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      08-25-2016, 08:01 AM   #23
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m2 is the modern E46 m3, period.
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      08-25-2016, 08:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
m2 is the modern E46 m3, period.
Kind of.

One of the defining parts of the experience in the e46 M3 is the high revving, high hp, low torque , instantaneous throttle response engine-- completely different in character than the M2's engine.

I'd say that more accurately the M2 is the spiritual successor to the e46 M3-- "right" size, fun driving dynamics (something BMW forgot about between then and e46m and M2, except for the very limited production 1M).
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      08-25-2016, 12:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I would expect the benefits to break down as follows, given equal tires but otherwise stock:
Acceleration: M2
stopping distance: tie (M2)
fade resistance: M2
torque: M2
throttle response: M3 (Tie)
steering feel: M3
short term reliability: M2 (warranty/new car FTW)
long term reliability: M3 (turbos FTL) (M2, the E46 has some issues, the F87 is much more of a standard BMW Engine.)
Interior quality vs a nice e46: M3 (M3 by a mile)
interior quality vs a typical e46: M2 (E46, better seats, lower, better leather)
back seat space: M3 (Tie, M3 if sedan)
differential's ability to put power down: M2
superior powerband: depends on owner's taste (M2)
gauges: M3
ease of servicing/modding: M3
interior engine sound: M3 (Tie, M2 is magic too)
exterior exhaust note: M2
properly centered driver's seat: M3 (LOL, yes)
stock vs stock lap times with professional driver: M2
real world tracked car lap times: driver/mod based (In stock form M2)
gadgets/gizmos/driver assists: M2
looks: M3 (subjective, technically... but I don't think anyone's going to disagree) (Subjective)
I've owned both and I would argue the above changes. The M2 is really a newer E46 M3. That's really how it feels.
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      08-25-2016, 12:50 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
throttle response: M3 (Tie)
That would... defy physics.

See 3:13 in this video

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      09-03-2016, 04:56 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
That would... defy physics.
Completely agree with you if this was the '90s. Much of this is mitigated now, above 3k RPMs there is no discernable delay in throttle. It isn't the F80's anti-lag, but it's close.

Also we are talking about the e46 M3 which had little to nothing under 3k RPM's, so I should have prefaced my answer with "above 3k RPMs for both cars".

I also should have noted that my e46 M3 had a ZHP steering rack, as they were much better.
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      09-05-2016, 07:07 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
Completely agree with you if this was the '90s. Much of this is mitigated now, above 3k RPMs there is no discernable delay in throttle. It isn't the F80's anti-lag, but it's close.

Also we are talking about the e46 M3 which had little to nothing under 3k RPM's, so I should have prefaced my answer with "above 3k RPMs for both cars".

I also should have noted that my e46 M3 had a ZHP steering rack, as they were much better.
I find the f80 annoyingly laggy/poor throttle response, so....

Certainly it's a different thing than the wait wait wait wait wait POWWWER turbo cars of the 80s/90s. But, that video (above) was about a 2017 991 911's turbo-- pretty current tech! The mechanism by which a turbo works creates throttle delay.
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      09-05-2016, 03:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I find the f80 annoyingly laggy/poor throttle response, so....

Certainly it's a different thing than the wait wait wait wait wait POWWWER turbo cars of the 80s/90s. But, that video (above) was about a 2017 991 911's turbo-- pretty current tech! The mechanism by which a turbo works creates throttle delay.
Again, agree if you are using throttle to spin everything. In the F80, in sport or sport+ (and not dropping revs below 3k) there was no discernable lag on the track. E46 m3 below 3k RPM's would have a larger apparent lag before the power as there wasn't any. Modern turbo cars like the F80 keep the turbo spinning in anticipation of the need for throttle and bleed off the pressure that they don't need. Coming out of a corner at 3k or greater RPMs in an F80 in second, the concern is grip, and throttle management, not lag.

Of course, all this is untrue in efficient mode.
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      09-05-2016, 08:31 PM   #30
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The f80/2 M3/4s I drove on track must have been broken, as they absolutely had lag.

The e46 had awesome throttle response at any RPM, including sub 3000. What it doesn't have is a ton of torque there. What it does have is an incredibly linear powerband, which, combined with the awesome throttle response, makes it easy to meter in the exact amount of power you want to the wheels.
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      09-06-2016, 01:03 PM   #31
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Gonna post this quote here too (source: here):
"The BMW M2 and M4 share some similar DNA, but they’re pretty different cars. The brand-new BMW M2 is much smaller, has less power and is slower than the BMW M4. It’s also around $10,000 cheaper to start. But that isn’t to say that the BMW M2 is the poor man’s BMW M4, because it isn’t. The BMW M2 makes 365 hp and gets from 0-60 in about 4.3 seconds, so that’s nothing to laugh at. The M2 is for an entirely different customer, one that would choose the M2 over the M4, regardless of money. That type of customer that grew up loving compact sportscars and to whom the sheer driving experience is at the top of the preferences list. That’s because “smaller, less powerful and slower” doesn’t tell the whole story. The M2 might be all of those things, but it’s also lighter than the M4, by anywhere from 55 to 200 lbs – depends who you ask – and more nimble, making it more fun on winding roads. It has sharper steering and a more tossable chassis. The BMW M2 is the car for people who prefer the E46 M3 to the F82 M4. It’s the car that old-school BMW enthusiasts have been begging BMW for, for what seems like an eternity now. The BMW M2 isn’t going to be cross-shopped with the M4, as it’s a vastly different car with a different focus for different customers. The M2 is inherently compromised in the name of fun and dynamics, as its ride is more uncomfortable and its cabin more cramped than the M4’s, but it’s most certainly more entertaining. So the BMW M2 is built for customers who value fun and excitement over outright performance. The same people who bought an E46 M3 back in the day are the same people who will buy the BMW M2. But that’s not to say that the BMW M4 is worse than the M2. It’s just different. [...] Maybe the M4 is a bit more disconnected than the M2, not giving its driver the genuine sense of feel and connection on the same level as its new younger brother. [...] So if you’re the kind of person who values grin-inducing fun over raw performance and are willing to sacrifice a bit of comfort and usability for it, then the BMW M2 is the car for you."
I subscribe to the "from E46 M3 to M2" reasoning.

If you liked driving an E46 M3 (forget for a moment the clunky SMGII tranny), you can't go wrong with the M2, notwithstanding the fact that it's a car from a different era with different engine layout.
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      09-09-2016, 12:15 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis
Gonna post this quote here too (source: here):
"The BMW M2 and M4 share some similar DNA, but they’re pretty different cars. The brand-new BMW M2 is much smaller, has less power and is slower than the BMW M4. It’s also around $10,000 cheaper to start. But that isn’t to say that the BMW M2 is the poor man’s BMW M4, because it isn’t. The BMW M2 makes 365 hp and gets from 0-60 in about 4.3 seconds, so that’s nothing to laugh at. The M2 is for an entirely different customer, one that would choose the M2 over the M4, regardless of money. That type of customer that grew up loving compact sportscars and to whom the sheer driving experience is at the top of the preferences list. That’s because “smaller, less powerful and slower” doesn’t tell the whole story. The M2 might be all of those things, but it’s also lighter than the M4, by anywhere from 55 to 200 lbs – depends who you ask – and more nimble, making it more fun on winding roads. It has sharper steering and a more tossable chassis. The BMW M2 is the car for people who prefer the E46 M3 to the F82 M4. It’s the car that old-school BMW enthusiasts have been begging BMW for, for what seems like an eternity now. The BMW M2 isn’t going to be cross-shopped with the M4, as it’s a vastly different car with a different focus for different customers. The M2 is inherently compromised in the name of fun and dynamics, as its ride is more uncomfortable and its cabin more cramped than the M4’s, but it’s most certainly more entertaining. So the BMW M2 is built for customers who value fun and excitement over outright performance. The same people who bought an E46 M3 back in the day are the same people who will buy the BMW M2. But that’s not to say that the BMW M4 is worse than the M2. It’s just different. [...] Maybe the M4 is a bit more disconnected than the M2, not giving its driver the genuine sense of feel and connection on the same level as its new younger brother. [...] So if you’re the kind of person who values grin-inducing fun over raw performance and are willing to sacrifice a bit of comfort and usability for it, then the BMW M2 is the car for you."
I subscribe to the "from E46 M3 to M2" reasoning.

If you liked driving an E46 M3 (forget for a moment the clunky SMGII tranny), you can't go wrong with the M2, notwithstanding the fact that it's a car from a different era with different engine layout.
Agreed! E46 M3 owner to M2 owner in a few more months!
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      09-12-2016, 03:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
Completely agree with you if this was the '90s. Much of this is mitigated now, above 3k RPMs there is no discernable delay in throttle. It isn't the F80's anti-lag, but it's close.

Also we are talking about the e46 M3 which had little to nothing under 3k RPM's, so I should have prefaced my answer with "above 3k RPMs for both cars".

I also should have noted that my e46 M3 had a ZHP steering rack, as they were much better.
My dad had a '07 Z4MC, which had the same engine as the E46 M3, and it always felt like it had plenty of low end grunt - but you didn't spend any time down there because the thing was such a joy to wring out.

Obviously it wasn't as fast as some FI models (like the M2), but it wasn't a slow car off the line either. It was just an engine that really rewarded you for higher RPMs. Loved that car.
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      10-11-2016, 12:44 PM   #34
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The M235i will handily outpace an E46 M3 CSL on track. The M2 just ladles on further gravy.
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      10-29-2016, 04:25 AM   #35
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N55 and lag: Still a turbo..
See picture 4 and peters's comment when scrolling down
http://www.bimmertoday.de/2009/07/15...ang-automatik/

Unfortunately the conditions (e.g. engine speed) to reach max. torque within 2.5 seconds was not stated. Anyway, official proof from BMW for turbo lag at least in the lower areas. Nowadays such graphs would never be off. published anymore..

Sorry is in German but graphs are speeking for themselves (base N55 with max. torque of 400Nm / stated when N55 was introduced in 2009)

Last edited by mmmpassion; 10-29-2016 at 04:32 AM..
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      10-29-2016, 11:41 PM   #36
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What one perceives as throttle response is composed of many things. Take a highly strung NA engine with torque starting to peak around 4k rpm and power peaking around 7.5k rpm.

You're at 2000 rpm and floor it. It feels like something is instantly happening, because you don't have as much intake dead space, turbo inertia etc. but nothing is happening unless you had the foresight to drop a gear or two and put the rpm into the engine's power band. If you didn't, you get nothing, nothing, and then gradually peaking acceleration.

Do the same thing in a modern turbo charged car, especially with a twin scroll turbo and you'll get nothing, then a swell of torque that pushes you along. If you had the foresight to drop a gear or two into the power band, you get effectively instant shove and you're off.

What I object to is this idea that it's ok for NA engines to have an (often small) optimum power band, but turbo charged cars can't. It's an unfair comparison. I've seen plenty of rolling drag races between NA and turbo cars. Typically, both cars being in their optimum power bands, and there is no difference in how both cars get going.

This 'lag' thing gets thrown around a lot but I think that it's important to be clear where and how there is lag. If you're in the wrong gear, it will take time for boost to build, just like in an NA car it will take time for RPM to build, no one calls that 'NA lag'. All things being equal, I'd take a 2000rpm 4th gear pull in an M2 vs an e92 M3 any day of the week.
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      11-29-2016, 07:32 AM   #37
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haven't driven the M2 but I can point out a few things about e46 M3.

Pros:
Classic M looks
Best 3 series interior ever (IMO)
Engine screams and pulls strong all the way to the redline and it feels and sounds good.
Steering on point.
Better rear headroom than M4

Cons.
no torque in low RPM. it gets smoked by soccer moms from light to light unless you make it scream. it's an S2000 with 4 seats.
bad MPG. not that bad but still horrible.
the known issues such as VANOS and rear subframe.
no easy/cheap way to make it go faster.

overall I miss the car and would love to have it again if I can find a clean low mileage example. Silver-gray over Imola red with MT.
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      04-17-2017, 03:35 AM   #38
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My new M2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I would expect the benefits to break down as follows, given equal tires but otherwise stock:
Acceleration: M2
stopping distance: tie
fade resistance: M2
torque: M2
throttle response: M3
steering feel: M3
short term reliability: M2 (warranty/new car FTW)
long term reliability: M3 (turbos FTL)
Interior quality vs a nice e46: M3
interior quality vs a typical e46: M2
back seat space: M3
differential's ability to put power down: M2
superior powerband: depends on owner's taste
gauges: M3
ease of servicing/modding: M3
interior engine sound: M3
exterior exhaust note: M2
properly centered driver's seat: M3
stock vs stock lap times with professional driver: M2
real world tracked car lap times: driver/mod based
gadgets/gizmos/driver assists: M2
looks: M3 (subjective, technically... but I don't think anyone's going to disagree)
I wanted to introduce my new M2 F87. I also print my old M3 E46, just to stay in internet for eternity.
Basically I agree with Obioban opinion except for the sentence “properly centered driver's seat: M3”, which I do not notice. To me the seat is perfectly centered.
To me the M2 F87 feels stronger and more reliable. It is a great sport car.
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      04-17-2017, 06:24 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Kind of.

One of the defining parts of the experience in the e46 M3 is the high revving, high hp, low torque , instantaneous throttle response engine-- completely different in character than the M2's engine.
true. but not sure about the DCT M2s, but that diff ratio is high! i'm like rolling nearly 3k at 70mph in 6th gear.

the car wants to you be above 3500rpm.

its gonna be hard staying below 5000rpm during break-in. and my gas mileage thus far, is pretty crappy.
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      04-17-2017, 06:29 AM   #40
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Good thread and responses.

I've driven several E46 M3s in the canyons and on the streets, and also had my friend who owns an E46 M3 drive my M2.

Both of us agreed, M2 feels like a modern version of the E46 M3. Both are truly great cars.

I cross shopped E46 M3s with the M2 as well, and while it would be nice to own one, I find that the M2 is faster, feels more planted/solid, and also with the modern technology much more convenient as a DD.
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      04-17-2017, 07:42 AM   #41
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The best cars I ever had were an ' 99 Impreza GTTurbo , '02 M3 6MT and my former 1M.

I always said an Impreza mating with an E46M3 you get a 1M more or less.
An M2 is 1M s younger more modern brother imho.

E46 M3 beautiful car but irl or dd the power/delivery is a bit low nowadays ....



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      01-15-2018, 10:38 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxa121 View Post
Here it is:

The M2 will be unquestionably quicker, faster, and brutish compared to an E46M. Did I mention nicer cabin and more technology? I believe it sounds better too.

Tough call.

Then you rip it to 8k with that S54 and logic goes out the window! Rasp or not, it is addicting. I still plan to own one sometime in the future, but as a second/third car - not a daily.
my e46 sounded better(i can link a few youtube videos if you want) than any m2 and tbh was just as fast if not faster.<- judging this by fact that it would beat both e92 m3 and a lightly modded n54 335i. also i disagree about the interior. the e46 would come with nice soft leather while m2 has basic bmw leather. of course stock for stock the m2 is overall better but it costs too much for what it is.
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      01-16-2018, 08:45 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
looks: M3 (subjective, technically... but I don't think anyone's going to disagree)
I disagree 100%.

M2 has E46M beat by miles on the exterior styling. I owned E46m and now own an M2. I love the E46M, a big fan of the car but M2 looks better IMO.

I have some pictures of my M2 and my friend's E46M parked side by side and my friend also agrees that the M2 looks better. Hopefully I can find the pictures and post them up here for a comparison soon.

Overall, after owning both cars, my choice is the M2 over the E46M by a big margin.
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      01-16-2018, 08:52 AM   #44
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Here are a few. E46M looks great but next to the M2, it almost looks like a normal E46 3 series next to the M2. Much more so in person.
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