[STK]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

There is more than one way to interpret the statements regarding driving at the limit. One way to interpret it is that if you can't drive a car to it's full potential, you shouldn't have it. I agree; I think that argument is bullshit.

The other way to interpret it is that if you don't have the [/l]opportunity[/I] to drive the car to its limit, there's no sense in having the M2. I can understand this to some degree. Most BMWs hold up well when driven to somewhere around 7/10ths. For example, under most circumstances, my 135i was entirely gratifying to drive. It was only when I pushed it past 7/10ths that the chassis let me down. The springs were too soft, and the car pushed (understeer) terminally. My M3, by contrast, was a delight above 7/10ths.

So, if you're only going to drive a car around town, I can still definitely understand that you can feel a difference, but the differentiation between the two really doesn't become glaring until you're pushing pretty hard.

I agree but I'd add a third interpretation. Feeling the difference between the cars and being able to use the differences to drive better w/ the M2 are two different things. You'd have to be kind of oblivious not to notice the firmer ride of an M2 relative to the M240. But if you haven't had some track or skidpad experience, you probably won't be able to drive better or quicker in the M2. Without that experience, the modest difference in the capabilities of the cars gets washed out by the lack of capability and inconsistency of the driver. To get where the cars matter, you'd have to drive both cars near the limits of adhesion, take roughly the same best line, be somewhat consistent in breaking points, etc.

This doesn't mean you need to be an F1 driver, you just need the skill to get within shouting distance of the capabilities of the car. Some HPDEs for example. And after, you'll know what you don't know. The vast majority of drivers have not spent a day driving any car near its limits in a safe environment with instruction learning the basics about the car's inputs and dynamics.

It's personally satisfying for a whole bunch of real and legitimate reasons to own a M2 or a M240. And many people can distinguish the difference between the cars, certainly the ride. But that doesn't mean that the M2 makes you a better or faster driver than you would be in the M240. That takes practice. And that doesn't seem too controversial to me.

[sakson]

why would anyone get M240i over M2 and even spend more money on it?

[AlpsRider]

I own an M235.
As many have stated, the M2 looks more cool than the M235/M240 if you like your cars to look "zoom". I am in fact in the zoom camp myself.

The M240i is cheaper in real terms. There is black and white proof that you can save around $10,000. by choosing the M240i because of discounts. Of course if you must have the goodies on the M2, LSD, exhaust, bigger wheels and tires, and better (also rougher) suspension then the M2 is a better deal. The M2 with its M badging and fat fenders also carries more prestige. If I could have bought the M2 at the time of my purchase, I would have. Since I already own an M235i, I've purchase some bigger BBS wheels and mounted new MPS4 S tires that are 235/35/19 in the front and 265/30/19 in the rear. This brings up the rubber to the same size in the rear as the M2. The Dinan springs are going on tomorrow along with the wheels. I'm hopping the bigger tires and Dinan springs will transform my car in the handling department. After I sell my original wheels the wheel upgrade will be about $1400., the Dinan springs installed will be $550. So for about $2,000. I hope to get a more sporty ride and save the $20,000 dollars that it would cost me to upgrade to an M2.

[DivideBYZero]

You'll need to find a way to make it 80mm wider, too...

[bdogk]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I own an M235.
As many have stated, the M2 looks more cool than the M235/M240 if you like your cars to look "zoom". I am in fact in the zoom camp myself.

The M240i is cheaper in real terms. There is black and white proof that you can save around $10,000. by choosing the M240i because of discounts. Of course if you must have the goodies on the M2, LSD, exhaust, bigger wheels and tires, and better (also rougher) suspension then the M2 is a better deal. The M2 with its M badging and fat fenders also carries more prestige. If I could have bought the M2 at the time of my purchase, I would have. Since I already own an M235i, I've purchase some bigger BBS wheels and mounted new MPS4 S tires that are 235/35/19 in the front and 265/30/19 in the rear. This brings up the rubber to the same size in the rear as the M2. The Dinan springs are going on tomorrow along with the wheels. I'm hopping the bigger tires and Dinan springs will transform my car in the handling department. After I sell my original wheels the wheel upgrade will be about $1400., the Dinan springs installed will be $550. So for about $2,000. I hope to get a more sporty ride and save the $20,000 dollars that it would cost me to upgrade to an M2.

My 2 cents worth. Last weekend, My son (M240i MT6) and I (M2 DCT) took our respective cars to the autocross. Unfortunately, we didn't manage to swap cars as we were only allowed 6 runs each due to the volume of entries. My son beat me in overall times, mainly because he was more aggressive (and fearless) in turning off all the "nannies". I babied my car more and so chose to stay in Sports mode fearing a spin out. Even then, the M2 was a joy to drive. Through the slaloms, it changed directions so effortlessly and responsively given the extreme wet conditions. People watching commented on how flat the M2 cornered. This all on stock suspension and tires.

At the end, my son commented he could easily have best his time in my M2. I have no doubt about that.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by DivideBYZero

You'll need to find a way to make it 80mm wider, too...

That's true, I went conservative on my offsets so the stance only gained 35mm more width at the rear. So yes if the M2 is 80mm more than the M235i then an M2 will still be 45mm wider at the rear than mine.

[yaymitch]

Originally Posted by sakson

why would anyone get M240i over M2 and even spend more money on it?

Tell me how to get an M2 for the same cost as a discounted M240i and find one that is available for purchase and then your question will have some validity. Stop looking at MSRP and actually consider reality. You can't get an M2 unless you get really lucky, you've waited a year plus on a waitlist or pay over MSRP.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by yaymitch

Tell me how to get an M2 for the same cost as a discounted M240i and find one that is available for purchase and then your question will have some validity. Stop looking at MSRP and actually consider reality. You can't get an M2 unless you get really lucky, you've waited a year plus on a waitlist or pay over MSRP.

Add in the fact that some folks need to / want to lease. If you're in that boat you're looking at paying what double per month compared to a 20% premium on a purchase (discounted 240 vs MSRP M2). Not looking to reignite the whole debate but for those who do lease I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the M2 is worth double the money the 240 is. At least last time I looked at lease rates that was the case the gap may have narrowed slightly.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by yaymitch

Tell me how to get an M2 for the same cost as a discounted M240i and find one that is available for purchase and then your question will have some validity. Stop looking at MSRP and actually consider reality. You can't get an M2 unless you get really lucky, you've waited a year plus on a waitlist or pay over MSRP.

I think the days of a year long wait for the M2 are over... though it is still several months unless you get lucky... judging from the various and occasional posts here. Still hard to get though, I agree, especially if you want MSRP.

Likely the claims that it is the same or more cost for a M240i are based on going full on with the level of equipment, upgrading the LSD, brakes and suspension to be closer to the M2 level? IDK. In my area the M240i is around $5K less at apples to apples (readily available equipment adds only - not trying to chase a LSD or M brakes or upgraded suspension), and likely gets closer to $10K with discounts. I think the M2 is worth the extra $10K with all you get, but I can easily see the point of those that are happy with the M240i performance and price combo.

[Bluedoor]

Side note: I ordered a M2 after Christmas and I'm driving it today. No wait list and at MSRP.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Add in the fact that some folks need to / want to lease. If you're in that boat you're looking at paying what double per month compared to a 20% premium on a purchase (discounted 240 vs MSRP M2). Not looking to reignite the whole debate but for those who do lease I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the M2 is worth double the money the 240 is. At least last time I looked at lease rates that was the case the gap may have narrowed slightly.

Good point about lease rates. I never lease, so often forget that consideration - but seems like most others lease their cars, and that makes a huge difference for the M2.

[XutvJet]

I've got an M235 and I love it. If I were in the market now, I'd likely go with the M2. However, for those wondering why one would consider the M240, I offer this performance perspective. Last year R&T did a comparo of the 228i 6MT vs M235i 6MT (with the LSD option) vs M2 6MT. They did acceleration and track testing. The M2 was quite a bit quicker than the M235 in the 1/4 mile (12.7@111mph vs 13.4@107mph). What was the most interesting though was the 1.2 mile track lap times. With it's larger brakes, fancy LSD, M tuned suspension, wider and larger wheels and tires, and less weight, the M2 could only post a 0.461 second better lap time. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...mparison-test/

Now I admit that this was a short track and a nearly 0.5 second better lap time would be viewed as a slaughter by true track guys, BUT is does make one wonder just how much better the M235 would have been with a basic piggyback, a wider 18" tire and rim swap, some better brake pads, and maybe slightly stiffer springs. My guess is that you could shed at least 0.3 seconds if not more, especially if you order the car without a moonroof (I did that; ~40lbs less weight in the roof).

Now there's the M240 with more power stock which appears to be on the heals of the M2 in the 1/4 mile. So, it's quite possible that with just a wider 18" tire and rim swap, brake pads, and maybe slightly stiffer springs, the M240 will generate M2 performance at the strip and on the track.

Will the M235/240 have the feel or sexy look of the M2? Nope, but it's quite easy and cheap to get it right in line with M2 numbers.

[Vyruz Reaper]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

Good point about lease rates. I never lease, so often forget that consideration - but seems like most others lease their cars, and that makes a huge difference for the M2.

I was quoted $400 more on the m2 lease over the m240i (after ~9.5k m240i discount) - m240i had every thing besides the LSD and driver collision crap.

That payment came to be very close within 10 dollars of a m3 and within 50 of a m4.

Like someone said - very happy with the price performance combo on the m240i on my lease.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I've got an M235 and I love it. If I were in the market now, I'd likely go with the M2. However, for those wondering why one would consider the M240, I offer this performance perspective. Last year R&T did a comparo of the 228i 6MT vs M235i 6MT (with the LSD option) vs M2 6MT. They did acceleration and track testing. The M2 was quite a bit quicker than the M235 in the 1/4 mile (12.7@111mph vs 13.4@107mph). What was the most interesting though was the 1.2 mile track lap times. With it's larger brakes, fancy LSD, M tuned suspension, wider and larger wheels and tires, and less weight, the M2 could only post a 0.461 second better lap time. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...mparison-test/

Now I admit that this was a short track and a nearly 0.5 second better lap time would be viewed as a slaughter by true track guys, BUT is does make one wonder just how much better the M235 would have been with a basic piggyback, a wider 18" tire and rim swap, some better brake pads, and maybe slightly stiffer springs. My guess is that you could shed at least 0.3 seconds if not more, especially if you order the car without a moonroof (I did that; ~40lbs less weight in the roof).

Now there's the M240 with more power stock which appears to be on the heals of the M2 in the 1/4 mile. So, it's quite possible that with just a wider 18" tire and rim swap, brake pads, and maybe slightly stiffer springs, the M240 will generate M2 performance at the strip and on the track.

Will the M235/240 have the feel or sexy look of the M2? Nope, but it's quite easy and cheap to get it right in line with M2 numbers.

Well, I'm not very familiar with many US tracks (off course Laguna Seca, Daytona, Sebring, Watkins, Road Atlanta and VIR I know from videos) but I am familiar with Hockenheim and Nordschleife etc overhere.

Sportauto tested an M240i @ Hockenheim Short, which is a technical, not so fast(relatively spoken) short(hence the name lol) track and it's not very wide too...
1:15.00

M2 did it in 1:12.8 and 1:12.2 depending driver/temp etc.

In theory: If the M2 was normally available, no waiting list, at the exactly same price/leaserates and monthly/annual cost, who'd consider an M240i?

I chose an M2 for the following reasons:
-Pretty macho looking
-Bonkers enginesound + LSD
-It drives/slides/steers/brakes rather excellent
-AND I CANNOT AFFORD A 991 GT3RS or even a Cayman GT4 at the moment!

I hope you get my point.

Cheers
Robin

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Vyruz Reaper

I was quoted $400 more on the m2 lease over the m240i (after ~9.5k m240i discount) - m240i had every thing besides the LSD and driver collision crap.

That payment came to be very close within 10 dollars of a m3 and within 50 of a m4.

Like someone said - very happy with the price performance combo on the m240i on my lease.

Yeah my $58K m235 convertible is like $600 per month and when I looked back in the fall the M2 leases were even worse than they are now I believe. That's nothing down clean lease too. M2 wasn't an option for me at the time since I needed AWD (wanting vert was secondary "no" reason) but it was north of a grand. Put another way, all-in I'm paying the same for my car and GF's 328 as I would have just for the M2.

Great car no doubt about it, but in a lease scenario not worth the premium at least in my mind.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Vyruz Reaper

I was quoted $400 more on the m2 lease over the m240i (after ~9.5k m240i discount) - m240i had every thing besides the LSD and driver collision crap.

That payment came to be very close within 10 dollars of a m3 and within 50 of a m4.

Like someone said - very happy with the price performance combo on the m240i on my lease.

The LSD is a big deal if you track the car. The driver collision crap of course is not.

But if you need or want to lease, the M2 is, frankly, a rip-off compared to the 240i. Which is a shame. I guess the delta feeds in to the "BMW doesn't actually want to sell that many M2s" meme. It just wants to get buyers in the door and up-sell them, or side-sell them, to other cars that are easier to make in their current factory set-up and generate more profit.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by BruceM

The LSD is a big deal if you track the car.

I know any real M car has an LSD as standard since decades (Z8 is not an Mcar but has the E39 M5 V8)

No doubt I wouldn't have bought an M2(40i) whatever if there wasn't an LSD as standard or as an option available.

One might say the engine is the heart of the car, but I'd say the LSD is the consciousness of the M2....

Cheers
Robin

[yaymitch]

Originally Posted by Bluedoor

Side note: I ordered a M2 after Christmas and I'm driving it today. No wait list and at MSRP.

That's awesome. I asked several dealers in Texas and it was still an 8-12 month waitlist at MSRP...crazy. Anyway, congrats on the M2. I was actually on one waitlist and the dealer got an allocation but wanted 5K plus over MSRP at the time (this was early on) and I passed.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I've got an M235 and I love it. If I were in the market now, I'd likely go with the M2. However, for those wondering why one would consider the M240, I offer this performance perspective. Last year R&T did a comparo of the 228i 6MT vs M235i 6MT (with the LSD option) vs M2 6MT. They did acceleration and track testing. The M2 was quite a bit quicker than the M235 in the 1/4 mile (12.7@111mph vs 13.4@107mph). What was the most interesting though was the 1.2 mile track lap times. With it's larger brakes, fancy LSD, M tuned suspension, wider and larger wheels and tires, and less weight, the M2 could only post a 0.461 second better lap time. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...mparison-test/

Now I admit that this was a short track and a nearly 0.5 second better lap time would be viewed as a slaughter by true track guys, BUT is does make one wonder just how much better the M235 would have been with a basic piggyback, a wider 18" tire and rim swap, some better brake pads, and maybe slightly stiffer springs. My guess is that you could shed at least 0.3 seconds if not more, especially if you order the car without a moonroof (I did that; ~40lbs less weight in the roof).

Now there's the M240 with more power stock which appears to be on the heals of the M2 in the 1/4 mile. So, it's quite possible that with just a wider 18" tire and rim swap, brake pads, and maybe slightly stiffer springs, the M240 will generate M2 performance at the strip and on the track.

Will the M235/240 have the feel or sexy look of the M2? Nope, but it's quite easy and cheap to get it right in line with M2 numbers.

A few things to keep in mind:

You've got to be careful about inferring too much from a single test result. While the M2 didn't fare terribly well against the M235i in this test, this is only one test. You should consider the complete body of testing done on these two cars to get a more complete picture.

Differences in lap time aren't always intuitive. The lap times at this track are less than 1 minute. When your lap is this short, any tiny mistake can throw off your results.

AFAIK, the R&T does not use a consistent professional driver for their tests. They often report lap times that are set by different people, even within the same test. To say that their methodology is less than rigorous, would be kind.

Just because a car turns a lap time that is close doesn't mean that it feels the same on track. A soft suspension setup can actually provide more grip, but it will have less body control. This means you'll have plenty of grip for the corners, but the car will feel sloppy in transition. You can manage it, but it can steal away the fun. The contrast between a car like the M235i and the M2 is as much about the way they feel when driven hard as it is outright performance.

[XutvJet]

The factory eLSD on the M235/240 (which is only active in DSC Off) does a pretty dang good job of emulating a true LSD in all situations except perhaps a very tight slow speed turn with lots of throttle. In that situation, you can induce some momentary peg-legging. In all other driving modes, the stability and traction control systems intervene well in advance of letting a mechanical LSD (like the optional available for the M235/240) really work it's magic. My M235 doesn't have the LSD, but I can easily do on/off throttle drifts, two strips of rubber, etc. when in DSC Off. Also, in Sport+ I can get the back end to slide a bit a foot or two out, but it feels a bit wonky as the traction control/stability control are intervening a bit.

I have a really hard time seeing many M2 owners taking their cars such limits on a street where a true LSD would be beneficial. On the track, sure, but my guess is only a small minority really race these cars.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

A few things to keep in mind:

You've got to be careful about inferring too much from a single test result. While the M2 didn't fare terribly well against the M235i in this test, this is only one test. You should consider the complete body of testing done on these two cars to get a more complete picture.

Differences in lap time aren't always intuitive. The lap times at this track are less than 1 minute. When your lap is this short, any tiny mistake can throw off your results.

AFAIK, the R&T does not use a consistent professional driver for their tests. They often report lap times that are set by different people, even within the same test. To say that their methodology is less than rigorous, would be kind.

Just because a car turns a lap time that is close doesn't mean that it feels the same on track. A soft suspension setup can actually provide more grip, but it will have less body control. This means you'll have plenty of grip for the corners, but the car will feel sloppy in transition. You can manage it, but it can steal away the fun. The contrast between a car like the M235i and the M2 is as much about the way they feel when driven hard as it is outright performance.

The same semi-professional driver was used for the test. I understand the differences that short and long track can make, but the reality is that M235/240 is a lot closer to the M2's performance than some people want to believe. The M235/240 isn't as controlled or graceful, but it is quite close and minor improvements to those cars could have a big effect, especially just the tires which are rather narrow in stock form for a 3,400-3,500lb car like the M235/240.

Don't get me wrong, I think the M2 is a bargain and I love it, but I think you could outfit an M235/240 with just a few well-chosen parts and have nearly the same performance but with more options, potentially cheaper, less HEY LOOK AT ME! looks, etc. It can be a good option for some.

[Robin_NL]

You can tune the M2 as well and get a car with only 40/50 hp more but chassis tuning get it into GT3 territory at Sachsenring...


That's because The M2 as a base setup is already miles ahead from an M240i...

Cheers
Robin