[chris719]

Originally Posted by eddie57

hello everyone I read all the pages of this post concerning oil it appears that the xcess gen 2 motule is good... I am European and I have access to the RAVENOL VMO SAE 5W-40 HTHS 4.0 and kv100 13.3 c It's very good, isn't it?

Yes, this is a good oil.

[terrywang]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yes Pennzoil platnium euro 5w40 should be identical to shell helix ultra 5w40, not the other way around. The oil that sets the benchmark is the shell oil, then the brands shell owns (pennzoil, quakerstate, and the brands shell makes oil for aka moto master in canada) will use the same formulation as shell. So the flag ship oil is the shell helix ultra 5w40.

Shell doesn't release HTHS, NOACK, etc. Some times there are leaks or insider knowledge or they might even tell you if you ask (shell told me hths was 3.8 when I emailed and asked a few years ago) but that is it.

Thanks, I'll stick to Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40.

Somehow I searched and found a PDF version of Helix Ultra (year 2014 though) 5W-40 with HTHS viscosity (it was 3.68 back then), but Shell no longer publish HTHS ...

[F87source]

Originally Posted by terrywang

Thanks, I'll stick to Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40.

Somehow I searched and found a PDF version of Helix Ultra (year 2014 though) 5W-40 with HTHS viscosity (it was 3.68 back then), but Shell no longer publish HTHS ...

Yup good choice.

That's a really really really old formulation that is no longer in use. Since then shell has vastly improved the formulation of helix ultra 5w40, it is significantly better in every aspect, from base stock, additives, hths etc. So those older data sheets mean nothing.

[eddie57]

HERE'S THE RAVENOL WHICH LOOKS REALLY GOOD,
RIGHTProperty Unit Data Audit
Density at 20 °C kg/m³ 848,0 EN ISO 12185
Colour gelbbraun VISUELL
Viscosity at 100 °C mm²/s 13,3 DIN 51562-1
Viscosity at 40 °C mm²/s 80,0 DIN 51562-1
Viscosity Index VI 170 DIN ISO 2909
HTHS Viscosity at 150 °C mPa*s 4,0 ASTM D5481
CCS Viscosity at -30 °C mPa*s 6375 ASTM D5293
Low Temp. Pumping viscosity (MRV) at -35 °C mPa*s 27.000 ASTM D4684
Pourpoint °C -45 DIN ISO 3016
Noack Volatility % M/M 8,8 ASTM D5800
Flashpoint °C 242 DIN EN ISO 2592
tbn mg KOH/g 8,7 ASTM D2896

[F87 Mew2]

Originally Posted by F87source

Also I wanted to say living here in Canada where it gets down to -35°C in the winter at times I've never really experienced any negatives running a 5w40 oil in my past subarus, and almost all subaru guys do the same. The important part is to let it warm up before driving it. I generally let it warm to 42°C before I drive my m2 in the summer. Then do not push it hard (no WOT and don't exceed 3000 rpm) until it fully warms up which is 90°C.

Hey! I'm also living in Canada, in the GTA. For my previous car (C43 AMG), I used Mobil 1 0W40 as I thought it made more sense with our temperatures, but from your experience, the Pennzoil 5W40 will do the job for the M2C? Looking to stock up on oil soon so would appreciate some expertise from a fellow Canadian

[F87source]

Originally Posted by F87 Mew2

Hey! I'm also living in Canada, in the GTA. For my previous car (C43 AMG), I used Mobil 1 0W40 as I thought it made more sense with our temperatures, but from your experience, the Pennzoil 5W40 will do the job for the M2C? Looking to stock up on oil soon so would appreciate some expertise from a fellow Canadian

Hey!

PPE 5W40 will be fine for use in our climate, it has a -45C pour point as well (mobile 1 0w40 isn't as low, and is rated for -42C). So you shouldn't ever run into a situation where the oil is so cold it doesn't flow anymore.

So yes PPE 5W40 will be suitable for the M2C. The oil generally goes on a really good sale during black friday at Canadian tire, and that's when I usually stock up. If it isn't on sale, then walmart has really good prices year round.


https://shell-livedocs.com/data/publ...2152ed87df.pdf

https://www.mobil.com/en-us/passenge...bil-1-fs-0w-40

[chris719]

Originally Posted by F87source

Hey!

PPE 5W40 will be fine for use in our climate, it has a -45C pour point as well (mobile 1 0w40 isn't as low, and is rated for -42C). So you shouldn't ever run into a situation where the oil is so cold it doesn't flow anymore.

So yes PPE 5W40 will be suitable for the M2C. The oil generally goes on a really good sale during black friday at Canadian tire, and that's when I usually stock up. If it isn't on sale, then walmart has really good prices year round.


https://shell-livedocs.com/data/publ...2152ed87df.pdf

https://www.mobil.com/en-us/passenge...bil-1-fs-0w-40

You’re correct overall, but pour point isn’t the figure of merit. The SAE winter rating is defined by MRV and CCS test results. If an oil passes CCS at -35 C it must be labeled a 0W, if it passes at -30 it must be a 5W. It’s about pumpability and resistance to gelation and cavitation. So, even though the pour point of M1 0W-40 is higher than PP Euro 5W-40, it will safely crank / pump lower. The old TWS 10W-60 had a pour point of -51 C but it won’t pass even 5W CCS/MRV tests. Pour point simply means the base stock has a lot of PAO / absence of wax formation. The winter grade is not optional, if it passes at 0W temperatures it must be labeled a 0W, etc. if something is sold as a 5W, it’s not passing at the 0W test temperatures.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

You’re correct overall, but pour point isn’t the figure of merit. The SAE winter rating is defined by MRV and CCS test results. If an oil passes CCS at -35 C it must be labeled a 0W, if it passes at -30 it must be a 5W. It’s about pumpability and resistance to gelation and cavitation. So, even though the pour point of M1 0W-40 is higher than PP Euro 5W-40, it will safely crank / pump lower. The old TWS 10W-60 had a pour point of -51 C but it won’t pass even 5W CCS/MRV tests. Pour point simply means the base stock has a lot of PAO / absence of wax formation. The winter grade is not optional, if it passes at 0W temperatures it must be labeled a 0W, etc. if something is sold as a 5W, it’s not passing at the 0W test temperatures.

Thanks for the input chris!

Quick question, is ccs/mrv the baseline i.e. it passes at -35C it technically can go lower, the tests just cut off at -35?


Because technically there are places in Canada where -35 doesn't cut it, my area does get below -35 (before windchill is factored in) many times per year.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by F87source

Thanks for the input chris!

Quick question, is ccs/mrv the baseline i.e. it passes at -35C it technically can go lower, the tests just cut off at -35?


Because technically there are places in Canada where -35 doesn't cut it, my area does get below -35 (before windchill is factored in) many times per year.

Yeah it’s only tested at -35C, so it could possibly crank lower. The only thing you’re sure about is if an oil is 5W it’s not going to be good under -30 C or it would have been labeled 0W. I’m going to also assume the test has some margin and the oil also.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

Yeah it’s only tested at -35C, so it could possibly crank lower. The only thing you’re sure about is if an oil is 5W it’s not going to be good under -30 C or it would have been labeled 0W. I’m going to also assume the test has some margin and the oil also.

strangely enough all of my Honda and Acura vehicles are specified for 5W20, even though the temperatures here go below -30 for weeks at a time, and even go below -35C a few times a year.

So not sure why Honda/Acura specified a 5W weight oil for the Canadian climates.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by F87source

strangely enough all of my Honda and Acura vehicles are specified for 5W20, even though the temperatures here go below -30 for weeks at a time, and even go below -35C a few times a year.

So not sure why Honda/Acura specified a 5W weight oil for the Canadian climates.

The manual probably has that common bar chart that goes down to -30 C and so implicitly warns you not to start it below that, I guess. I assume Honda didn't want to spec 0W until recently because it would require a more costly synthetic oil.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Testdescri...ldcrank25.html

[F87source]

Originally Posted by chris719

The manual probably has that common bar chart that goes down to -30 C and so implicitly warns you not to start it below that, I guess. I assume Honda didn't want to spec 0W until recently because it would require a more costly synthetic oil.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Testdescri...ldcrank25.html

Actually one of my other Honda's (2.4L) uses 0w20 (my mistake), the Acura (3.7L) uses 5w20.

So far no issues with either. So

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by F87source

Actually one of my other Honda's (2.4L) uses 0w20 (my mistake), the Acura (3.7L) uses 5w20.

So far no issues with either. So

Do you know why Honda has not approved 0w-20 for the 3.7L? I can't imagine it was because the didn't test the engine with it. But it's hard to imagine the engine would have failed testing with it either!

[F87source]

Originally Posted by E90convert

Do you know why Honda has not approved 0w-20 for the 3.7L? I can't imagine it was because the didn't test the engine with it. But it's hard to imagine the engine would have failed testing with it either!

It might have been approved for it, I'm not sure. Since I don't really care to investigate every little detail to the extremes on my daily driver, especially since it only sees street use and thus the oil isn't going to be stressed to insane levels. I just buy the best quality oil of the appropriate weight for it and that's that.


Btw don't forget, Honda doesn't have any OEM certifications. They literally specify this in the owners manual: "Recommended Engine Oil
Genuine Honda Motor Oil
Premium-grade 0W-20 detergent oil with an API Certification Seal on the container"

https://www.honda.ca/Content/ownerma...72186DA90.html



Yeah, it seems Honda doesn't do very much testing aside from viscosity... So in this regard I don't really trust Honda's judgement on what oil is good to use aside from viscosity. I'd rather rely on well known and extremely rigourous tests from other OEM's + independent testing to determine what oil is good to use rather than always relying on one OE specifications alone. This should also show that overly trusting an OEM and trusting that their engineers have what's best for the engine in mind (like bmw saying FE oils are preferred when jts clear they don't protect as well as non fe oils, and are only used for emissions), isn't always a good strategy. Because by that logic there would be zero difference between me using Pennzoil platinum 0w20 in my Honda vs. super tech full synthetic Walmart no name oil that is api certified...

[F87source]

Originally Posted by E90convert

Do you know why Honda has not approved 0w-20 for the 3.7L? I can't imagine it was because the didn't test the engine with it. But it's hard to imagine the engine would have failed testing with it either!

Ok I looked it up a bit more, and I think it might have to do with oil consumption because the 3.7L engines are known to burn oil, and have had recall services done. I know this because that was my own car.


There is also some information that pre 2011 engines should use 5w20 and post 2011 engines should use 0w20. But you can utilize 0w20 if needed for extremely cold climates. I'll check my owners manual to verify, but honestly I don't really care since it's my daily. My oil cap says 5w20 so that's what I use, and it is parked in a heated garage and never spends any meaningful time outside in the cold. So temps aren't an issue for me.

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah, it seems Honda doesn't do very much testing aside from viscosity... So in this regard I don't really trust Honda's judgement on what oil is good to use aside from viscosity. I'd rather rely on well known and extremely rigourous tests from other OEM's + independent testing to determine what oil is good to use rather than always relying on one OE specifications alone. This should also show that overly trusting an OEM and trusting that their engineers have what's best for the engine in mind (like bmw saying FE oils are preferred when jts clear they don't protect as well as non fe oils, and are only used for emissions), isn't always a good strategy. Because by that logic there would be zero difference between me using Pennzoil platinum 0w20 in my Honda vs. super tech full synthetic Walmart no name oil that is api certified...

I'd consider that the non-performance Honda engines are relatively low-tech and robust enough that they do not need to rely on additional oil requirements to operate with long life. I doubt Honda tests its engines with anything other than genuine oil, though. As far as FE vs. non-FE oil speccing..., I hypothetically would step up from the 20-grade and run a 30-grade oil for track use on a Honda engine that was not tested or specifically designed for track use.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by E90convert

I'd consider that the non-performance Honda engines are relatively low-tech and robust enough that they do not need to rely on additional oil requirements to operate with long life. I doubt Honda tests its engines with anything other than genuine oil, though. As far as FE vs. non-FE oil speccing..., I hypothetically would step up from the 20-grade and run a 30-grade oil for track use on a Honda engine that was not tested or specifically designed for track use.

Yeah I agree, honda engines are pretty strong. The internals looked brand new from what I could see when it was torn apart for the oil consumption recall.

Honda genuine oil varies alot from region to region. From what I can tell Honda uses Conoco Phillips, to idemitsu (in Japan), and even petro Canada in Canada. So I doubt they do very much testing aside from weight.


In terms of testing for track use, not many Japanese manufactuerers spec or certify any type of oil for use in their cars, regardless of use type or engine type. So not being used for performance driving isn't even an excuse as to why honda doesn't spec higher grade oils. For instance the cars being branded as performance vehicles - the Honda s2000, civic type r, acura nsx, frs, brz, sti, and the list goes on. None of those cars specify anything more than api approved oil. Yeah, some manufactuers just dont care enough to do the extensive testing. It's only the European manufacturers that have stringent testing and oil requirements, and none of their extremely stringent tests pass for FE oils.

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I agree, honda engines are pretty strong. The internals looked brand new from what I could see when it was torn apart for the oil consumption recall.

Honda genuine oil varies alot from region to region. From what I can tell Honda uses Conoco Phillips, to idemitsu (in Japan), and even petro Canada in Canada. So I doubt they do very much testing aside from weight.


In terms of testing for track use, not many Japanese manufactuerers spec or certify any type of oil for use in their cars, regardless of use type or engine type. So not being used for performance driving isn't even an excuse as to why honda doesn't spec higher grade oils. For instance the cars being branded as performance vehicles - the Honda s2000, civic type r, acura nsx, frs, brz, sti, and the list goes on. None of those cars specify anything more than api approved oil. Yeah, some manufactuers just dont care enough to do the extensive testing. It's only the European manufacturers that have stringent testing and oil requirements, and none of their extremely stringent tests pass for FE oils.

I would be very surprised to learn that Honda does not test every Honda Genuine oil supplier. It is very common in the automotive engineering world to test supplier changes. Even for simple things such as fasteners. Simple supplier changes can have a large impact on coating friction coefficients which changes your statistical distribution for clamp load. Going from one supplier to the next on a seemly identical part could be the difference between screws loosening and not! I have seen this first hand

Looking at the 2019 NSX owners manual, it is disappointing the lack of specificity. They seem to cover themselves with the "notice" that implies the user must use the Honda Genuine oil for guaranteed operation. The probably make that statement because it was the only oil they tested in that engine.

American manufacturers have stepped up their oil speccing game recently. Ford and GM have pretty precise engine oil requirements for a lot of their special motors! The Mobil 1 Super Car oil is a pretty neat concept.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by E90convert

I would be very surprised to learn that Honda does not test every Honda Genuine oil supplier. It is very common in the automotive engineering world to test supplier changes. Even for simple things such as fasteners. Simple supplier changes can have a large impact on coating friction coefficients which changes your statistical distribution for clamp load. Going from one supplier to the next on a seemly identical part could be the difference between screws loosening and not! I have seen this first hand

Looking at the 2019 NSX owners manual, it is disappointing the lack of specificity. They seem to cover themselves with the "notice" that implies the user must use the Honda Genuine oil for guaranteed operation. The probably make that statement because it was the only oil they tested in that engine.

American manufacturers have stepped up their oil speccing game recently. Ford and GM have pretty precise engine oil requirements for a lot of their special motors! The Mobil 1 Super Car oil is a pretty neat concept.

I don't they test it, they probably just have the manufacturers blend it to a certain standard that they have established. But I can't find a single voa of honda genuine oil to see if it varies from region to region so I can't confirm that.

Edit - I lied I found one spec sheet: http://pqiadata.org/Honda_0W20.html

It looks ok, noack is over 10% and would fail European standards, additives are ok - but probably not good for lspi (it's going to be an issue on their tiny 1.5L turbo motors) since it's calcium heavy (that's what you get for not having API sn+) you can find better with pennzoil, mobil, motul etc.

Yep I was wrong about the nsx.

On a side note I read my Acura owners manual and it's still 5w20, nothing about using only Honda oil etc.


So what American manufacturers are getting more stringent? European manufacturers have been even more stringent for decades now. It also doesn't mean that you have to run oe oils, you can run aftermarket oils with oe approvals. And guess what, like we have established over and over in this thread, those aftermarket oe certified oils are superior to oe oils....


Well at the end of the day it's up to you what oil you run, we get that your a proponent of running only OEM oils and trusting that the OE has validated it to the extremes. However as oil analysis and tests have shown time and time again, oe oil isn't the best you can always do better in the aftermarket. For instance take any of bmw's genuine oil and compare it to a top tier LL01 oil (certified by bmw) and you'll see the top tier aftermarket oils trump the genuine bmw oils easily.

So why wouldn't want the additional protection? You may argue that bmw has tested their oils and ensured that wear is appropriate. Then why would LL01 even exist? Why wouldn't it be just LL01FE? There are plenty of UOA tests showing better results and less shearing with non fe oils on track anyways.


So like I said before you run whatever you want, we get that you trust the OE fully, but for the rest of us capable of seeing the data showing LL01 is vastly superior to LL01FE and the top tier LL01 oils are vastly better than the genuine bmw oils. We will run those.

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by F87source

So why wouldn't want the additional protection? You may argue that bmw has tested their oils and ensured that wear is appropriate. Then why would LL01 even exist? Why wouldn't it be just LL01FE? There are plenty of UOA tests showing better results and less shearing with non fe oils on track anyways.


So like I said before you run whatever you want, we get that you trust the OE fully, but for the rest of us capable of seeing the data showing LL01 is vastly superior to LL01FE and the top tier LL01 oils are vastly better than the genuine bmw oils. We will run those.

I've seen a few UOAs where I think the LL-01FE performed perfectly fine for track usage; more importantly, I have not seen a UOA where I thought the LL-01FE performed poorly. There is no strong enough reason to switch to LL-01 for my use case, location, and on a completely stock engine.

I recently learned that the N55 and the S55 in the race cars specify LL-04. How interesting! While I don't plan on switching to LL-04, BMW has specified a thicker oil for their competitive race cars where track reliability is coveted. So who knows, maybe I'll modify my engine or get a poor UOA with the LL-01FE and move up to a full LL-01. You'll be the first to know !

[Lbsigman]

Originally Posted by E90convert

I recently learned that the N55 and the S55 in the race cars specify LL-04. How interesting!

Where did you hear this from?

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by Lbsigman

Where did you hear this from?

It is in the owner's manual for the M235iR and M2 CS Racing. I attached the M235iR manual, but cannot find my copy of the CS Racing. It was the same, though. If I find it later, I'll post it.