[reppucci]

Originally Posted by doug_999

I can simply release the clutch and have power, but how you are turning in the snow in gear while in motion is beyond me. With all of my stick cars, clutching in, brings the rear in-line - keeping the power on, aka the wheels under power in a turn, will cause the car to spin (well if the traction control wasn't there )

Interesting. Automatic RWD drive cars don't go into neutral during turns. A manual should be no different.

If you take your foot off the gas pedal there shouldn't be any power to the wheels in a turn.

I find it much easier to drive a manual in the snow than any of my automatic non awd vehicles. I use mainly the right foot, gas pedal, to control the torque but being able to use the left foot can also be helpful. So typically while turning in snow i would keep my foot off the gas, not accelerate or accelerate slightly, until I am out of the turn.

The only time I think I would depress the clutch, while driving in snow, would be in a very slow turn...i.e. 90 degree i.e "right on red after stop"... where the idle speed or minimum rpm speed of the DME would "accelerate" the vehicle and cause wheel spin. In that case, or when starting from a dead stop, I would "feather" the clutch to modulate the wheel spin.

The other scenario would be a sudden deceleration or engine braking with a manual while turning in snow where the rear wheels would "lock" and your rear would lose traction. In snow I try to keep rpm's below 3k and avoid sudden accel or decel movements.

I will say the concept of clutch in during a turn, on dry pavement or snow covered, is very foreign to me..at many levels ...but I will try it over the next few days.. Will need to wait a while to try it in snow.

PS. I am old too. 60 next month. Last time I unwittingly spun a manual car in the snow, or rain for that matter, was 1981.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by reppucci

Interesting. Automatic RWD drive cars don't go into neutral during turns. A manual should be no different.

If you take your foot off the gas pedal there shouldn't be any power to the wheels in a turn.

I find it much easier to drive a manual in the snow than any of my automatic non awd vehicles. I use mainly the right foot, gas pedal, to control the torque but being able to use the left foot can also be helpful. So typically while turning in snow i would keep my foot off the gas, not accelerate or accelerate slightly, until I am out of the turn.

The only time I think I would depress the clutch would be in a very slow turn...i.e. 90 degree i.e "right on red after stop"... where the idle speed or minimum rpm speed of the DME would "accelerate" the vehicle and cause wheel spin. In that case, or when starting from a dead stop, I would "feather" the clutch to modulate the wheel spin.

The other scenario would be a sudden deceleration or engine braking with a manual while turning in snow where the rear wheels would "lock" and your rear would lose traction. In snow I try to keep rpm's below 3k and avoid sudden accel or decel movements.

I will say the concept of clutch in during a turn is very foreign to me..at many levels ...but I will try it over the next few days.. Will need to wait a while to try it in snow.

PS. I am old too. 60 next month. Last time I unwittingly spun a manual car in the snow, or rain for that matter, was 1981.

Too many old guys here!

I agree, a manual is much easier to control. I also think, that with the torque converter at work, an automatic trans does not direct linear power to the rear wheels like a stick car does.

And let's see, I last spun my 1991 Civic Si in ... 1991 Gawd those tires sucked.

[STK]

Yikes!!! I've attached some videos of a race car drivers working a manual with a insert of the footwork and some have an over the shoulder view showing the wheel, the stick, and the view out the front. What you'll see is that they're ALWAYS in gear (and trying to the keep the revs up in the sweet spot.) These vids show heel and toe technique as well as left foot breaking. With rev match in the M2 you don't have to learn H&T but I thought some folks might like the old videos of Senna. Back in the day, all the downshifting and braking was done in a straight line before the corner, typically downshifting gear by gear while rev matching heal and toe. Today (actually for quite a while), drivers will "trail brake" meaning finishing braking into the turn as it's faster once mastered.

Now these guys are at the limits of adhesion but they just don't let the car out of gear -- it's almost always loaded for control. And they have both hands on the wheel at 3 and 9. Do you need to do this on the street? No. But it's best practice. I was told to stay out of gear at red lights since keeping in the clutch would strain the throwout bearing. Those with mechanical knowledge, please chime in.

Footcam - heal and toe w/lots of left foot breaking (kids, don't try this a home without lots of practice)

Senna

(driving starts about 30 sec in.)

why to heel and toe by Scott Mansell - long technical explanation and more Senna

even a 15 year old can do it

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by STK

Yikes!!! I've attached some videos of a race car drivers working a manual with a insert of the footwork and some have an over the shoulder view showing the wheel, the stick, and the view out the front. What you'll see is that they're ALWAYS in gear (and trying to the keep the revs up in the sweet spot.)

Yep, not sure if I mentioned it earlier, but I'm aware that you stay in gear on the track (my instructor kept touching my left leg and once I learned he was not making a move on me, I got it).

And this was on the racetrack

The street, especially when covered in snow/ice, or you are not late for work and trying to make up time, is very different.

Cool videos nonetheless!

[M2Nebula]

Great vids. Too funny, no one wanted to ride shotgun with Senna in the NSX. Who ever was there and now looking back must be kicking themselves for not accepting the opportunity. Even in his dress loafers he could smoke most anyone.

These clips also represent what racing use to be and unfortunately is no longer. If this doesn't convince anyone that operating a manual gearbox/clutch takes any skill then they have been numbed to death by driving their autobox. And PLEASE don't throw auto rev matching out there again. I almost can't even watch F1 racing anymore. Every year it seems to get more boring, very little passing etc....The technology and sound is great, but that's about it. Off road rallying and MotoGp still holds some excitement level. Indoor stadiums and the Japanese domination of machinery took allot away from motocross. So on and so forth....

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by doug_999

I can simply release the clutch and have power, but how you are turning in the snow in gear while in motion is beyond me. With all of my stick cars, clutching in, brings the rear in-line - keeping the power on, aka the wheels under power in a turn, will cause the car to spin (well if the traction control wasn't there )

This makes no sense.

Pushing the clutch in just to turn is not the right way to drive a manual.

Every time you declutch (and then subsequently have to re-engage it), you're creating wear on the clutch. Sure, it's low especially at a low speed, but why create it at all? Leave the drivetrain connected to the motor unless you're about to stall.

If you gradually come off the throttle, the engine helps slow you down instead of just your brakes, and as someone else said, it helps keep the car balanced. Disconnecting and reconnecting the gearbox from the motor (declutching then letting it back out again) in the middle of the turn can upset things. Hell, drifters sometimes do it on purpose to begin a drift, it's called a "clutch kick" (obviously this is much more violent than what you're doing).

You're also adding more wear to the throwout bearing by holding in the clutch while you go around that corner.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by M2Nebula

Great vids. Too funny, no one wanted to ride shotgun with Senna in the NSX. Who ever was there and now looking back must be kicking themselves for not accepting the opportunity. Even in his dress loafers he could smoke most anyone.

These clips also represent what racing use to be and unfortunately is no longer. If this doesn't convince anyone that operating a manual gearbox/clutch takes any skill then they have been numbed to death by driving their autobox. And PLEASE don't throw auto rev matching out there again. I almost can't even watch F1 racing anymore. Every year it seems to get more boring, very little passing etc....The technology and sound is great, but that's about it. Off road rallying and MotoGp still holds some excitement level. Indoor stadiums and the Japanese domination of machinery took allot away from motocross. So on and so forth....

I would love a video of your guy's footwork while you skillfully manipulate the pedals driving to work on the street with your auto rev matched MT.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

This makes no sense.

Pushing the clutch in just to turn is not the right way to drive a manual.

Every time you declutch (and then subsequently have to re-engage it), you're creating wear on the clutch. Sure, it's low especially at a low speed, but why create it at all? Leave the drivetrain connected to the motor unless you're about to stall.

If you gradually come off the throttle, the engine helps slow you down instead of just your brakes, and as someone else said, it helps keep the car balanced. Disconnecting and reconnecting the gearbox from the motor (declutching then letting it back out again) in the middle of the turn can upset things. Hell, drifters sometimes do it on purpose to begin a drift, it's called a "clutch kick" (obviously this is much more violent than what you're doing).

You're also adding more wear to the throwout bearing by holding in the clutch while you go around that corner.

First off, there is basically no engine braking with a modern car.
Second, while you are wearing the clutch, it happens anyway when switching gears - so leaving the clutch in, only causes wear to the throw out bearing, cause you are switching gears anyway - either earlier or later.
Third, when was the last time you heard of a throw out bearing wearing out?

I do agree, that if you snap out the clutch mid-turn, you could upset the car.

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by doug_999

First off, there is basically no engine braking with a modern car.

I'd love to know where you're getting that from. The second I come off throttle in my TT, it's pretty obvious. The car definitely slows down, especially in a lower gear.

Now, in a modern BMW, I can imagine that if you're in comfort/eco mode, it might pull some silliness to allow the car to roll/coast more easily, but the principles of physics have not changed with the advance of technology. Closing the throttle (or in a VANOS-type system, reducing the amount of time the intake valves are open) causes a manifold vacuum, which the pistons have to work against to reciprocate, and this slows you down.

There are actually fuel saving benefits to in-gear coasting too - when you come off throttle, almost any modern car cuts fuel & spark and simply allows everything to spin under the power from the momentum of the car through the wheels. By pressing the clutch and disconnecting the gearbox, the engine has to go back into a standard idle, which will use fuel.

Second, while you are wearing the clutch, it happens anyway when switching gears - so leaving the clutch in, only causes wear to the throw out bearing, cause you are switching gears anyway - either earlier or later.
Third, when was the last time you heard of a throw out bearing wearing out?

Ok, I'll give you the second point. On the third point, I literally just saw two different episodes of Wheeler Dealers where they replaced the throwout bearing, one because it was actually whining and starting to go (on a BMW Z1, no less), and the other just because they had the gearbox out for other work. So is it common? Maybe not... but neither is a manual transmission these days. I certainly don't want to need to go through $500+ of labor to remove a gearbox and replace a $30 throwout bearing.

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by akkando

I would love a video of your guy's footwork while you skillfully manipulate the pedals driving to work on the street with your auto rev matched MT.

You are SO predictable!

Hey, try this with your M2 on the way to work.

https://m.wimp.com/ken-block-driftin...san-francisco/

[LinkF1]

The responses in this thread are ridiculous. So much good information and then followed with contradictory information.

I drove manual for my first 10 years of driving and had all sorts of bad habits when I started. I've since moved to the dark side (DCT) because I am an engineer and I love the technology.

When I started driving I had a manual 1992 318i, it had no power and I was lazy in my high school parking lot. I used the clutch to creep forward so that my classmates didn't cut in front of me. A few months later I learned what a throwout bearing is and how to replace a clutch, while my dad and I fixed the damage I had done.

What I learned: Throwout bearings are cheap, but they can overheat easily. When they do overheat, it is a PITA to fix them.

A couple of other lessons I learned from my father during the years I was learning manual:
1. The clutch should always be on its way in or on its way out. Never hold the clutch pedal in (aka riding the clutch), It is one of the sources of wear on the throwout bearing.
2. Downshift before the turn. You can do this in series or in parallel with braking. The best technique is to heel-toe (which is a misnomer in modern times) to brake and change gear at the same time. This is not a technique that should be reserved for the track, it has application on the street in many situations including going from 50 MPH to 15 MPH.
3. Never coast while not in gear. Being in gear protects you and those around you in the event of an emergency situation where you quickly need to make a change in direction or speed. The engine at idle is not as responsive as one under load.
4. To save fuel run in the highest gear possible that does not lug the engine. On the M2 this can be as low as 1300 RPM, on my 318i this was more like 1600 RPM.
5. Never take a turn when not in gear, you are not sure what obstacles you may encounter. If you are not in gear, the car will severely understeer and slow down the car significantly as the friction and rolling resistance of the tires overcome the forward motion.

I hope this helps the OP. To all who are offering conflicting advice, please do some research before posting, don't rely on the way you have been taught. There are real engineering-based reasons for all of the advice.

[STK]

"4. To save fuel run in the highest gear possible that does not lug the engine. On the M2 this can be as low as 1300 RPM, on my 318i this was more like 1600 RPM."

You may want to run a little higher if you want access to some hp and more torque without having to downshift. 1300 RPM is more than a little sluggish. The engine is running at about 80 HP. Hard to even speed up to change lanes in traffic at that rpm. What RPM does it cruise at in DCT comfort? What is the shift point?

[MrKepan]

Originally Posted by STK

"4. To save fuel run in the highest gear possible that does not lug the engine. On the M2 this can be as low as 1300 RPM, on my 318i this was more like 1600 RPM."

You may want to run a little higher if you want access to some hp and more torque without having to downshift. 1300 RPM is more than a little sluggish. The engine is running at about 80 HP. Hard to even speed up to change lanes in traffic at that rpm. What RPM does it cruise at in DCT comfort? What is the shift point?

Yes, gear selection (or rpm) largely depend on what the load the car is subject to.
Under high load, e.g. accelerating, going up hills, very high speed (wind drag) or any combination of the above, The motor needs to be at reasonably high rpm, thus lower gear at lower speed. otherwise you will "labor" the engine.

Under light load, e.g. cruising at low speed <40mph, downhill, coasting to a stop, the engine can be at low rpm, theoretically any rpm above idle rpm, usually 1500k

But as soon as you need to give it a little gas, you need to make sure the engine rpm is above 2000. the harder you intend to push the gas, the higher rpm the engine needs to be in before you do so.

[STK]

Originally Posted by MrKepan

Yes, gear selection (or rpm) largely depend on what the load the car is subject to.
Under high load, e.g. accelerating, going up hills, very high speed (wind drag) or any combination of the above, The motor needs to be at reasonably high rpm, thus lower gear at lower speed. otherwise you will "labor" the engine.

Under light load, e.g. cruising at low speed <40mph, downhill, coasting to a stop, the engine can be at low rpm, theoretically any rpm above idle rpm, usually 1500k

But as soon as you need to give it a little gas, you need to make sure the engine rpm is above 2000. the harder you intend to push the gas, the higher rpm the engine needs to be in before you do so.

I live in an urban area. Between switching lanes to get around around a turning car (often there are no turn lanes), making a light, or just keeping up with variable speed traffic makes running at 1300 rpm a trial. But if you live a place where you can cruise at 40 without the need to give it a little gas, I guess that would work fine. I run the X1 in comfort rather than ECO in the city a lot of the time and very occasionally in sport. Having a 365HP M2 running at 80 HP all the time seems to miss the point for me unless you track it a bunch, are cruising at higher RPMs above 40, or have a daily and just use it on occasion. Others my differ and I'm fine with it all. Just don't coast around the corner with the clutch pedal in.

[M2Nebula]

Acceleration is your friend and in most cases safer than hitting the brakes (Don't even get me going about people's merging/speed judgement skills!). Even with the M2's excellent torque down in the lower rpm range, I still prefer to have the motor revving at a reasonable number even if just tooling around. Easier to get out of a situation that way. Lugging a vehicle is normally bad for the drivetrain, but with modern trannies tied to high torque motors it isn't as detrimental as it once was. If you go by the shift indicator you'd be driving around at 1500 rpm most of the time. Granted this is for fuel economy, but it just doesn't feel right ro me.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by M2Nebula

Acceleration is your friend and in most cases safer than hitting the brakes (Don't even get me going about people's merging/speed judgement skills!). Even with the M2's excellent torque down in the lower rpm range, I still prefer to have the motor revving at a reasonable number even if just tooling around. Easier to get out of a situation that way. Lugging a vehicle is normally bad for the drivetrain, but with modern trannies tied to high torque motors it isn't as detrimental as it once was. If you go by the shift indicator you'd be driving around at 1500 rpm most of the time. Granted this is for fuel economy, but it just doesn't feel right ro me.

Here in California people drive 10-15 miles above the speed limit it seems... however.... they merge at 15 below the speed limit. Not sure what's up with that...

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by akkando

Here in California people drive 10-15 miles above the speed limit it seems... however.... they merges at 15 below the speed limit. Not sure what's up with that...

Okay, you got me wound up now!

I hear you dude, it's the silliest thing. The ramp onto the highway near my house is uphill and people actually slow down while merging. It's totally F'd up, can't tell you how many times that there have been near collisions.

Btw, I feel sorry for your parents when you were growing up. You must have pushed their buttons to the max....or at very least to 11

[LinkF1]

Originally Posted by STK

"4. To save fuel run in the highest gear possible that does not lug the engine. On the M2 this can be as low as 1300 RPM, on my 318i this was more like 1600 RPM."

You may want to run a little higher if you want access to some hp and more torque without having to downshift. 1300 RPM is more than a little sluggish. The engine is running at about 80 HP. Hard to even speed up to change lanes in traffic at that rpm. What RPM does it cruise at in DCT comfort? What is the shift point?

The DCT will automatically shift down at around 1100 RPM in higher gears when running the transmission in manual mode. I completely agree that higher than 1300 RPM is giving you access to more torque, but cruising on the open highway with no traffic around 1300 RPM should be perfectly acceptable.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by M2Nebula

Okay, you got me wound up now!

I hear you dude, it's the silliest thing. The ramp onto the highway near my house is uphill and people actually slow down while merging. It's totally F'd up, can't tell you how many times that there have been near collisions.

Btw, I feel sorry for your parents when you were growing up. You must have pushed their buttons to the max....or at very least to 11

Oh I was terrible. Still am.

I wish I could just ask these slow mergers why they are merging onto the highway at such a slow speed. They must think it's safer to do so?

[M2-007]

Originally Posted by LinkF1

The responses in this thread are ridiculous. So much good information and then followed with contradictory information.

I drove manual for my first 10 years of driving and had all sorts of bad habits when I started. I've since moved to the dark side (DCT) because I am an engineer and I love the technology.

When I started driving I had a manual 1992 318i, it had no power and I was lazy in my high school parking lot. I used the clutch to creep forward so that my classmates didn't cut in front of me. A few months later I learned what a throwout bearing is and how to replace a clutch, while my dad and I fixed the damage I had done.

What I learned: Throwout bearings are cheap, but they can overheat easily. When they do overheat, it is a PITA to fix them.

A couple of other lessons I learned from my father during the years I was learning manual:
1. The clutch should always be on its way in or on its way out. Never hold the clutch pedal in (aka riding the clutch), It is one of the sources of wear on the throwout bearing.
2. Downshift before the turn. You can do this in series or in parallel with braking. The best technique is to heel-toe (which is a misnomer in modern times) to brake and change gear at the same time. This is not a technique that should be reserved for the track, it has application on the street in many situations including going from 50 MPH to 15 MPH.
3. Never coast while not in gear. Being in gear protects you and those around you in the event of an emergency situation where you quickly need to make a change in direction or speed. The engine at idle is not as responsive as one under load.
4. To save fuel run in the highest gear possible that does not lug the engine. On the M2 this can be as low as 1300 RPM, on my 318i this was more like 1600 RPM.
5. Never take a turn when not in gear, you are not sure what obstacles you may encounter. If you are not in gear, the car will severely understeer and slow down the car significantly as the friction and rolling resistance of the tires overcome the forward motion.

I hope this helps the OP. To all who are offering conflicting advice, please do some research before posting, don't rely on the way you have been taught. There are real engineering-based reasons for all of the advice.

Thank you for the write up. For some one with little experience on how to drive a MT properly like myself, I found this write up to be most easy to understand and apply. I am also very glad the M2 comes with auto rev match. It is a bit too complicated for a beginner like me to do the rev match properly, especially applying the brake with the left foot and pressing the throttle at the same time as shown in the video.

[STK]

Originally Posted by M2-007

Thank you for the write up. For some one with little experience on how to drive a MT properly like myself, I found this write up to be most easy to understand and apply. I am also very glad the M2 comes with auto rev match. It is a bit too complicated for a beginner like me to do the rev match properly, especially applying the brake with the left foot and pressing the throttle at the same time as shown in the video.

Left foot braking seems a step beyond heel and toe. Some race drivers will H&T into a corner where they downshift and left foot brake modulating both brake and throttle in a bit of a seesaw in corners where a downshift isn't required. It takes some practice to get the feel of braking with the left foot. Typically folks press way too hard the first couple of times. I have run into people, now probably in the 70s, that were taught to left foot brake on an automatic way back in the day.

H&T like threshold breaking just takes practice. Almost everyone will get better with practice. Best to go to a track day with the BMW club or other group. Most folks are happy with a day or weekend and others turn it into a hobby. But it's fun just to see what the car do under safe conditions and with some instruction even if for a couple of days. It's pretty tiring too since there is so much to learn.

Congrats on the M2 MT! You'll more than make up in smiles for the lost 0.2 second to 60.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by akkando

I would love a video of your guy's footwork while you skillfully manipulate the pedals driving to work on the street with your auto rev matched MT.

I drive to work with DSC Off and my own footwork at times. your point? I still heel toe and revmatch in comfort/MDM throttle because I don't like the lazy rev matches the DME does too... helps with muscle memory too!