[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by Hellkite

They really need to put a detuned S55 instead of a N55. the N55 blows after 360. I would worrie about reliability. Even tunners are are replacing the cranks rods and pistons on the M235i just to get 400 +. If Bmw puts the N55 into the M2 it will be the worst m car ever. The m2 also needs a serious diet, it can't weigh as much as the m235.

If you have played around with either a N54, or N55, you will know that HP is meaningless. A well massaged N55 can deliver any amount of torque necessary, so no need to rag on the engine. One can now have constant torque..

So "it" becomes about tarmac & tranny logic, not horsepower! (ie: HP wars)


With more than (ie) 400ft-lb of torque @ 1,380rpm ~ 6,200rpms.. who cares how much HP you have...(?) Constant TQ based on pre-programmed internal thresholds is what the 1M had, the new M3/4 have.
(& I suspect along with some BMW "is" models, too).

Software kernel alone, will dictate attack speed/thrust (tq).

[j23a45m]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Not really.

You said that the S55 is an N55 with two turbos. It is not.

i said and you quoted
"is using pretty much a N55 just with 2 turbo"
another winner. sorry i didn't care to be 100% exact
but again thank you

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by Desert_Fox

I think its crappy because the E9x generation was the first time in BMW's history where a consumer actually debated and compared the performance merits of the standard car (335i) and the sports model (M3). BMW really f***ed up by offering a 'performance' model that wasn't ages better than the model below it, just slightly better (and at a very noticeable price premium). I mean for the E46, who cross shopped a 330i and an M3? If you had the money you'd go for the M3 every day of the week if performance was the first focus. That's all I meant. When I was still a kid and the e92 M3 came out, I really wanted one and thought they were the coolest thing. I finally drove one and my first reaction was "Man... what a let down."

You must be from Colorado or Washington !! Man I wish that stuff you're smoking was legal here already !! In what parallel fantasy world is an E9X M3 not "ages" better than a 335i in terms of raw performance? Have you even driven either car? Yes I have owned both .. Thanks for the laugh though

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Desert_Fox

I think its crappy because the E9x generation was the first time in BMW's history where a consumer actually debated and compared the performance merits of the standard car (335i) and the sports model (M3). BMW really f***ed up by offering a 'performance' model that wasn't ages better than the model below it, just slightly better (and at a very noticeable price premium). I mean for the E46, who cross shopped a 330i and an M3? If you had the money you'd go for the M3 every day of the week if performance was the first focus. That's all I meant. When I was still a kid and the e92 M3 came out, I really wanted one and thought they were the coolest thing. I finally drove one and my first reaction was "Man... what a let down."

Having been driving/tracking/autocrossing/racing BMWs since the 1970s, I guess my perspective is a bit different. I love the S65 and E90 M3 -- fantastic driving experience and, btw, the only stock class BMW to be competitive in SCCA autox in many years (the prior one was a one-year showing for the E46 ZHP in D-stock many years ago). These BMW V8s (i.e. S62 in my M5 and S65 in my M3) are simply wonderful designs, each with profoundly different character, that they will long be remembered and sought after. My M5 (had it forever) is actually the only car I've ever owned that declined in price, bottomed (in 2009) and has now strongly appreciated (up over 50% from what it would have sold for in 2009).

The very first M3, the E30, versus the E30 325is violates your claim right off the bat. The performance difference between the two was not dramatic (stock for stock) -- go back and read the test results from way back then. The M3 had vices compared to the 325is too such as the nasty 4cylinder vibration versus the perfectly (naturally) balanced M20 6cyl. The M3 was only 0.3 sec and 2mph faster in the 1/4 than the 325is. With a few suspension mods and headers/tune, the 325 was ahead/equal on track. Of course back then it was still actually possible to order a non-M BMW with an LSD, so that is one expense that wasn't needed to help match up the two.

[W///]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Having been driving/tracking/autocrossing/racing BMWs since the 1970s, I guess my perspective is a bit different. I love the S65 and E90 M3 -- fantastic driving experience and, btw, the only stock class BMW to be competitive in SCCA autox in many years (the prior one was a one-year showing for the E46 ZHP in D-stock many years ago). These BMW V8s (i.e. S62 in my M5 and S65 in my M3) are simply wonderful designs, each with profoundly different character, that they will long be remembered and sought after. My M5 (had it forever) is actually the only car I've ever owned that declined in price, bottomed (in 2009) and has now strongly appreciated (up over 50% from what it would have sold for in 2009).

The very first M3, the E30, versus the E30 325is violates your claim right off the bat. The performance difference between the two was not dramatic (stock for stock) -- go back and read the test results from way back then. The M3 had vices compared to the 325is too such as the nasty 4cylinder vibration versus the perfectly (naturally) balanced M20 6cyl. The M3 was only 0.3 sec and 2mph faster in the 1/4 than the 325is. With a few suspension mods and headers/tune, the 325 was ahead/equal on track. Of course back then it was still actually possible to order a non-M BMW with an LSD, so that is one expense that wasn't needed to help match up the two.

I was going to reply to him, but decided it was a waste of time because he obviously either is too young to remember those cars or just not familiar with them. Another example would be the US E36 M3. Were they even that much quicker than a 328i?

At least with the E9x M3, you had the choice of an I6 vs a V8. Both great choices IMO, and both completely different (rather than I6 vs I6). And at the end of the day, the 335iS is not THAT much insanely cheaper than an M3 either, so there goes that argument as well.

And Desert Fox, if the S65 is so crappy, why did it win Best Engine in the 3 to 4L category from 2008 until 2012, and then coming second in 2013 only to the Mclaren engine? I assure you those judges were not a bunch of random E9x owners from M3post. Oh well, personally, I'm going to love enjoying both a V8 and turboed I6 when I add the next car.

P.S. Btw, I drove a buddy's E39 M5 the other week again and it seriously makes the perfect DD. What a great car. If only I could justify having 2 V8's in the garage. And you are absolutely right, prices have come way back up again. Can't find a clean Imola Red M5 for less than high teens.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Desert_Fox

I think its crappy because the E9x generation was the first time in BMW's history where a consumer actually debated and compared the performance merits of the standard car (335i) and the sports model (M3). BMW really f***ed up by offering a 'performance' model that wasn't ages better than the model below it, just slightly better (and at a very noticeable price premium). I mean for the E46, who cross shopped a 330i and an M3? If you had the money you'd go for the M3 every day of the week if performance was the first focus. That's all I meant. When I was still a kid and the e92 M3 came out, I really wanted one and thought they were the coolest thing. I finally drove one and my first reaction was "Man... what a let down."

I understand what you are saying - however, in my humble opinion, you might have missed the "point" of an M car - which has been never straight line speed. I had a tuned N54 and have had two N55s now...yes, they are fast below 80 MPH...but they also lack the feeling and purpose and pantomime nature of a true M car.

And that's why M cars, at least of the past (including the E92 M3) were so much more expensive than the 135 or 335 or whatever. Those cars, with whatever bits you want to throw on them, are never going to be M cars - Ms are engineered with a different purpose in mind, again in the past at least - we have seen this differentiation diluted over some of the newer models (think M5, M5, X5M, X6M) but that difference was certainly there with the E92 M3.

You can't take an E92 M3 into 3rd gear at 8300 RPM and say it's a let down, because I simply would not believe you. That's an event my man - and that is the difference...

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by W///

And you are absolutely right, prices have come way back up again. Can't find a clean Imola Red M5 for less than high teens.

It's the low mileage very well cared for M5s that are selling for a LOT more than a few years ago. One 10k mile Alpine white E39 M5 just recently changed hands for $75k for example. Of course EAG is at the front of pushing the market up on these as they will buy primo cars on the spot. They just recently crossed the $30k barrier for any M5 they sell; so even 70k mile cars are well bid in this market. It's actually a bit crazy right now. If you have a very low mileage E39 M5, it's probably time to let it go into the mania.

I've had mine 11 years, and it has 62k miles on it now, garaged 24/7, never driven in rain, etc, so it presents as new inside and close to new outside. It would probably sell for about 50% more than it would have 5 years ago. Of course the "fear" of owners of pristine, low mileage M5s is that the market really goes bonkers, and these things are changing hands for 200-300% more in a few short years. Just look at what has happened to the formerly neglected, early Porsche 930s in the past year (and numerous other German cars, even stuff like a mid-80s Audi 4000CS Quattro).

Regards,
Chuck

[W///]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

It's the low mileage very well cared for M5s that are selling for a LOT more than a few years ago. One 10k mile Alpine white E39 M5 just recently changed hands for $75k for example. Of course EAG is at the front of pushing the market up on these as they will buy primo cars on the spot. They just recently crossed the $30k barrier for any M5 they sell; so even 70k mile cars are well bid in this market. It's actually a bit crazy right now. If you have a very low mileage E39 M5, it's probably time to let it go into the mania.

I've had mine 11 years, and it has 62k miles on it now, garaged 24/7, never driven in rain, etc, so it presents as new inside and close to new outside. It would probably sell for about 50% more than it would have 5 years ago. Of course the "fear" of owners of pristine, low mileage M5s is that the market really goes bonkers, and these things are changing hands for 200-300% more in a few short years. Just look at what has happened to the formerly neglected, early Porsche 930s in the past year (and numerous other German cars, even stuff like a mid-80s Audi 4000CS Quattro).

Regards,
Chuck

A friend of mine sold his Carbon Black 01 M5 for right under $10k (had about 130k miles). I had the chance to buy it, but it went to another friend of mine. It's not a mint car on exterior, front really needs a repaint, but the interior was really nice and was also mechanically sound. My friend that now owns the car has done a few maintenance things to it and it's driving beautifully. Now that I've driven it again, I'm really kicking myself for not getting it, but like I said, I can't have 3 cars, especially considering none of them would get over 19 mpg combined That's why the M2 might fit the gap that I need to fill perfectly. It's going to be really exciting following this car as it goes through testing.

Btw, another car that I missed out on. Z3M's. They were going for peanuts when I was looking for a car after I graduated college. Now clean ones go for pretty crazy money, especially if it has S54. Don't even want to look at 1M market in a few years, it's going to be insane!

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

here's the demographic of the people seemingly interested in the M2 thus far:

1-series owners:
- Dazed and confused

1M owners:
- Watching to see if the M2 is a refined clone of the 1M

2-series owners:
- still confused about what the M235i is.

E9X M3 owners
- Complaining non-stop and not realising most of us don't care at all for their V8s.

other BMW owners
- Disoriented, but trying to remain happy

Not really. I fall in the other category. I am following the development of M2, new Cayman and comparing to C7 value wise (fun vs $). The current BMW lineup does nothing for me. I am more excited when I see 335is, e36, e46 than any F30 or F80 model. The new Cayman will re-define what sub 3k lbs car can do. BMW is falling so far behind P it is not even funny. The hpde enthusiasts are not buying any new BMW and more and more are switching to P. Hell even Chevy has a high perf track car.

[Artemis]

BMW was thinking about the possibility of an M2 already several years ago.

[avsbmw]

Originally Posted by Artemis

BMW was thinking about the possibility of an M2 already several years ago.

Attachment 1020793
Attachment 1020792
Attachment 1020791

Crazy how far in advance they thing of these things! Can't wait to see this car.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

Not really. I fall in the other category. I am following the development of M2, new Cayman and comparing to C7 value wise (fun vs $). The current BMW lineup does nothing for me. I am more excited when I see 335is, e36, e46 than any F30 or F80 model. The new Cayman will re-define what sub 3k lbs car can do. BMW is falling so far behind P it is not even funny. The hpde enthusiasts are not buying any new BMW and more and more are switching to P. Hell even Chevy has a high perf track car.

As bad as I want a Cayman, it's just too damn expensive. If the M2 comes out and it's as good of a car as we hope it will be, it'll undercut a low option Cayman S by almost 20 grand. That's nothing to sneeze at IMO. The C7, no one can argue about in terms of performance vs price.

[phoenixbmwlife]

I was considering the Stingray with the Z51 package as I can get preferred pricing, but it's just not practical for me anymore not having a back seat. Plus the only one I would ultimately want is the Z06 and fully loaded that's like more than a base Cayman and a Base M2 combined.

I don't think the Stingray should even be discussed as a comparison with the M2. BMW is just not ready to make a current, lightweight true sports car (the likes of P Cayman or C Stingray) at the moment. Hopefully that will change in the near future. I would love to see the the i8 body with a naturally aspirated mid engine mounted 8 cyl with 600hp and 600lbs tq, perfect 50/50 weight distribution that weights 3000 - 3100 lbs. That would shake things up.

[bimmer4life24]

Originally Posted by Delnari

Make the base M2 a stripper version with a $49K price. Let people decide what packages and options they want. If you want a $70K fully loaded version then configure it as such. For me, even AC would be an option.

+1

$49.9K base is my guess

[b33g33]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

As I heard from insiders outside the building, the first year production M2s will have limited edition cupholders.

But what about bespoke rearviewmirrors, and the stitching of the seats? How much more will an electric powerseat weigh vs a manual one?

Will it have PDC front and rear as standard?
And a sunroof? As an option, because I don't want one.

Decisions decisions decisions.

The overkill of questions makes me mad.

*gets a coffee*

Cheers
Robin

[BMWJS]

Originally Posted by bimmer4life24

+1

$49.9K base is my guess

Agreed.
The difference in cost between a 135is and the 1M was about $3K US. Since the M235 is comparable to the 135is, wouldn't it add up that the M2 should be about $3K more than the M235? Maybe a little more if they include extras in the base?? M2 = $47,000 to $50,000.

[ChrisMT79]

I seriously thought I was going to be patient enough to wait for the M2, but my thoughts now are get the M3 now, and the M2 when it comes out- keep both! Seems to be the only logical option.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

here's the demographic of the people seemingly interested in the M2 thus far:

1-series owners:
- Dazed and confused

1M owners:
- Watching to see if the M2 is a refined clone of the 1M

2-series owners:
- still confused about what the M235i is.

E9X M3 owners
- Complaining non-stop and not realising most of us don't care at all for their V8s.

other BMW owners
- Disoriented, but trying to remain happy

Most hilarious post

[Delnari]

Whatever M2 variant that comes out of the BMW factory in 2 or more years it will be safe to say that it will be the most affordable M car you can buy. For me, that is why I will own one.

[pyrat]

Originally Posted by Delnari

Whatever M2 variant that comes out of the BMW factory in 2 or more years it will be safe to say that it will be the most affordable M car you can buy. For me, that is why I will own one.

+1 BMW please take a look at this thread and other internet traffic related to M2. 16 pages and about as many responses as horsepower on the M2.This is what the people want. An affordable M car to fulfill our childhood dreams of owning an M car.

Many of the people on this forum are BMW enthusiasts that have awaiting each new M offering to be able to buy one, only to find that the M3/M4 is too expensive to justify - and too heavy/big lately. The 1M was nearly a dream come true, but it was limited, so dreams crushed again. With this M2 hopes are restored. Make a well-crafted, affordable, fun M car. Personally, and I think many people can live with a metal roof instead of Carbon Fiber - especially if it keeps the final cost of the car within reach.

[Greenkirby21]

Gosh I don't know what to do!

Buy an M235i with my discounts and mod it (around 48k all said and done)

Wait for an M2 (I have a feeling insurance might be a lot more expensive, and my 128i feels like it's at it's end of life haha)

Buy a C7 LT1 Z51 (53,000) after employee discount

[snaimpally]

Those of us with an n55 are thinking about the possibility of OEM performance upgrades by grafting some of the m2 parts onto our engine.