[JustChris]

Guys, could you maybe agree to disagree in this instance. After a certain number of posts it starts to look tit-for-tat. Good to see the passion though.

Lets all and move on perhaps.....

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by Chris10Bimmers

Guys, could you maybe agree to disagree in this instance. After a certain number of posts it starts to look tit-for-tat. Good to see the passion though.

Lets all and move on perhaps.....

That guy is a grade-a asshole. But sure, why not.

Discovered by the Germans in 1904, they named it San Diego, which of course in German means a whale's vagina.

No, there's no way that's correct.

I'm sorry, I was trying to impress you. I don't know what it means. I'll be honest, I don't think anyone knows what it means anymore. Scholars maintain that the translation was lost hundreds of years ago.

Doesn't it mean Saint Diego?

No. No.

No, that's - that's what it means. Really.

Agree to disagree.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Show me one example of a country/state/etc. that has prosecuted for false advertising where a company provided MORE (of a good thing) than what they advertised..

Some countries (Belgium for one) have much higher tax rates on cars above a certain amount of horsepower, so underrating a car could be seen as tax avoidance, and WOULD be an issue with governments.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by mofomat

Some countries (Belgium for one) have much higher tax rates on cars above a certain amount of horsepower, so underrating a car could be seen as tax avoidance, and WOULD be an issue with governments.

Well, you've got me there.

[allthatisntnow]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Show me one example of a country/state/etc. that has prosecuted for false advertising where a company provided MORE (of a good thing) than what they advertised.

It has nothing to do with emissions. If the underrated engine meets emissions standards, it makes exactly zero difference if it was underrated or not.

You must be kidding me:

Plaintiff: Judge, I'm suing for false advertising! This car makes 50 MORE HP than they said it does!

Judge: And in what way were you harmed?

Plaintiff: Ummm...I was forced to control my right foot?

You'd be laughed out of the courtroom. BMW is hardly the first, and surely not the last, to underrate HP, sometimes significantly.

Don't act like legal ramifications are, or have ever been, some source of deterrent or evidence that such behavior doesn't already exist.

Fact of the matter is, they don’t make engines that produce 50 + more horsepower than they claim. Its exactly what I'm saying. It hasn't happened, because it doesn't happen. They don't underestimate their engines to some ridiculous BMW fan-fic degree. VW cocked up with lies over figures relating to how their vehicles performed (altering the state of tune to reduce emissions for testing does have an effect on power output) and its bitten them in the arse because people feel betrayed despite having a vehicle that performed better in day to day driving when not in emissions test mode. No one cares about the emissions, yet thats what they're pinning it on probably in pursuit of compensation. Not saying i agree with that either. I wouldn't complain.

Back to point, Jaguar landrover don’t seem to go around knocking 50 or so horsepower off to get their figures.

Project 7:

Skip to 8 minutes if you don’t want to sit through the explanation of how he’d be semi-informed on the matter.. Shock horror. Its underrated. By around 2%

The M235i dynos stock in the region of 290whp (depending on which chassis dyno is used - the more accurate ones tend to be the most conservative). That seems to fit in pretty well with the claims of 326hp +- 5% either way at the crank and a 15% drivetrain loss.

Im not claiming their figures are spot on, but you’d be looking at max 20hp over claimed at the crank on a m235i.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Arcanum-UK]

Originally Posted by Chris10Bimmers

Guys, could you maybe agree to disagree in this instance. After a certain number of posts it starts to look tit-for-tat. Good to see the passion though.

Lets all and move on perhaps.....

Yeah, fair enough. He's a wanker, but as that that isn't going to change it's not worth spending time rebutting all the incorrect points in his last post. We'll never agree.

[allthatisntnow]

Originally Posted by Arcanum-UK

Yeah, fair enough. He's a wanker, but as that that isn't going to change it's not worth spending time rebutting all the incorrect points in his last post. We'll never agree.

Yeah I'm out too. Ive played enough of a part in destroying the OPs thread. Sorry!

Which, back on topic, id be surprised if the M2 turbo was massively different from the m235i's. The M235i still has some headroom as evidenced by people going FBO and JB4. Although longevity would suggest they look to do at least some upgrading. At best id think it would be the same housing with a slightly larger compressor. It'll still be more than tuneable and no doubt pure will offer their turbo upgrades for it. Cant see them needing much modding to work.

[Destroya]

Haha, amusing. Reminds me of two guys who beat each other to a pulp over some minor disagreement and then, all torn up and bloody, celebrate with a beer because they now have something in common!

[PrematureApex]

RE: They don't under-rate.

That's just not true.

BMW has under-rated the S55 and the B58 pretty significantly. Much more so than any of their past engines. Not sure why they decided to...but they have.

http://www.***********.com/content.p...a-Stage-I-tune

Using BMS's dyno as the constant...

A stock N54, for example is putting down 265 or 270whp stock (300 BHP rating). Whereas the S55 is putting down it's rated BHP to the wheels. The B58 on that dyno? 330 whp...

So BMW has, in fact, grossly under rated it's recent turbo engines.

If the same holds true for the M2 mill, we're looking at a bigger turbo for sure.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by ///Jason

Agreed, BMW are notorious for underselling HP. The figure is usually 12% - 14% out so expect 410 HP at crank. After my run in period I'm going to be straight on the dyno to find out for sure.

Some people now say they are not overrated but it's correction factors on dyno's increasing these numbers. My M3 for instance made 427whp stock and 495 with jb4 map2 and downpipes on a corrected dynojet. Not corrected would have been much less...

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Some people now say they are not overrated but it's correction factors on dyno's increasing these numbers. My M3 for instance made 427whp stock and 495 with jb4 map2 and downpipes on a corrected dynojet. Not corrected would have been much less...

Again, we have seen all of their recent motors tested on the same dynos, using the same correction factors. BMS for example.

We see an N54 or N55 losing 10-15% to the wheels, as you'd expect. However, the S55 and B58, on the same dyno, are putting down close to their rated numbers.

The performance data also shows the same thing. BMW is under-rating its most recent crop of engines, for some reason.

[chambolle]

Holy crap, give it a rest! Did I take a wrong turn and land in facebook?

[///Jason]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

The performance data also shows the same thing. BMW is under-rating its most recent crop of engines, for some reason.

It could be to do with the media? The M2, A45 & RS3 all have similar stated HP but then by the M2 actually having more it can have an edge over its rivals in reviews ect?

Although how they get away with underselling it is beyond me. It also reminds me of how 0-60 times are usually quite modest with the likes of Porsche ect.

[135iDCT]

i think it will put down 370 - 380 whp
fbo + meth near 500 whp

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Again, link to this info?

The idiot who said it was a twin turbo is not a source for info that the turbo is different than the 235. That's horrible logic.

Again, I think it's bigger, as the 235 doesn't have a ton of headroom left in it.

That being said, the 1M had the same snails...so it's not below M to leave something like that the same if it works.

I would cite the development timeline on the 1M as the reason for its shared drivetrain... that and the fact that the N54 was originally developed for ///M duty.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by allthatisntnow

Fact of the matter is, they don’t make engines that produce 50 + more horsepower than they claim. Its exactly what I'm saying. It hasn't happened, because it doesn't happen. They don't underestimate their engines to some ridiculous BMW fan-fic degree.

you are WRONG.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...no-tested.html

the 1M *stock* puts down OVER 330hp at the wheels as witnessed by many dyno tests done by different people. If you take that into account as crank (+15%) then BMW should have marketed this car as 385hp rather than the 335hp they did market it as.

340whp and 400lb/ft STOCK here.
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=689071

also IIRC F8X M3s are definitely underrated as well......we don't need your unsubstantiated opinions when there are plenty of charts and graphs available to document this as a fact..

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by ///Jason

It could be to do with the media? The M2, A45 & RS3 all have similar stated HP but then by the M2 actually having more it can have an edge over its rivals in reviews ect?

Although how they get away with underselling it is beyond me. It also reminds me of how 0-60 times are usually quite modest with the likes of Porsche ect.

etc.

But what do you mean "how they get away with underselling it is beyond me."?

As mentioned above, there's absolutely nothing to stop them. Despite people attempting to make up legal ramifications, there really aren't any when it comes to giving MORE than you're advertising.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by 135iDCT

fbo + meth near 500 whp

You think the single OE snail is capable of that? Sounds a lot more like an N54/S55 number.

[///Jason]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

etc.

But what do you mean "how they get away with underselling it is beyond me."?

As mentioned above, there's absolutely nothing to stop them. Despite people attempting to make up legal ramifications, there really aren't any when it comes to giving MORE than you're advertising.

Sorry grammar police

I know - but you would think for example insurers would have a hay day if they found out that the car had more HP than listed - it's not like they try and analyse every other detail!

Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining though