, but it definitely seems like they are going with the stereotypical German "over-engineering" philosophy.

The cooling in the intake plenum, while certainly a potential worry point, is typical. The 3.0T from Audi does this with it's S/C, and they have just a spotty history with coolant systems, if not worse. It's oddly one of the most reliable engines in the last decade, and my experience owning one wasn't any different. The article though makes this seems like this is a great space saving technique, but it still requires a heat exchange in direct airflow, which means the front bumper, so packaging doesn't get any better

I don't like the idea of having more coolant (more weight at top of engine, maintenance issues), more electronics and pumps that DO fail, and timing chains against the firewall is TERRIBLE in every application. That engine repair alone will make most people go broke (insert RS4 V8 service bill for timing chain repair here).

I'm just wondering why they didn't use the turbo unit from the B58 on the N55 for the M2, that just doesn't make sense to me

Probably to save both on cost of the part and R&D time to tune it from scratch.

[Motivate]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

What a load of crap...Basically everybody created its own way of bragging about its car here above.

Speaking from experience in extensively testing on N54/55&S55 and a few B58s. Be realistic guys, compared to its competitions, N55 shines only on exhaust notes and reliability. NOTHING else as of yet.

Top end...please wake up guys!

I've heard that the N55 is more reliable, but is there any proven cases other than the fact that the engine's been around longer than the B58? Not doubting you and I'm likely getting a N55 as well. Just wondering if there is a real advantage. I'm thinking the N55 should be cheaper to maintain than the B58 as well.

[Motivate]

Originally Posted by O Haiii

im curious as to how the car dynos with aftermarket fmic and no other mods.

It would be interesting to see. There are some reviews where there testers complain about the M2 heating up after a few laps and no longer being able to produce the same amount of power. It's also happened during dynos with repeated runs where one gets worse after another.

I wonder has anyone figured out the cause and if an upgraded FMIC would solve the issue. SeanWRT what are your experiences with this issue? Would a FMIC upgrade on a stock car eliminate that issue and possibly increase power a little bit?

[Groby Gruger]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

I'd still take the N55 over that 4 banger travesty that Porsche stuck in the 718.

Couldn’t agree more. Test drove a base 718. The sound from inside the cockpit was enough to put me off buying one.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

I'm just wondering why they didn't use the turbo unit from the B58 on the N55 for the M2, that just doesn't make sense to me

Parts cost difference is negligible, tuning cost isn?t that much either. The real problem in using B58 turbo is that it?s not a bolt on replacement to N55 turbo. This is what really BMW doesn?t like - to engineer, open tooling for and manage all these new M2 exclusive parts - exhaust manifold, intake plumbing probably including an IC redesign. They may as well put in a detuned S55 and call it a day, which is what?s happening right now to M2 CS/Comp or whatever they call it.

Originally Posted by Motivate

I've heard that the N55 is more reliable, but is there any proven cases other than the fact that the engine's been around longer than the B58? Not doubting you and I'm likely getting a N55 as well. Just wondering if there is a real advantage. I'm thinking the N55 should be cheaper to maintain than the B58 as well.

It doesn?t take a broken engine to call it unreliable. Reliability is more about how less often you will have to send in your car to dealer to fix problem, bigger or smaller.

You heard 4 major reliability issue with N54 - HPFP failure (under stock boost), water pump failure, turbocharger rattle(wastegate bushing wear out) and intake valve carbon build up. These 4 issues aren?t the hit or miss ones, they WILL happen sooner or later, very very few n54 owners gets away with any of these.

When N55 PWG came out, all those issues except for HPFP, are addressed. Since the arrival of EWG in late 2014, HPFP has been reliable as well (not to confuse this with HPFP failure under aftermarket tuning and ethanol). N55 is now essentially a more efficient, more reliable and less powerful (due to turbo capacity) version of N54.

Originally Posted by Motivate

I wonder has anyone figured out the cause and if an upgraded FMIC would solve the issue. SeanWRT what are your experiences with this issue? Would a FMIC upgrade on a stock car eliminate that issue and possibly increase power a little bit?

M2 IAT management (not to be confused with engine oil/coolant cooling) is under-engineered because of cost saving from adopting M235i parts. Normally you?ll see a 20+F IAT climbing from your first 4th pull on dyno and things will get worse in repeated runs. When we talk about heat soak on dyno, really we?re talking about timing pull, normally. DME will decide at which point it starts to pull timing. To our experience, timing pull becomes noticeable enough from 125F. Therefore on a dyno, it is the ambient temp and fan flow capacity that dictates how long you will get there. Before you get there, you will not see gains from bigger IC. Probably you will lose a little bit power with bigger IC because normally it has more pressure drop which DME sometimes isn?t capable of compensate. Real world drag testing prove this very well. Especially when you do 1/4 mile, it reach the point where you have to balance cooling and flow capacity of FMIC.

Many say cooling are much better on stock FMIC in real world because you get enough flow. Typically that?s what happen when what they do is just one or two pull from 60-100mph and cruise 70mph for a few 10s and pull again...That?s not remotely pushing hard. Do a HPDE and you will know. Or do two consecutive 1/4 mile pull (just brake hard to stop and no break in between at all), m2 will see heat soak BADLY right away even in winter. That?s what I know last year

[Motivate]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Parts cost difference is negligible, tuning cost isn?t that much either. The real problem in using B58 turbo is that it?s not a bolt on replacement to N55 turbo. This is what really BMW doesn?t like - to engineer, open tooling for and manage all these new M2 exclusive parts - exhaust manifold, intake plumbing probably including an IC redesign. They may as well put in a detuned S55 and call it a day, which is what?s happening right now to M2 CS/Comp or whatever they call it.



It doesn?t take a broken engine to call it unreliable. Reliability is more about how less often you will have to send in your car to dealer to fix problem, bigger or smaller.

You heard 4 major reliability issue with N54 - HPFP failure (under stock boost), water pump failure, turbocharger rattle(wastegate bushing wear out) and intake valve carbon build up. These 4 issues aren?t the hit or miss ones, they WILL happen sooner or later, very very few n54 owners gets away with any of these.

When N55 PWG came out, all those issues except for HPFP, are addressed. Since the arrival of EWG in late 2014, HPFP has been reliable as well (not to confuse this with HPFP failure under aftermarket tuning and ethanol). N55 is now essentially a more efficient, more reliable and less powerful (due to turbo capacity) version of N54.


M2 IAT management (not to be confused with engine oil/coolant cooling) is under-engineered because of cost saving from adopting M235i parts. Normally you?ll see a 20+F IAT climbing from your first 4th pull on dyno and things will get worse in repeated runs. When we talk about heat soak on dyno, really we?re talking about timing pull, normally. DME will decide at which point it starts to pull timing. To our experience, timing pull becomes noticeable enough from 125F. Therefore on a dyno, it is the ambient temp and fan flow capacity that dictates how long you will get there. Before you get there, you will not see gains from bigger IC. Probably you will lose a little bit power with bigger IC because normally it has more pressure drop which DME sometimes isn?t capable of compensate. Real world drag testing prove this very well. Especially when you do 1/4 mile, it reach the point where you have to balance cooling and flow capacity of FMIC.

Many say cooling are much better on stock FMIC in real world because you get enough flow. Typically that?s what happen when what they do is just one or two pull from 60-100mph and cruise 70mph for a few 10s and pull again...That?s not remotely pushing hard. Do a HPDE and you will know. Or do two consecutive 1/4 mile pull (just brake hard to stop and no break in between at all), m2 will see heat soak BADLY right away even in winter. That?s what I know last year

So much for the "Track Cooling" advertised by BMW then huh. For all the praise that the M2 has received, there are some real weaknesses there.

Still makes no sense that they would drop in the B58 to the M240i while keeping the N55 in the M2. I guess the overwhelming demand for the N55 M2 made it unnecessary for them to put in the effort.

[PackPride85]

Whether the DME can cover the larger IC depends on the stock tune. I'm guessing these cars are load based tunes with a table for wg values including a max. If that max value isn't high enough, the turbo won't be able to compensate. That's where a platform like bootmod3 comes in.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Whether the DME can cover the larger IC depends on the stock tune. I'm guessing these cars are load based tunes with a table for wg values including a max. If that max value isn't high enough, the turbo won't be able to compensate. That's where a platform like bootmod3 comes in.

Quite the opposite.

On stock tune, load target isn?t that high, so hardwares can handle some extra boost for bad working conditions - less dense air from altitude, pressure loss by intake piping, or higher ambient temp (when not high enough to heat soak).

When you tune it up to higher load target, you?re using the headroom from hardware, so they?ll be less capable of dealing with environmental variance to ensure the output unaffected. As a result, aftermarket tuned car will be much more vulnerable.

The good tuning approach in my book is never to max out anything, especially turbo (boost headroom), octane and cooling.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Quite the opposite.

On stock tune, load target isn?t that high, so hardwares can handle some extra boost for bad working conditions - less dense air from altitude, pressure loss by intake piping, or higher ambient temp (when not high enough to heat soak).

When you tune it up to higher load target, you?re using the headroom from hardware, so they?ll be less capable of dealing with environmental variance to ensure the output unaffected. As a result, aftermarket tuned car will be much more vulnerable.

The good tuning approach in my book is never to max out anything, especially turbo (boost headroom), octane and cooling.

Yeah I think we're on the same page. My guess is the max boost value is lowered significantly near the top end for stock to keep the turbo from being a flamethrower. At least, that's how I've seen it on other load based stock tunes.

[O Haiii]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Quite the opposite.

On stock tune, load target isn?t that high, so hardwares can handle some extra boost for bad working conditions - less dense air from altitude, pressure loss by intake piping, or higher ambient temp (when not high enough to heat soak).

When you tune it up to higher load target, you?re using the headroom from hardware, so they?ll be less capable of dealing with environmental variance to ensure the output unaffected. As a result, aftermarket tuned car will be much more vulnerable.

The good tuning approach in my book is never to max out anything, especially turbo (boost headroom), octane and cooling.

So why does bmw not offer a MPPSK for the M2 like they do for the 1/2/3/440s? It seems like a no brainer. Flash and exhaust and 40hp and bmw makes money and keeps the consumers happy with the warranty intact..

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by O Haiii

So why does bmw not offer a MPPSK for the M2 like they do for the 1/2/3/440s? It seems like a no brainer. Flash and exhaust and 40hp and bmw makes money and keeps the consumers happy with the warranty intact..

The 335/435 (N55 equipped) doesn't come with the MPPK, but you can add it.
The M235 (N55 equipped) comes with the MPPK stock hence why it's power ratings are 20hp/30tq higher than a stock 335/435. The M2 is essentially an MPPK+ motor from the start. As many have seen, there isn't a ton of headroom left with M2 N55 turbo. I'm pretty sure the stock power the M2 puts out is the limit BMW saw fit to meet long term reliability goals, both on the street and track.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The 335/435 (N55 equipped) doesn't come with the MPPK, but you can add it.
The M235 (N55 equipped) comes with the MPPK stock hence why it's power ratings are 20hp/30tq higher than a stock 335/435. The M2 is essentially an MPPK+ motor from the start. As many have seen, there isn't a ton of headroom left with M2 N55 turbo. I'm pretty sure the stock power the M2 puts out is the limit BMW saw fit to meet long term reliability goals, both on the street and track.

I figure if you live in a cold climate then you probably have room on Stage 1 there. Especially for the street.

Personally I have noticed the heat soak. Did 3 launches with a friend's DCT model and it was completely gasping for air midway through the third launch. I can't imagine how people run a whole track day on the stock setup. To me the M2 isn't really a track car. It's a street car. I think the S58 will be the motor for the track junkies.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by stefan

I figure if you live in a cold climate then you probably have room on Stage 1 there. Especially for the street.

Personally I have noticed the heat soak. Did 3 launches with a friend's DCT model and it was completely gasping for air midway through the third launch. I can't imagine how people run a whole track day on the stock setup. To me the M2 isn't really a track car. It's a street car. I think the S58 will be the motor for the track junkies.

I wonder if a lot of people are mistaking the timing pull from heat soak for the DME not using overboost? I thought I read somewhere it will only work for 30 seconds at a time.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

I wonder if a lot of people are mistaking the timing pull from heat soak for the DME not using overboost? I thought I read somewhere it will only work for 30 seconds at a time.

I could very well be but honestly I have no clue how long the cooldown period is. It definitely seems like you can only use it for two shots to 100 and then its just gone.. seemingly for a while.

[Motivate]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Parts cost difference is negligible, tuning cost isn?t that much either. The real problem in using B58 turbo is that it?s not a bolt on replacement to N55 turbo. This is what really BMW doesn?t like - to engineer, open tooling for and manage all these new M2 exclusive parts - exhaust manifold, intake plumbing probably including an IC redesign. They may as well put in a detuned S55 and call it a day, which is what?s happening right now to M2 CS/Comp or whatever they call it.



It doesn?t take a broken engine to call it unreliable. Reliability is more about how less often you will have to send in your car to dealer to fix problem, bigger or smaller.

You heard 4 major reliability issue with N54 - HPFP failure (under stock boost), water pump failure, turbocharger rattle(wastegate bushing wear out) and intake valve carbon build up. These 4 issues aren?t the hit or miss ones, they WILL happen sooner or later, very very few n54 owners gets away with any of these.

When N55 PWG came out, all those issues except for HPFP, are addressed. Since the arrival of EWG in late 2014, HPFP has been reliable as well (not to confuse this with HPFP failure under aftermarket tuning and ethanol). N55 is now essentially a more efficient, more reliable and less powerful (due to turbo capacity) version of N54.


M2 IAT management (not to be confused with engine oil/coolant cooling) is under-engineered because of cost saving from adopting M235i parts. Normally you?ll see a 20+F IAT climbing from your first 4th pull on dyno and things will get worse in repeated runs. When we talk about heat soak on dyno, really we?re talking about timing pull, normally. DME will decide at which point it starts to pull timing. To our experience, timing pull becomes noticeable enough from 125F. Therefore on a dyno, it is the ambient temp and fan flow capacity that dictates how long you will get there. Before you get there, you will not see gains from bigger IC. Probably you will lose a little bit power with bigger IC because normally it has more pressure drop which DME sometimes isn?t capable of compensate. Real world drag testing prove this very well. Especially when you do 1/4 mile, it reach the point where you have to balance cooling and flow capacity of FMIC.

Many say cooling are much better on stock FMIC in real world because you get enough flow. Typically that?s what happen when what they do is just one or two pull from 60-100mph and cruise 70mph for a few 10s and pull again...That?s not remotely pushing hard. Do a HPDE and you will know. Or do two consecutive 1/4 mile pull (just brake hard to stop and no break in between at all), m2 will see heat soak BADLY right away even in winter. That?s what I know last year

The more I think about it, if the M2 can't do that, how can it be considered as a great track tool? I've also seen videos of guys pushing it on the track and noticing a drop in power after a few laps. I like that car a lot, but it seems there are some big inefficiencies.

[Karmic Man]

The M2 was never marketed as a track tool.

It is a fun car and an entry level M car that you can track (not a track tool though) and should be taken as such. I don't understand why some people (may be owners) like to position it as a better track car than the M3/M4.

A track tool is the M4 GTS and to a certain extent the M4 CS.

Hopefully the upcoming S55 variant M2 will be positioned as such but this will be reflected in the pricing.