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      06-13-2017, 05:47 PM   #67
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Had my first proper AutoX this weekend past with the new MP suspension bits added putting me into STU, combined with 18" wheels shod with RE-71Rs and the grip was pretty insane compared to the Contis. The RE-71R has a sharper edge at the limit but still quite easy to recover if you get over-ambitious.

More mods planned to prepare fully for the rules in STU but we already had 5 seconds on our nearest competitor in an admittedly light class.

All I know is that my face hurt from smiling so much during and after competition!
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      06-13-2017, 07:25 PM   #68
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I am running BS class with MPSS tires. I am not doing well against a Focus RS and S2000 on RE71's. I have dialed in the tire pressure at 34psi hot. If I push too hard i plow thru corners and scrub speed the wrong way, too late. I run Sport+ and tried all nannies off on one run and spun out on a 90 to 100 degree off camber turn. The braking on the inside in those situations when in Sport+ is a real help on tight turns. The DSC will cut power if the yaw sensor senses you are getting out of control. I am getting better at finding this fine line. When I get it right I will improve my time and the car feels balanced, smooth and fast. That said these other guys are beating me. I am assuming it is a driver problem, I have only been autoX'ing for two years but am interested in what others think and some tips.

One thought is to just run with all of the nannies off and feel the car. It might be ugly at first by I will get used to it and correct.

Another thought is install KWv3's and some other goodies but the penalty in STU is large.

Again appreciate any comments.
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      06-14-2017, 06:14 AM   #69
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Yes, absolutely. The ONLY way to drive the car is with DSC fully off. Otherwise you losing the ability to put power down when/where you need it, but also, just as importantly, with DSC engaged in any mode the car is teaching you very poor habits as a driver since it is constantly doing one-wheel braking, etc, as it tries to guess what is needed. This is one reason why many people who don't really have a lot of good experience at driving a powerful car immediately crash when they turn off DSC since they have built driving skills based on the car constantly trying to correct poor habits.

You have to drive the "real car" and develop the skills necessary to properly manage the throttle. Especially in autocross, throttle control is extremely important both adding it and reducing it to control weight transfer in order to keep the front and rear contact patches right near/at their peak tractive force limits as much as possible.

I would suggest doing the Phase 1 and Phase 2 Evo school. The events are very well run, and you'll learn an enormous amount. Instead of cementing bad habits with practice, you can learn good habits and then practice them from now on.

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      06-14-2017, 02:38 PM   #70
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Chuck, Thank you! I looked at the info on the Evo site and will be taking a course in July. I also read most of the articles and they were very helpful.
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      06-14-2017, 03:25 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvndvs View Post
Chuck, Thank you! I looked at the info on the Evo site and will be taking a course in July. I also read most of the articles and they were very helpful.
You won't regret it, promise!

It's a oldie but still very useful: Andy Hollis' ten tips for autocross.

I had already been autocrossing for more than 30 years when I took some Evo schools and their Extreme school more than 10 years back now. What a wonderful experience, and working with Mike (Junior) Johnson was really enlightening. Swapping back and forth with me driving and then him in my E39 M5 was a fantastic experience. I went from typically top 10-15 place PAXing to sometimes overall PAX FTD but always in the top 10 locally afterward in my old E46 and then later on in my E90 M3 in F-street.
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      06-15-2017, 07:24 AM   #72
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CSBM5 with DSC fully turned off the throttle is not as responsive in sport +. However, so that is the case that the ECU will pull power even in Sport + if it detects a loss in traction?

Coming out of a fast corner I was going flat out once the car straightened up enough but it felt like power was being pulled. I mean normally flat out the torque feels very strong, it felt kind of gutless. Is this DSC pulling power? I'm going to have to try next event with DSC fully disengaged
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      06-15-2017, 07:45 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr 2 View Post
CSBM5 with DSC fully turned off the throttle is not as responsive in sport +. However, so that is the case that the ECU will pull power even in Sport + if it detects a loss in traction?

Coming out of a fast corner I was going flat out once the car straightened up enough but it felt like power was being pulled. I mean normally flat out the torque feels very strong, it felt kind of gutless. Is this DSC pulling power? I'm going to have to try next event with DSC fully disengaged
Yes, DSC will ALWAYS take away major power when you're trying to extract maximum performance from the car. It's goal is *not* to allow the car to be driven near/at its limits; the goal of DSC is to run a preprogrammed algorithm that attempts to guess what the car and driver are doing and actuate brakes and remove power to maintain yaw velocity and yaw acceleration within the predetermined parameters of the computer algorithm.

Speaking of throttle response...I always have students place their car in the least responsive mode since that allows the most precise control over the throttle which is a very strong component of the ability to control weight transfer. When you're right near the limits in a long sweeper, for example, controlling the direction (overall slip angle) of the car is almost totally a function of throttle position (or should be). A jumpy throttle creates large changes in weight transfer with very little driver input which is the opposite of what's required (and can easily result in "losing it" with a very powerful car too).
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      06-15-2017, 08:42 AM   #74
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Agreed - I run my E46 in standard throttle because sport is way too sensitive for throttle control in auto-x.

I find the Sport+ to be slightly too sensitive in the M2, while Sport is slightly too numb...somewhere in between would be ideal. That said - Sport+ and even MDM are absolutely pulling power without you realizing, and the car will not open up unless DSC is fully off.
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      06-15-2017, 02:19 PM   #75
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We experimented with Sport+ vs. Comfort>DSC off (long press to deactivate). In doing so we found that with DSC fully deactivated, the car was fairly easy to control in rotation and power delivery without intervention from the DSC at the last AutoX. A rear facing GoPro captured pretty sounds from the exhaust but more importantly documented several double ribbons of RE-71R rubber being painted on the tarmac as we went.

Lower (or more linear) throttle sensitivity=easier modulation; exactly what we wanted in a car that can make things happen at a high rate of knots when you are making it dance at the limit.
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      06-29-2017, 08:19 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLH View Post
Don't hold your breath waiting for it to be classed, or classed competitively. The SEB is understandably extremely cautious/conservative about the classing of limited-production cars, especially when they have differences that could translate into a significant performance advantage. The biggest thing I'm aware of with the ZL9 that would lead them to be very conservative is the inclusion of the adjustable coilover setup.

Until it's officially classed you're in SS, and I somewhat expect it will either not get specifically classed at all, or get left in SS for good to bury it.
They're a bunch of clowns, The E90/92 M3,the S550 Mustang GT, Camaro SS are in FS but they're having a hard time determining what class the M2 should be in.

The previous Mustang GT weighs around 3,650lbs with 412hp, it's in FS, the M4 3,650lbs, 435hp, it's in AS.
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      06-29-2017, 10:08 AM   #77
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Quote:
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They're a bunch of clowns, The E90/92 M3,the S550 Mustang GT, Camaro SS are in FS but they're having a hard time determining what class the M2 should be in.

The previous Mustang GT weighs around 3,650lbs with 412hp, it's in FS, the M4 3,650lbs, 435hp, it's in AS.
FWIW they put the factory M2 in BS and the PE (I've been driving a PE) in AS. I have been driving it bone stock and haven't had the chance or motivation to buy new wheels and tires, but will report back on how I do in AS...RE71R's are sold out until August.

It's going to be a tough battle with the C6 Z06 and M4. M4 isn't really competitive but it absolutely wops the M2 in power. Lol.
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      06-29-2017, 10:30 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkysTheLimit View Post
FWIW they put the factory M2 in BS and the PE (I've been driving a PE) in AS. I have been driving it bone stock and haven't had the chance or motivation to buy new wheels and tires, but will report back on how I do in AS...RE71R's are sold out until August.

It's going to be a tough battle with the C6 Z06 and M4. M4 isn't really competitive but it absolutely wops the M2 in power. Lol.
I've just ordered a set that shipped out yesterday 265's/285's...255's/275's are also available.

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      06-29-2017, 12:36 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anglo View Post
I've just ordered a set that shipped out yesterday 265's/285's...255's/275's are also available.

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to stick to 18's, which seem to be on backorder.

You went with M3/4 sizes? Manual or DCT?

I was looking to go wider in width and take advantage of some slight downsizing in the sidewall. MT here.
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      06-29-2017, 07:07 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkysTheLimit View Post
Thanks for the info. I'm trying to stick to 18's, which seem to be on backorder.

You went with M3/4 sizes? Manual or DCT?

I was looking to go wider in width and take advantage of some slight downsizing in the sidewall. MT here.
RE-71R's in most popular 18 sizes are available. I have a DCT M4.
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      06-29-2017, 08:14 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
You won't regret it, promise!

It's a oldie but still very useful: Andy Hollis' ten tips for autocross.

I had already been autocrossing for more than 30 years when I took some Evo schools and their Extreme school more than 10 years back now. What a wonderful experience, and working with Mike (Junior) Johnson was really enlightening. Swapping back and forth with me driving and then him in my E39 M5 was a fantastic experience. I went from typically top 10-15 place PAXing to sometimes overall PAX FTD but always in the top 10 locally afterward in my old E46 and then later on in my E90 M3 in F-street.

I ran this weekend with all the nannies off, loved the car with no interference. I was throttle steering a bit to correct and balance any under steer. I have more to learn but the car was very balanced. It took me a while to turn all of the nannies off on my 135i also but once I did I was happy I did and
it was easy to control the car. The suspension on the M2 is so much stiffer than the 135i, you can really feel the difference. I am going to the EVO class on a Saturday and the next day is a scheduled AutoX. I hope I have enough tires left for Sunday.
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      06-29-2017, 08:21 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkysTheLimit View Post
FWIW they put the factory M2 in BS and the PE (I've been driving a PE) in AS. I have been driving it bone stock and haven't had the chance or motivation to buy new wheels and tires, but will report back on how I do in AS...RE71R's are sold out until August.

It's going to be a tough battle with the C6 Z06 and M4. M4 isn't really competitive but it absolutely wops the M2 in power. Lol.
I am very competitive with the C5 Z06 in BS, one thing I don't get is the focus RS is in BS, shouldn't that be with the WRX/STI crowd being AWD? Fast car and I have seen it on three wheels on the AutoX course several times.
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      07-10-2017, 11:02 PM   #83
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At last month's ax I noticed a few folks spraying water on their tires between runs to help cool them down. Does this really work?

When looking at the TPMS info my tires only increased in pressure from 35 to 37 and most were ~97°F, the left front was the hottest at 113°F.
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      07-12-2017, 02:48 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
At last month's ax I noticed a few folks spraying water on their tires between runs to help cool them down. Does this really work?

When looking at the TPMS info my tires only increased in pressure from 35 to 37 and most were ~97°F, the left front was the hottest at 113°F.
I'm one of the sprayers;

I do codrive the cars and would notice rapidly decreasing amounts of grip/increased wear when running the tires overheated. It all depends on your driving style, braking zones, course surface, ambient temperature, and elapsed time between runs...there are many variables.

There's not much loss to trying it if you think it will help. Pick up a $5 sprayer from Walmart and bring it along next event.

If you are spraying to cool and the tires do not need it, then you would be decreasing the temperature to the point where the tires need to warm again - which would be counterproductive. AX tires have an optimal temperature point where they are stickiest.
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      07-17-2017, 08:19 AM   #85
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I took the EVO class, 1st level. Great instruction and seriously qualified instructors. I could not do the class and then our local event the next day but plan in catching about 6 more AutoX events this year and putting this new info to work.
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      08-09-2017, 01:48 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLH View Post
By the letter of the rules only a "complete" ZL9-package car would classify for AS. If you just take a regular M2 and put on the MP coilovers you'd got to STU.

To put a regular M2 into AS you would need to do a complete package conversion, with exceptions for "comfort and convenience" items. I'm not sure why you'd want to do that though...
Has the SEB specifically stated that adding the MPE Coilovers will put the M2 into STU? I ask b/c the exhaust is cat back and wouldn't move us out of BS which leaves the seats and air conditioner controls that are "comfort and convenience" items, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by autoxtoomuch View Post
First post, long time lurker.

Are you talking about a new rule?

Port installed options are legal in Street. This is what caused the FRS/BRZ dilemma with the TRD option suspension. Same with the protested Mini in STX with a boost altering option (I heard at least).

Section 12: "An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been ordered with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered through a dealer in the United States. Port-installed options provided by the manufacturer are considered to be the same as those installed on the factory production line. Dealer-installed options or deletions (except as required by factory directives), no matter how common or what their origin, are not included in this definition. This definition does not allow the updating or backdating of parts."

As the rule is currently written, any/all port installed options are considered standard parts and are therefore legal in Street regardless of their performance impact. If the coilovers were port installed (I think they are dealer installed), they would be legal.

This specific rule is an advantage imported vehicles have over domestics.
If this is correct then why is the ZCP in AS and why would a non-ZCP bump out of BS or if bumped why not to AS?
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      08-10-2017, 08:33 PM   #87
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Seats are not comfort and convenience. If they were part of the ZCP package which puts the car in AS along with coilover suspension and whatever other bits, you'd need to have all those bits included. Cat back exhaust does not put you out of BS/AS. For a real run at STU, you'd have to put your car on a serious diet. I personally think a M2 can be competitive in BS even with limited camber, and with higher COG. Those folks looking solely at hp and weight really aren't getting it. The SAC looks at width, length, suspension, and consider real world limitations or benefits such as gearing, ability to overcome nannies etc.
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      08-12-2017, 08:24 AM   #88
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