[Gunner5390]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

You wouldn't be wrong .. you would be 100 percent correct. The 1 series hatches are a great platform! It's the US market where they have no 4 door below the 3 series.


BMW NA brought out a lower priced 320 that is under the 328, 335/340 and M cars here. I would bet the european market may even have a model below that like a 316d or 320d.

There are two generations of 1 series hatchbacks in 3 and 5 dr guise that BMW hasn't attempted to sell as BMW feels they can't sell hatchbacks in the US despite VW, audi , Volvo Subaru ( off and on ) , Hyundai , Honda , and multiple other manufacturers doing so as well.

So BMW has given up on the US market when it comes to *both* compact hatchback and sedan. The hatchback they abandoned after E36 and they abandoned the small sedan after E46.

So actually , both of those categories they expect US buyers to buy a 2 series coupe,
an X1 ( that's now AWD), or a 3 series that's a mini 5 series. The US didn't even get the E84 X1 until 3 years after it came out in Europe.

Now BMW leads the class in a 5 door hatchback in the X1 .. they just call it an SUV even though the same vehicle has a Mini badge.

Unfortunately many buyers choose the vehicles above as BMW has lost ground to other luxury manufacturers in the US market.

Indeed a mystery...

I agree regarding the the 316, we see more of 316i rather than the diesels...

[Game]

Originally Posted by mtoosexy

The M2 Sedan would be the perfect iteration of a car for me right now!!! Why OH Why don't they have this already?... It would spank RS3's all the way back to their mutter. I would buy 2... well maybe

Uhhhh nope.

[Arcanum-UK]

Originally Posted by Arcanum-UK

A hatch would make more sense - at least for non-US markets. It's a glaring hole in the M line up that there's no equivalent to the RS3 hatch and AMG A-Class. The closest is the M140i.

The next hole in the M line up is the lack of an RS4 equivalent, ceding the entire fast-estate market to Audi.

Originally Posted by spuntyb

Wrong

The biggest hole is no M wagon

What you in the US call a wagon, we in the UK call an estate. So we're pretty much agreeing, I think. [the B9 RS4 is only available in estate layout]

I'd bet that an M 1-Series hatchback would be the best selling M in Europe if BMW made one. Partly because it would likely be the lowest price point M, partly because hot hatches sell extremely well in Europe. e.g. VW Golf-R, Audi RS3, Merc A-Class AMG.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Arcanum-UK

I'd bet that an M 1-Series hatchback would be the best selling M in Europe if BMW made one. Partly because it would likely be the lowest price point M, partly because hot hatches sell extremely well in Europe. e.g. VW Golf-R, Audi RS3, Merc A-Class AMG.

I agree that a 1M hatchback would have been an epic offering if they'd built one.

Although this may sound a little farfetched, I would not be surprised if the decision not to offer such a vehicle was made in part because they knew they'd be unable to offer a suitable successor with the upcoming third generation UKL-based F4x 1 Series. By topping the F2x lineup out with the M140i M Performance model, they gave themselves the ability to, with some effort, match the performance of that flagship vehicle with the upcoming M Performance M135i. By contrast, since the next generation G4x 2 Series coupe and convertible will remain RWD, there was no such concern because they will be able to continue with an I6 (quite possibly an S58 for the M2 next time around).

This is all somewhat critical because they need to be able to sell the change to FWD as a win in every way possible. They'll be able to tout not just features like the roomier interior (shorter engine compartment means more space for passenger compartment), but no compromise in performance vs. the outgoing model (new M135i will be AWD-only, and with 300hp+ from a lighter weight I4, should match the outgoing M140i AWD model on paper if not always in the real world).

[Auto Pilot]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Unfortunately it does, as soon as MB started doing this with AMG it was clear that BMW would follow suit. Not a fan of the use of M on anything other than a full M car but we don't get a vote.

It all began with Audi bringing the "S" versions of their cars down market. I seem to recall the existence of M Sport and M### before seeing AMG Sport or AMG C43, but I could be wrong.

[Auto Pilot]

Originally Posted by Aronis

DAM RIGHT!!!!!!!

Same for S-line in Audis. Just a technique to drive sales and fool wanna be's.

Why not just put M5 badge on every BMW? Sales would soar!

Mike

While Audi had S-line BMW had M-sport.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by MZWIE

Of course you missed the point. Leave the M2 alone. No one needs an X2 or a four door M2. Those vehicles already exist in the BMW catalog.

And on Bimmerpost (renders by forum fellow Paul-Bracq-BMW).



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[marcva]

Yeah, now that I see those pictures, the 2 looks terrible with 4 doors. Maybe if you built it on a fwd platform with an AWD option?

Do you think that would make a small 4 door sedan acceptable to BMW?

[Arcanum-UK]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I agree that a 1M hatchback would have been an epic offering if they'd built one.

Although this may sound a little farfetched, I would not be surprised if the decision not to offer such a vehicle was made in part because they knew they'd be unable to offer a suitable successor with the upcoming third generation UKL-based F4x 1 Series. By topping the F2x lineup out with the M140i M Performance model, they gave themselves the ability to, with some effort, match the performance of that flagship vehicle with the upcoming M Performance M135i. By contrast, since the next generation G4x 2 Series coupe and convertible will remain RWD, there was no such concern because they will be able to continue with an I6 (quite possibly an S58 for the M2 next time around).

This is all somewhat critical because they need to be able to sell the change to FWD as a win in every way possible. They'll be able to tout not just features like the roomier interior (shorter engine compartment means more space for passenger compartment), but no compromise in performance vs. the outgoing model (new M135i will be AWD-only, and with 300hp+ from a lighter weight I4, should match the outgoing M140i AWD model on paper if not always in the real world).

Actually, it sounds pretty plausible.

[msej449]

In the UK there seems to be a big divergence between 1 Series



and 2 Series owners in terms of what each is looking for, and that these are two very different markets. Other than that both have a M-Lite (M140i, M240i) version.

My analysis is that the Euro 1 Series is the shape it is precisely because of the requirement for 4 doors (and to some extent, a rear hatch). You get a shape that makes the rear seating and doors practical and usable i.e. if you want usable 4 doors - this is what you get. It's this model that competes with the Audi A3 and what I looked at when I moved from an A3 Sline Sportsback.

The 1 Series is very popular over here and covers a wide range including 2-door, xDrive and M-Lite variants. I can't understand why BMW doesn't sell them in the USA.

If you put 4 doors on a 2 Series, to make the rear seats/doors practical for adults, you'd have to stretch the body to 3 Series dimensions, so there'd be no point. If you didn't stretch it, I think that a lot of people would just complain that the rear doors and space was impractical.

[Fugly M3]

Goes to show how many people were yearning for a proper BMW!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by msej449

I can't understand why BMW doesn't sell them in the USA.

In the US, compact, two-box hatchbacks tend to have a reputation for being low rent, basic transportation, if also practical and sometimes even sporty nevertheless. Unfortunately, this stigma is incompatible with the goals of the typical luxury vehicle buyer which is to make a statement and give off a premium, upmarket vibe.

Audi tried a few years ago with the A3, but could not move enough of them at the price they needed to sell them for to be profitable. Had they been more successful, we’d likely have seen them bring the vehicle back for another generation and probably add the S3 and maybe even the RS3. We’d also likely have seen BMW and Mercedes bring over the 1 Series and A Class respectively to compete.

I should add that BMW once attempted to sell the 3 Series Compact hatchback here and Mercedes brought their C Class SportCoupé hatchback briefly as well. These products also failed to make an impact and did not return to the US for their second and final generations. I should also mention that, while Audi does sell the A3 hatchback here in hybrid form, that’s something of an exception. Green cars play by a different set of rules. The BMW i3 is another example. Even this is not a sure bet, however, as we’ve seen with the recent exit of the Lexus CT.

Today’s A3 Sedan, CLA, and the upcoming A Class sedan and 2 Series Gran Coupe, in some part, owe their existence to past failed attempts to sell luxury compact hatchbacks in the US. Of course these products also sell well in China too. Hence the 1 Series Sedan BMW currently sells only in that market.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

In the US, compact, two-box hatchbacks tend to have a reputation for being low rent, basic transportation, if also practical and sometimes even sporty nevertheless. Unfortunately, this stigma is incompatible with the goals of the typical luxury vehicle buyer which is to make a statement and give off a premium, upmarket vibe.

The problem is the definition of "luxury" that you are using and what you impute to be the motivation(s) of buyers in this segment. One need not look much further than the exploding market segment of "Hot Hatches" to see the error in this analysis.

I don't personally believe that every buyer of a car with a BMW badge on it is looking to impress their neighbor with just how special is the car that they have parked in their driveway, and how much cooler it is than the Camry in the driveway across the street. BMWs are ubiquitous now, and when I see one drive by it makes absolutely no impression on me. Most of them drive like Camrys, anyway. Some people actually care how their car drives, and how functional it is. There is an intersection of these two lines between how the car drives and how functional it is that defines the "hot hatch" market. Most of these cars are designed, at least cosmetically, for teenagers, or people who behave like they are one. VW has carved out a little niche for itself with the Golf R, which is basically a 5 door hot hatch for adults, with around 300 hp and that can be purchased with a manual transmission.

BMW could make this car, albeit a little bit nicer, and instead of asking $40K for it they could get $50K. But they don't.

I don't even think that you need to have 4 doors, but if you don't have 4 doors, then it needs to have a hatch; otherwise, the car is just impractical for a whole bunch of tasks.

I will soon have an M2; I also have a Golf R. If the M2 had a hatch, I'd unload the Golf R, as it would be superfluous. Hardly anyone can have a car like an M2 as their only vehicle, it just isn't practical for those times when you need to carry more than one other adult, or you need to transport something other than a suitcase. And as much fun as driving cars can be, sometimes you need them to actually be practical.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Given that they are counting M Performance vehicles toward M Division’s total - which admittedly makes sense - 2018 and 2019 are going to be record years for M Division.

2017 - M550i, X3 M40i
2018 - X2 M35i, X4 M40i, tentatively X5 “M50i”, tentatively X7 “M50i” (names not confirmed yet), Z4 M40i, M340i, M850i
2019 - possible X1 M35i, M135i Sedan (China), M135i Sporthatch, M235i GC

There are also some M40d and M50d models coming (not to US).

All of those except the M135i hatchback, which succeeds the current M140i hatchback, will represent brand new products. Now, you could rightly point out that those M Performance models are merely taking over the spot of what used to be the top trim non-M model. But, in any case, this means that all of those sales will now count toward M Division’s total.

There should truly be two counts in my opinion M Performance & True ///M GmbH Models.

Just so they can break out the two separately from each other.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

There should truly be two counts in my opinion M Performance & True ///M GmbH Models.

I agree as the vehicles are still separate items, especially as we get into CS offerings etc in the True M car ranks.

We are lucky they are even providing counts because in the past they have rarely even provided info on sales of M cars at all.

Luckily we do have VIN Hawks in these forums. ...

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by champignon

The problem is the definition of "luxury" that you are using and what you impute to be the motivation(s) of buyers in this segment. One need not look much further than the exploding market segment of "Hot Hatches" to see the error in this analysis.

I am not defining luxury, I am simply opting to use what has been established by leading trusted sources for vehicle segmentation, just as the automakers do (you may even have heard this specifically referred to in some car commercials and the like). For example:

https://www.edmunds.com/luxury/

Now it is true that there is no single source of the truth and you may find variance among other sources. And, sure, you can make up your own list of what products you think are luxury vehicles too. In any case, though, if you make a list of all the compact two-box hatchbacks in the US, you are not going to find the usual luxury suspects - BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Volvo, Cadillac, Lincoln, Genesis, etc. on there.

Furthermore, my recounting of the history of luxury (as defined above) compact hatchbacks in the US is indeed historically accurate (though I am not claiming it to be exhaustive). The conclusion is sound: they have been attempted but no one could sustain sales.

If you'd like to further debate the definition of a luxury vehicle, let me know and we can take it elsewhere so as not to take this thread off topic.

I don't personally believe that every buyer of a car with a BMW badge on it is looking to impress their neighbor with just how special is the car that they have parked in their driveway, and how much cooler it is than the Camry in the driveway across the street.

Certainly not everyone, no. But this is nevertheless a part of the branding that luxury automakers are trying to sell the vehicle buyer on. Even if your priorities or my priorities differ, as you’ve no doubt experienced, this brand message is all managed very carefully and pitched in a convincing manner. By the numbers, I think they do a good job in driving sales with this strategy even when, on technical merit, the product may not necessarily offer much tangible benefit when compared to a consensus non-luxury vehicle like the Toyota Camry you mention.

VW has carved out a little niche for itself with the Golf R, which is basically a 5 door hot hatch for adults, with around 300 hp and that can be purchased with a manual transmission.

BMW could make this car, albeit a little bit nicer, and instead of asking $40K for it they could get $50K. But they don't.

Indeed they don’t. But why don't they? And why doesn't anyone else either? It sure isn’t because they don’t like money, right? So what's the reason, then? I've suggested that it is because the market for such a vehicle simply isn’t there. I think I've made a good case by simply pointing out it has not worked for anyone in the past, that a number of small luxury sedans have been created instead, and that those have shown to be successful. Hey don't shoot the messenger!

That said, I wouldn’t pay $50k for a BMW Golf R equivalent - I'd just buy the Golf R instead. Heck if there were an M3 equivalent for $10k less, then I'd probably have bought that too.

Speaking of $50k, do you know what BMW does offer at that asking price? They actually have two hatchbacks - both the sexy 440i Gran Coupe and the not-so-stunning 340i GT. So that’s two 300hp+ BMW hatchbacks that you can buy today if you desire. Audi offers a similar product - the S5 Sportback. These types of vehicles demonstrate clearly where buyer trends are for $50k luxury hatchback in the US. These aren't very compact, unfortunately, and they also aren't necessarily as practical as the traditional two-box hatchback. But people want them anyway. We may not like it, but that's the nature of the beast.

[norMcal]

Growing up in Europe and moving to CA 30 years ago, I witnessed how big the difference in perception of hatchbacks between the two continents is. However, the hatchback as been getting more popular over here, as is evident with cars like the GTI, Focus RS, WRX, Civic Type R. Now that the SUV craze is cooling off just a little and many are looking for Cross overs, perhaps they are more inclined to go for hatchbacks when downsizing. Maybe the image is changing slowly here in the US, as it should, because hatchbacks are such fun and practical cars, that it is hard to ignore.

Frankly I am so satisfied with my 2013 VW GTI, that is has bee the car I have owned the longest ever. I have had many new BMW's, but newer once kept one for more than 3 1/2 years, and I am on year 6 with my Mk6 GTI.
BMW absolutely needs to get in to this segment (again). The argument that has often been, that it diminishes the brand, but IMHO that does no longer hold true. That ship has sailed. BMW has so many other cars that are not true to their heritage that it doesn't matter anymore, one or two more mainstream cars won't matter.

As far as making a 4 door M2 or 2-series. Absolutely. They need to plug in a new sports-sedan now that the 3 series is as big or bigger than the 5 series used to be. I have been saying this for years. I just read the review in R&T on the new M550i and it wasn't great. To heavy and not true to the original handling of old BMW's. More proof that BMW is moving away from sports sedan and just making big & fast luxury sedans. Only problem with that is, that is seem Mercedes is doing a better job in that segment.

BMW is losing it's soul. The M2 is really the only shining light in that regard. Sad.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am not defining luxury, I am simply opting to use what has been established by leading trusted sources for vehicle segmentation, just as the automakers do (you may even have heard this specifically referred to in some car commercials and the like). For example:

https://www.edmunds.com/luxury/

Now it is true that there is no single source of the truth and you may find variance among other sources. And, sure, you can make up your own list of what products you think are luxury vehicles too. In any case, though, if you make a list of all the compact two-box hatchbacks in the US, you are not going to find the usual luxury suspects - BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Volvo, Cadillac, Lincoln, Genesis, etc. on there.

Furthermore, my recounting of the history of luxury (as defined above) compact hatchbacks in the US is indeed historically accurate (though I am not claiming it to be exhaustive). The conclusion is sound: they have been attempted but no one could sustain sales.

If you'd like to further debate the definition of a luxury vehicle, let me know and we can take it elsewhere so as not to take this thread off topic.



Certainly not everyone, no. But this is nevertheless a part of the branding that luxury automakers are trying to sell the vehicle buyer on. Even if your priorities or my priorities differ, as you’ve no doubt experienced, this brand message is all managed very carefully and pitched in a convincing manner. By the numbers, I think they do a good job in driving sales with this strategy even when, on technical merit, the product may not necessarily offer much tangible benefit when compared to a consensus non-luxury vehicle like the Toyota Camry you mention.



Indeed they don’t. But why don't they? And why doesn't anyone else either? It sure isn’t because they don’t like money, right? So what's the reason, then? I've suggested that it is because the market for such a vehicle simply isn’t there. I think I've made a good case by simply pointing out it has not worked for anyone in the past, that a number of small luxury sedans have been created instead, and that those have shown to be successful. Hey don't shoot the messenger!

That said, I wouldn’t pay $50k for a BMW Golf R equivalent - I'd just buy the Golf R instead. Heck if there were an M3 equivalent for $10k less, then I'd probably have bought that too.

Speaking of $50k, do you know what BMW does offer at that asking price? They actually have two hatchbacks - both the sexy 440i Gran Coupe and the not-so-stunning 340i GT. So that’s two 300hp+ BMW hatchbacks that you can buy today if you desire. Audi offers a similar product - the S5 Sportback. These types of vehicles demonstrate clearly where buyer trends are for $50k luxury hatchback in the US. These aren't very compact, unfortunately, and they also aren't necessarily as practical as the traditional two-box hatchback. But people want them anyway. We may not like it, but that's the nature of the beast.

I don't necessarily disagree with the points you make, however BMW didn't use to be all about making "Lexus and Mercedes Wannabees," as they are now almost entirely focused on. I started out as a "BMW person," but left the reservation for a couple of decades entirely, and will leave it again, should this be the enduring case.

Most cars are pretty "luxurious" nowadays, compared to cars from the 1970s. Classy looking cars that drive like sofas seems to be the niche that BMW wants to produce now. When they entirely eliminate such things as responsiveness, handling, steering feedback, and manual transmissions, I will be looking at them in the rear view mirror, driving either vintage cars or some other brand. And this time is approaching, quickly.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by champignon

I don't necessarily disagree with the points you make, however BMW didn't use to be all about making "Lexus and Mercedes Wannabees," as they are now almost entirely focused on. I started out as a "BMW person," but left the reservation for a couple of decades entirely, and will leave it again, should this be the enduring case.

Most cars are pretty "luxurious" nowadays, compared to cars from the 1970s. Classy looking cars that drive like sofas seems to be the niche that BMW wants to produce now. When they entirely eliminate such things as responsiveness, handling, steering feedback, and manual transmissions, I will be looking at them in the rear view mirror, driving either vintage cars or some other brand. And this time is approaching, quickly.

Same here.

M2 is the only BMW that I am considering at the moment.

[Aronis]

Originally Posted by Auto Pilot

While Audi had S-line BMW had M-sport.

and both are marketing BS....

Mike

[marcva]

Originally Posted by Aronis

and both are marketing BS....

Mike

Correction. "S" denotes a sports trim level. M was a brand. Yes I understand that I drive a 332i.

[Fear-Mongrel]

Originally Posted by Aronis

and both are marketing BS....

Mike

If your wife asks you how she looks in that new dress and you tell her anything but the blatant truth, it's marketing BS. If you're wearing a t-shirt that costs more than $5, you've been victimized by marketing BS. If you don't work in manual labor and you shower more than 3x per week, you're engaging in marketing BS (excepting unfortunate victims of Trimethylaminuria). And if while in that shower you shampoo, rinse, and then you actually do repeat...they got you again.

Point is, all any of us are doing is giving ourselves and everyone else what we think is desired. One man's "marketing BS" is another man's market acuity.