[SEAT TIME RULES]

Yup no more N55 motors when production ceases on 2018's.

Thats what I'm wrestling with...$54K for a N55 or at least $62K for the 2019 S55 M2.

If the fueling limitations can be addressed on the N55 with a pump swap I'm probably all over the N55 build. $8-12K more for the new S55 platform is a little rich for my taste buds

[AlexCirci]

Originally Posted by akkando

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=136

"Well well well...

To be honest, I never even bothered to check the EOP of the original M2. Just never thought I would discover anything newsworthy...

June 2018.

Let the outrage begin."


http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...85&postcount=1

'M2 COMPETITION' UPDATE #4 (DECEMBER 2017)
Autumn 2017: 'M2 Competition' PR campaign cars have been built (see here);
Winter 2017-2018: release and presentation of the M2 Competition (presentation location currently still unknown, but guessed to be the Geneva International Motor Show in March 2018 as likely venue - see here);
mid 2018: M2 Competition (3.0 S55 engine - 302kW) replaces the base M2 (3.0 N55 engine - 272 kW);

Thanks for this!

[MR_M2]

Why not just buy ZL1 1LE? 650-hp and 650-lb-ft; pretty much a factory race car that will run circles around any M.

[Bt12]

I’m struggling to understand why most tuned M2’s can only run up to high teens boost. What is the reason we cannot run higher boost in the low 20’s psi safely. The engine in general I thought was updated from a standard n55.

If I’m mistaken here can someone enlighten me

[SEAT TIME RULES]

Originally Posted by Bt12

I’m struggling to understand why most tuned M2’s can only run up to high teens boost. What is the reason we cannot run higher boost in the low 20’s psi safely. The engine in general I thought was updated from a standard n55.

If I’m mistaken here can someone enlighten me

I haven't seen many dyno sheets with more than 21psi. Again its got to be fueling issues. Someone else can chime in with more details?

I haven't read about that many "built motors" Ie rods, pistons, crankshaft, cams etc...

I know on my current EVO I run 28psi on pump 93 and up to 33psi on E85.

Its on a big Garrett turbo GTX 3576 its cammed with forged internals.

[Bt12]

Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES

I haven't seen many dyno sheets with more than 21psi. Again its got to be fueling issues. Someone else can chime in with more details?

I haven't read about that many "built motors" Ie rods, pistons, crankshaft, cams etc...

I know on my current EVO I run 28psi on pump 93 and up to 33psi on E85.

Its on a big Garrett turbo GTX 3576 its cammed with forged internals.

Thanks, that’s what I’m struggling with. Why are most other platforms that are tuned running significantly higher boost vs the bmw tunes... i mean usually you do the dp and intake to take out restriction, then bring up boost and making sure fueling is capable ...before going big turbo (not just changing the compressor wheel) and supporting mods. Running in the high teens is barely tuning the car.

Bang for buck modding wise seems really shitty

[filet.M2c]

For reference, here you have an M2 N55 Pure Stage 2+FBO+PI+LPFP+E47 making 530/512

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1269659

And Here you have an M4 S55+BM3+catted DP+drop in filter on 93 making similar power at 500/550. All while holding power to nearly 7500 rpm vs the drop off in the N55 @ 6500 rpm

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1320220

If you're trying to make big power like you suggest, then go with the S55

[oldmanstyle]

If you've waited this long I'd wait and see what gets confirmed for next year.

[RedCarrot]

Originally Posted by SEAT TIME RULES

Your post is spot on....But I have plenty of experience both as a driver, and instructor in both seats to handle this platform with 600WHP.

I'll run 305's on the rear on the street and a square setup at the track.

I'll set the suspension up using my Solo DL and a pyrometer.

The tune will be setup for a consistent, progressive, manageble boost curve.

And most importantly the throttle settings will be setup to handle modulation at apex to track out..

Thx for the feedback so far....

HAZMAT

Sorry, I didn’t read your original post carefully enough to realize your driver profile and the purpose of the car. If you are dead set on reaching 500whp for track purposes, I think S55 is the way to go for theses reasons:

1. N55 potential is currently limited by fueling. While an HPFP solution(s) is on the way and its eventual tune support will soon followed, I don’t think you would want to employ them in a track setting immediately after their initial releases. S55 M2 could well be available by the time those components are trusted to be used on a track.

2. N55 brakes have already exceeded their limits in track setting at stock hp, much less at 500whp. S55 may have carbon brakes as an option. It will be expensive but so are the non-carbon aftermarket options if you bought them separately. Not sure solely using better pads would cut it as it is largely uncharted territory

3. S55 could have lighter weight panels (roof, hood, truck??)

And then there’s cooling. I am not sure there are any current FMIC offerings that can handle 500whp for a 20 minute track session. They are simply not subjected to such test because the makers don’t have a 500whp M2 to test their FMICs with.


Btw, is your name Steve? Think we might have crossed path at Fort Devens some 15 years ago lol

[Robin_NL]

I hate to say it here, there is only one thing the N55 is better vs the S55 and that's sound.

S55 anytime for me if I have the chance($$$)

Cheers
Robin

[SEAT TIME RULES]

Originally Posted by RedCarrot

Sorry, I didn’t read your original post carefully enough to realize your driver profile and the purpose of the car. If you are dead set on reaching 500whp for track purposes, I think S55 is the way to go for theses reasons:

1. N55 potential is currently limited by fueling. While an HPFP solution(s) is on the way and its eventual tune support will soon followed, I don’t think you would want to employ them in a track setting immediately after their initial releases. S55 M2 could well be available by the time those components are trusted to be used on a track.

2. N55 brakes have already exceeded their limits in track setting at stock hp, much less at 500whp. S55 may have carbon brakes as an option. It will be expensive but so are the non-carbon aftermarket options if you bought them separately. Not sure solely using better pads would cut it as it is largely uncharted territory

3. S55 could have lighter weight panels (roof, hood, truck??)

And then there’s cooling. I am not sure there are any current FMIC offerings that can handle 500whp for a 20 minute track session. They are simply not subjected to such test because the makers don’t have a 500whp M2 to test their FMICs with.


Btw, is your name Steve? Think we might have crossed path at Fort Devens some 15 years ago lol

Yes we crossed paths at Devens...I ran all the BMW events and EVO Schools from 2000-2011...

[abirmaher]

The N55 will always sound better and that's half the experience IMHO

[SEAT TIME RULES]

[QUOTE=RedCarrot;22674725]Sorry, I didn’t read your original post carefully enough to realize your driver profile and the purpose of the car. If you are dead set on reaching 500whp for track purposes, I think S55 is the way to go for theses reasons:


2. N55 brakes have already exceeded their limits in track setting at stock hp, much less at 500whp. S55 may have carbon brakes as an option. It will be expensive but so are the non-carbon aftermarket options if you bought them separately. Not sure solely using better pads would cut it as it is largely uncharted territory

I beg to differ on this point. A solid high temp range track pad with real brake ducting solves this problem all day long. Pads & rotors are expendables on a track ride. No way I'm going to waste my $ on carbon fiber rotors.... its just bling.

3. S55 could have lighter weight panels (roof, hood, truck??)

And then there’s cooling. I am not sure there are any current FMIC offerings that can handle 500whp for a 20 minute track session. They are simply not subjected to such test because the makers don’t have a 500whp M2 to test their FMICs with.

How can you be sure of this? There are 500WHP M2's running around, just not sure if they have been tracked hard yet...
19-21 lbs of boost is pretty conservative for a modern DI turbo motor.
Running a high quality race radiator with dual fan shrouds, a big ass FMIC, an oil cooler, and even additional engine bay ducting should be overkill on 19lbs of boost.

[spiritsavage]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

My thoughts exactly. More is not always better unless you are just looking for bragging rights. Just my opinion, you'll be slower with 600 Hp that you will be with 500 Hp. Above the mid 400s and traction becomes a real problem with this chassis.

Unless you are a rockstar driver who is highly skilled at driving a traction limited, 600 Hp, RWD car, I think it'll be a waste of money and potentially dangerous. I don't know your background or your abilities, but if you are anything like me or the 90% of the people on this forum, 600 Hp is just overkill.

I understand it's completely overkill for a daily, but I'm thinking about at the end of my 335xi's life gearing it for mainly spirited driving and track day use. Do you think there would still be as many control issues with an XDRIVE? This is considering that there is/will be a healthy 600hp mod for the n55.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by spiritsavage

I understand it's completely overkill for a daily, but I'm thinking about at the end of my 335xi's life gearing it for mainly spirited driving and track day use. Do you think there would still be as many control issues with an XDRIVE? This is considering that there is/will be a healthy 600hp mod for the n55.

In a vacuum, 600 HP on an AWD car should have less traction issues than 600 HP in a RWD car. That being sad, do I this 600 HP is advisable on an N55 in any chassis? No. I don't think 600 HP, N55, and "healthy" go together. Not without an extensive engine rebuild. I'm no tuner so I may be wrong. There may be folks all over this board now running 600+ HP on their N55, but I have not seen it yet.

Engine aside, at that HP level on the track you need to be considering massive suspension and brake upgrade. You also need to consider whether the drivetrain, in particular that front diff, can handle that kind of load.

I foresee you breaking a sh*t ton of really expensive parts if you go down this path.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

In a vacuum, 600 HP on an AWD car should have less traction issues than 600 HP in a RWD car. That being sad, do I this 600 HP is advisable on an N55 in any chassis? No. I don't think 600 HP, N55, and "healthy" go together. Not without an extensive engine rebuild. I'm no tuner so I may be wrong. There may be folks all over this board now running 600+ HP on their N55, but I have not seen it yet.

Engine aside, at that HP level on the track you need to be considering massive suspension and brake upgrade. You also need to consider whether the drivetrain, in particular that front diff, can handle that kind of load.

I foresee you breaking a sh*t ton of really expensive parts if you go down this path.

Firstly:
Not that I'm a fan of pushing high HP with F RWD platform, HP is an abstract thing and a calculated value. What really upsets the chassis is the torque, but the torque at different rpm means different hp.

In theory, 400lb*ft@3500rpm (250hp, roughly) would be just as difficult to handle as 400 pounds at 7000 (500hp). What I am getting at is, the maximum power to have is really the maximum torque at the usable rev ranges on WOT, which in M2 N55 case, is 4k~7k. Why from 4k, you may ask. Because 4k@3rd is where DME would put you when WOT at 50mph. It won't be downshifted to 5k5@2nd if you're not already on 2nd.

If somehow you think 450lb*ft on the wheel is the limit (that's what M4 CS put down on dynojet STOCK), then 450@6k5 would be 570whp.

The second point I will comment on is the maximum power N55 is capable of. To that question, we have to look at restrictions. After all these years, the ways, though some of them are downright stupid, have been figured out to address the issues of fueling (PI), octane (Meth, Ethanol) and cooling (IC and meth). They happily found themselves turbo restricted, because PS2 stop making more from 25psi and will fail in no time in that state. Then here come a few OTS turbo full bottom mount kits (STG3) that's 600whp possible. So people start to worry about internals even before the tuning is sorted out.

If I have to pick a point from which reliability is thrown out of the window, it would be the injection kit and ethanol. What they have in common is to mess up with the AFR. Without them, however high power N55 makes, it makes it in good health.

[ciannotta1385]

Yeah I thought it would be the S55 for all new M2s because the N55 couldn't meet emission regs and bmw didn't want to develop a different motor?

Might just be me but motor asided the new grill is pretty horrendous and would deter me from purchasing the new one.

[mr_lab_rat]

If you want to track it and looking for bigger power numbers then the initial cost of S55 will easily pay for itself later on.

[spiritsavage]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

In a vacuum, 600 HP on an AWD car should have less traction issues than 600 HP in a RWD car. That being sad, do I this 600 HP is advisable on an N55 in any chassis? No. I don't think 600 HP, N55, and "healthy" go together. Not without an extensive engine rebuild. I'm no tuner so I may be wrong. There may be folks all over this board now running 600+ HP on their N55, but I have not seen it yet.

Engine aside, at that HP level on the track you need to be considering massive suspension and brake upgrade. You also need to consider whether the drivetrain, in particular that front diff, can handle that kind of load.

I foresee you breaking a sh*t ton of really expensive parts if you go down this path.

Yeah, I was thinking about all of those upgrades already. I mean, when it's completely paid for and not needed as much as a daily, why not play with it some? But ideally I just want the 2019 M5 Competition. I just can't handle that Price Tag. Between the 335 and that there's not a really good AWD Bimmer. The front diff is what I was thinking would be the worst too. There just isn't one. But the rebuild isn't crazy considering I'll have to rebuild around 200k miles anyway. Which I think the 3-series is worth rebuilding IMO.

[spiritsavage]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Firstly:
Not that I'm a fan of pushing high HP with F RWD platform, HP is an abstract thing and a calculated value. What really upsets the chassis is the torque, but the torque at different rpm means different hp.

In theory, 400lb*ft@3500rpm (250hp, roughly) would be just as difficult to handle as 400 pounds at 7000 (500hp). What I am getting at is, the maximum power to have is really the maximum torque at the usable rev ranges on WOT, which in M2 N55 case, is 4k~7k. Why from 4k, you may ask. Because 4k@3rd is where DME would put you when WOT at 50mph. It won't be downshifted to 5k5@2nd if you're not already on 2nd.

If somehow you think 450lb*ft on the wheel is the limit (that's what M4 CS put down on dynojet STOCK), then 450@6k5 would be 570whp.


The second point I will comment on is the maximum power N55 is capable of. To that question, we have to look at restrictions. After all these years, the ways, though some of them are downright stupid, have been figured out to address the issues of fueling (PI), octane (Meth, Ethanol) and cooling (IC and meth). They happily found themselves turbo restricted, because PS2 stop making more from 25psi and will fail in no time in that state. Then here come a few OTS turbo full bottom mount kits (STG3) that's 600whp possible. So people start to worry about internals even before the tuning is sorted out.

If I have to pick a point from which reliability is thrown out of the window, it would be the injection kit and ethanol. What they have in common is to mess up with the AFR. Without them, however high power N55 makes, it makes it in good health.

I guess I kind of wish I could make a good 600 hp just because I've seen 900 hp N54s on Dyno. But I definitely did not see them off of Dynos. I honestly don't know how much the chassis could hold WOT. Obviously I can always go softer off the line shifting up, but the front diff is honestly what I think would go first.

[spiritsavage]

Originally Posted by mr_lab_rat

If you want to track it and looking for bigger power numbers then the initial cost of S55 will easily pay for itself later on.

Yeah, I guess I should get an actual track car. I just want a daily I can track. If I had the $ I would drop it on an M5 Comp definitely

[5.M0NSTER]

I have learned a lot going down the track specific tuning rabbit hole with my 2014 Mustang. The car had 420hp/380lb-ft from the factory so I went after suspension and brake upgrades first. Then more sticky rubber, then 101mm MAF and tuning to ~460hp/410lbft.

A year after that last step I started overheating the car on the track. I overcame the already up sized radiator and oil cooler capacity which came on the Track Pack model, on a naturally aspirated car. With more brake power, more grip, and more driver mod I started to be on the power earlier and for longer. Along with the tuning this simply overcame the cooling capacity.

I think if you want to track the car reliably for years to come AND you want big power your rabbit hole is way deeper. N55 M2s already loose power on a hot summer day due to IATs. And if you make big power you will also make big heat and this is what you need to manage to pull off 20-30 min track sessions.

I'd say go for DP, stage 1 tuning and upgrade the FMIC, radiator, oil cooler and aux cooler, plus brake ducts. If you bias your mods towards cooling you can squeeze out decent power out of the N55 reliably.

Or Ger S55 and do the same for 50+ HP more.

My $0.02