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      01-24-2014, 08:09 AM   #221
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I would also prefer the I6 over a 4cyl engine but it sounds like they want the car to have the lighter 4cyl engine.How much of a weight saving would there be with the 4cyl engine?
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      01-24-2014, 08:18 AM   #222
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AMG already have a 4c with over 350hp and Audi S3 is rumor to produce another tune 4c with 360ish hp (words on the streets). BMW will follow this trend, I bet my ass on it lol
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      01-24-2014, 10:46 AM   #223
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well Audi must have gotten wind of BMW wanting to make the best i4 car out there and since their RS3 will be a 5 cyl they decided to make the S3PLUS

if it seriously gets 375 hP and ~365 torque with that low weight and since its AUDI it will have AWD, that is going to be a mad performance car. Don't think the M2 will be able to compete with it or the RS3. If the M2 gets that same HP and torque it is going to be stealing sales from the M4 for sure. Who wouldn't want to save $15K and have similar performance? I figured the M2 would get 350 HP and 340 torque. I guess they can sell it as the only true COUPE with that much power...
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      01-24-2014, 11:06 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
well Audi must have gotten wind of BMW wanting to make the best i4 car out there and since their RS3 will be a 5 cyl they decided to make the S3PLUS

if it seriously gets 375 hP and ~365 torque with that low weight and since its AUDI it will have AWD, that is going to be a mad performance car. Don't think the M2 will be able to compete with it or the RS3. If the M2 gets that same HP and torque it is going to be stealing sales from the M4 for sure. Who wouldn't want to save $15K and have similar performance? I figured the M2 would get 350 HP and 340 torque. I guess they can sell it as the only true COUPE with that much power...
Audi and BMW chase different buyers in the same market. Audi makes AWD cars that are typically heavier than their BMW counter parts and don't handle the same way. Read/watch any review comparing a comparable Audi and a BMW M-car, and you'll notice that the remarks all center around the difference in character, dismissing the performance differences as marginal. There are buyers for both types of cars, but they're different. The M2 needn't outperform the RS3 in all aspects, it only needs to deliver the type of driving experience that M-buyers want.
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      01-24-2014, 03:27 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
AMG already have a 4c with over 350hp and Audi S3 is rumor to produce another tune 4c with 360ish hp (words on the streets). BMW will follow this trend, I bet my ass on it lol
True, but it will be interesting to see how they will minimize the lag that is present in those other cars. Maybe they will bump up the displacement to 2.2-2.5L or use that pulse charging technology to keep the turbo spooled.
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      01-24-2014, 05:18 PM   #226
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Does anyone happen to know the official weight figures for the N54, N55, and N20? Plenty of reviewers have remarked that the 328i has better balance and handling because of two factors 1) the N20 is lighter than the N55, and 2) the N20 is shorter, thus putting the weight further back in the vehicle, and closer to the center resulting in a lower polar moment of inertia.
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      01-24-2014, 05:39 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmcclane View Post
Since Scott was talking about a 4cyl. engine which could be used in the X1M AND the M2 I'm confused about how this is possible?! So far I know you can't use a transverse mounted engine in the front made for FWD also for RWD, or change it (easy) to RWD setup. - please correct me if I'm wrong.
Engines can change from being transversely mounted to longitudinally mounted, its the transmissions that have to change. Even with those, they are the same technology and concepts but just packaged differently.

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      01-24-2014, 09:02 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post


Cheers
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But then how do we get the weight reduction? And if it is established.... won't they just put it into the M4 instead of the M2? You get my point right? Or would that mean we'd have to solve the V8 weight problem so that the M4 would get the V8 and then the M2 would get the I6?
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      01-25-2014, 12:41 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Seagull View Post
But then how do we get the weight reduction? And if it is established.... won't they just put it into the M4 instead of the M2? You get my point right? Or would that mean we'd have to solve the V8 weight problem so that the M4 would get the V8 and then the M2 would get the I6?
I think, if an F80 M3 has a weight reduction compared to an F30 335i, so can an I6 M2 compared to a M235i.

I only see the M2 getting a 4 instead of a 6 cylinder engine as marketing, it will be the smallest M car in the lineup so just a 4 cylinder engine. And performancewise an I6 could destroy the M3/M4.

We all know too, BMW is getting greener and greener because of governmental and political lies.. er...treaties (that's not BMWs fault to begin with, they are forced just like the other manufacturers, but I don't like it at all) so a small 4 pot 'more mpg' car can come in very handy as well

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      01-25-2014, 07:46 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
I think, if an F80 M3 has a weight reduction compared to an F30 335i, so can an I6 M2 compared to a M235i.

I only see the M2 getting a 4 instead of a 6 cylinder engine as marketing, it will be the smallest M car in the lineup so just a 4 cylinder engine. And performancewise an I6 could destroy the M3/M4.

We all know too, BMW is getting greener and greener because of governmental and political lies.. er...treaties (that's not BMWs fault to begin with, they are forced just like the other manufacturers, but I don't like it at all) so a small 4 pot 'more mpg' car can come in very handy as well

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+1 on the marketing - an I4 in the M2 makes the line up for M nice and neat.

As long as the damn thing drives like we all want it to, I don't care what they put in it to be honest.
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      01-25-2014, 02:23 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
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Originally Posted by Mako View Post
well Audi must have gotten wind of BMW wanting to make the best i4 car out there and since their RS3 will be a 5 cyl they decided to make the S3PLUS

if it seriously gets 375 hP and ~365 torque with that low weight and since its AUDI it will have AWD, that is going to be a mad performance car. Don't think the M2 will be able to compete with it or the RS3. If the M2 gets that same HP and torque it is going to be stealing sales from the M4 for sure. Who wouldn't want to save $15K and have similar performance? I figured the M2 would get 350 HP and 340 torque. I guess they can sell it as the only true COUPE with that much power...
Audi and BMW chase different buyers in the same market. Audi makes AWD cars that are typically heavier than their BMW counter parts and don't handle the same way. Read/watch any review comparing a comparable Audi and a BMW M-car, and you'll notice that the remarks all center around the difference in character, dismissing the performance differences as marginal. There are buyers for both types of cars, but they're different. The M2 needn't outperform the RS3 in all aspects, it only needs to deliver the type of driving experience that M-buyers want.
exaaaactly. look at the 1M and the TT-RS. 1M was 335 hp and the RS 360hp. it's not a direct competition at all------totally different audience and expectations
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      01-25-2014, 04:29 PM   #232
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It won't drive like an M car
You can't defeat physics, a 4 pot with the required boost to produce the required 350 plus HP will drive like shit, have crap throttle response and horrible turbo lag.. Go drive the CLA 45 for a preview of what BMW is making us wait two years for .. No thanks, I have moved on .. F the M2
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      01-25-2014, 04:46 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
It won't drive like an M car
You can't defeat physics, a 4 pot with the required boost to produce the required 350 plus HP will drive like shit, have crap throttle response and horrible turbo lag.. Go drive the CLA 45 for a preview of what BMW is making us wait two years for .. No thanks, I have moved on .. F the M2
You completely missed the point.
BMW M knows exactly how the CLA drives as I have posted my own impressions after a long drive.
So they are not going to make the same mistake.
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      01-25-2014, 04:56 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
It won't drive like an M car
You can't defeat physics, a 4 pot with the required boost to produce the required 350 plus HP will drive like shit, have crap throttle response and horrible turbo lag.. Go drive the CLA 45 for a preview of what BMW is making us wait two years for .. No thanks, I have moved on .. F the M2
You completely missed the point.
BMW M knows exactly how the CLA drives as I have posted my own impressions after a long drive.
So they are not going to make the same mistake.
With all due respect Scott, BMW is not immune from the laws of physics.

There is only so much that can be done with 2 liters and 4 cylinders. I don't believe in magic. You may be able to produce the power, but you will never produce the drivability, throttle response nor will you ever overcome the hideous turbo lag of said tiny 2 liter engine. Let's not even talk sound ...
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      01-25-2014, 05:03 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
It won't drive like an M car
You can't defeat physics, a 4 pot with the required boost to produce the required 350 plus HP will drive like shit, have crap throttle response and horrible turbo lag.. Go drive the CLA 45 for a preview of what BMW is making us wait two years for .. No thanks, I have moved on .. F the M2
You completely missed the point.
BMW M knows exactly how the CLA drives as I have posted my own impressions after a long drive.
So they are not going to make the same mistake.
Just out of curiosity, was the poll we made even considered? Does BMW not care? Do they think they know what their customers want more than their customers themselves? Or does their market research differ from our poll? Or do they simply not care anymore?
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      01-25-2014, 05:52 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
With all due respect Scott, BMW is not immune from the laws of physics.

There is only so much that can be done with 2 liters and 4 cylinders. I don't believe in magic. You may be able to produce the power, but you will never produce the drivability, throttle response nor will you ever overcome the hideous turbo lag of said tiny 2 liter engine. Let's not even talk sound ...
Looks like you have to agree to disagree with Scott, because it sounds like this is exactly what they will try to do - despite the skeptics. If they do, then its a severe coup over their competition. If not it will be a failed experiment.

How many of the check boxes for engine characteristics will the hit, miss or exceed and by how much only time ( 2 years ) will tell. And of that score sheet, only time will tell what the Masses accept.
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      01-25-2014, 09:43 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmcclane View Post
Since Scott was talking about a 4cyl. engine which could be used in the X1M AND the M2 I'm confused about how this is possible?! So far I know you can't use a transverse mounted engine in the front made for FWD also for RWD, or change it (easy) to RWD setup. - please correct me if I'm wrong.
It's not the exact same engine, but VW/Audi did this for a long time back when they 1.8T was new. Audi Quattro cars had an inline-mounted version of the 1.8T that was transversely mounted in all FWD VW and Audi cars. It wasn't the same exact engine, but it was very similar. They might still do this today with the 2.0T, but I don't know. I know that Audi has Quattro systems that work with transverse mounted engines now days.

It does mean additional development costs, but it's cheaper than developing two completely different engines.
Wrong. 1.8t is not transverse on all FWD VWs. Not that it really matters...
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      01-26-2014, 12:05 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
I believe scott over an old article too.....but can't help but feel disappointed at the 4 banger choice. Also in the news today was that Audi is developing a 375hp 4 banger....so the M2 ain't all that special already *sigh*

make an M2 with an inline 6 and I'd gladly put a deposit down to order one.
This. I want torque along with the chassis and suspension that comes with a true M car. What's the use of making an M car with a great suspension and LSD without having the torque to enjoy what that recipe does?


IMO, there are only two uses for a 4 cyl in a RWD platform:
  • Fuel economy
  • Weight/money savings with the result of gutless performance.

For the M235i in US: "Weight distribution, front/rear – Manual Transmission 51.9/48.1%" - That's good enough for a street car for me. Yes, the 228 is 50/50%, it's only 45 lbs lighter. Maybe the M2 will come with manual seats, less sound deadening and drop that front ratio down by .25% - maybe a thinner bonnet, etc.

I sound like a muscle car enthusiast, but color me stereotypical if I simply don't enjoy cars with small power plants.

Last edited by bitcore; 01-26-2014 at 12:11 PM..
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      01-26-2014, 12:30 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitcore View Post
This. I want torque along with the chassis and suspension that comes with a true M car. What's the use of making an M car with a great suspension and LSD without having the torque to enjoy what that recipe does?


IMO, there are only two uses for a 4 cyl in a RWD platform:
  • Fuel economy
  • Weight/money savings with the result of gutless performance.

For the M235i in US: "Weight distribution, front/rear – Manual Transmission 51.9/48.1%" - That's good enough for a street car for me. Yes, the 228 is 50/50%, it's only 45 lbs lighter. Maybe the M2 will come with manual seats, less sound deadening and drop that front ratio down by .25% - maybe a thinner bonnet, etc.

I sound like a muscle car enthusiast, but color me stereotypical if I simply don't enjoy cars with small power plants.
Where do you get the 45lbs lighter? 228 is 3,260 vs 3,505 for the M235 which is 245 lbs and is significant.
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      01-26-2014, 01:27 PM   #240
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You completely missed the point.
BMW M knows exactly how the CLA drives as I have posted my own impressions after a long drive.
So they are not going to make the same mistake.
Scott----with all due respect....nobody can really change the fact that a boosted 4-cylinder is GOING to have turbo lag....it will still feel like a 4-cylinder, and it's an entirely different experience. No matter how much M try, they can't change the basics of turbo'd 4 cylinders----especially if they are trying to get big power out of it. Sadly a 4-cylinder M2 will be a very interesting car, but nothing out of the ordinary as Merc and Audi are both in the realm of high power 4-cylinders already. BMW is sort of late to the game.....

I'd say Audi is currently the most unique with that 5-pot turbo. That is one hell of an engine.....and from everything i know, Audi is planning to INCREASE the 5-cylinder usage in their lineup. That's properly exciting news for enthusiasts....
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      01-26-2014, 01:56 PM   #241
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Bmw is late but if they can put out a 360hp 4C with rwd and great handling...hmmm
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      01-26-2014, 05:07 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
I believe scott over an old article too.....but can't help but feel disappointed at the 4 banger choice. Also in the news today was that Audi is developing a 375hp 4 banger....so the M2 ain't all that special already *sigh*

make an M2 with an inline 6 and I'd gladly put a deposit down to order one.
The Audi is numbers , that's prolonging the horsepower game . BMW have advanced from horsepower. For M its about absolute precision through weight reduction. Audi can focus on the numbers because VAG is all about numbers which is a substitute for ego. That is why you remember the BMW 1er M Coupe over the Audi RS3.

BMW M. Have a new philosophy and a new understanding of extensive engineering and weight reduction in an entirely cost effective direction.
The six cylinder in the M3 and M4 conforms to weight reduction as does the M2 with a four cylinder.
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