[champignon]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

I appreciate your candid subjective enthusiasm. That said, it mirrors the one-sided, unprecedented fanboyism abundantly found on the 1M board. You basically shat on a car that I’m sure you have no (extended) driving experience with.

Again, you are talking talk, and I am talking about the actual behavior of individuals. I couldn't care less what people post in online forums. If you think the 1M forum is full of "fanboyism," then you should go over and read some of the Porsche forums.

The M2 has one killer flaw, which is electric power steering, the iteration of which is better than any other current production BMW, but still stinks in comparison to the hydraulic power steering on ANY 1-Series car, even a "lowly" 128i. The M2 is better than other current BMWs because they have made the steering resistance more than in other modern cars, but the feedback from the road to the driver is still lacking. In addition, BMW went overboard with the dashboard and other instrumentation, which is distracting when actually driving, to say the least. Finally, the "rev-matching" is positively annoying to most people who actually know how to drive a manual transmission car; hopefully Carly or other coding software will allow this to be coded out, without having to turn off traction control.

If I thought it was a crappy car, I would not have bothered to test drive it (we went 20 miles, and out into the boonies, and I had ample opportunity to size up the vehicle), nor would I state that I'll likely buy one, at some point.

Still, it is what it is. The M2 is an unlimited production car that resembles other current BMWs in many ways, and the 1M is a very limited, rare, "parts-bin" car. BMW has a long history of making limited production, parts-bin cars that history shows to be "special," backed up peoples' actual purchasing behavior. The Z3M coupe is another one of these parts-bin cars, and people go to great lengths to buy one, even though they are now approaching 20 years of age.

No one will ever do that for the current M2. That is a fact, I am very sorry to report to you.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by champignon

Again, you are talking talk, and I am talking about the actual behavior of individuals. I couldn't care less what people post in online forums. If you think the 1M forum is full of "fanboyism," then you should go over and read some of the Porsche forums.

The M2 has one killer flaw, which is electric power steering, the iteration of which is better than any other current production BMW, but still stinks in comparison to the hydraulic power steering on ANY 1-Series car, even a "lowly" 128i. The M2 is better than other current BMWs because they have made the steering resistance more than in other modern cars, but the feedback from the road to the driver is still lacking. In addition, BMW went overboard with the dashboard and other instrumentation, which is distracting when actually driving, to say the least. Finally, the "rev-matching" is positively annoying to most people who actually know how to drive a manual transmission car; hopefully Carly or other coding software will allow this to be coded out, without having to turn off traction control.

If I thought it was a crappy car, I would not have bothered to test drive it (we went 20 miles, and out into the boonies, and I had ample opportunity to size up the vehicle), nor would I state that I'll likely buy one, at some point.

Still, it is what it is. The M2 is an unlimited production car that resembles other current BMWs in many ways, and the 1M is a very limited, rare, "parts-bin" car. BMW has a long history of making limited production, parts-bin cars that history shows to be "special," backed up peoples' actual purchasing behavior. The Z3M coupe is another one of these parts-bin cars, and people go to great lengths to buy one, even though they are now approaching 20 years of age.

No one will ever do that for the current M2. That is a fact, I am very sorry to report to you.

"Actual behavior of individuals"? So you've done some scientific studies? 'Cause most of what you say sounds more like anecdotal evidence or mere opinions, such as:

"...overboard with the dashboard and other instrumentation"
or
"...the 'rev-matching' is positively annoying to most people"

I didn't know there was a definitive historical definition of "special" - I thought special was relative. From a quantitative perspective, I agree the 1M is more special, and I also agree hydraulic steering will always be better than electric but, beyond that, the rest of your myriad posts knocking the M2 is just trolling.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by bobert

"Actual behavior of individuals"? So you've done some scientific studies? 'Cause most of what you say sounds more like anecdotal evidence or mere opinions, such as:

"...overboard with the dashboard and other instrumentation"
or
"...the 'rev-matching' is positively annoying to most people"

I didn't know there was a definitive historical definition of "special" - I thought special was relative. From a quantitative perspective, I agree the 1M is more special, and I also agree hydraulic steering will always be better than electric but, beyond that, the rest of your myriad posts knocking the M2 is just trolling.

First of all, I'm not knocking the M2. You seem so fragile that any criticism whatsoever of your pride and joy makes you squirm. That is MY definition of "fanboyism."

The 1M has flaws also, I don't think it is a perfect vehicle. But 20 years from now, those collectible 1Ms that still exist, will be highly sought after. The M2s? Not so much.

[Artemis]

bobert and champignon:

For a couple of my impressions and experiences regarding both the 1M and M2:

• http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...4#post22388504
• http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...5#post22414955

[akkando]

Originally Posted by champignon

Again, you are talking talk, and I am talking about the actual behavior of individuals. I couldn't care less what people post in online forums. If you think the 1M forum is full of "fanboyism," then you should go over and read some of the Porsche forums.

The M2 has one killer flaw, which is electric power steering, the iteration of which is better than any other current production BMW, but still stinks in comparison to the hydraulic power steering on ANY 1-Series car, even a "lowly" 128i. The M2 is better than other current BMWs because they have made the steering resistance more than in other modern cars, but the feedback from the road to the driver is still lacking. In addition, BMW went overboard with the dashboard and other instrumentation, which is distracting when actually driving, to say the least. Finally, the "rev-matching" is positively annoying to most people who actually know how to drive a manual transmission car; hopefully Carly or other coding software will allow this to be coded out, without having to turn off traction control.

If I thought it was a crappy car, I would not have bothered to test drive it (we went 20 miles, and out into the boonies, and I had ample opportunity to size up the vehicle), nor would I state that I'll likely buy one, at some point.

Still, it is what it is. The M2 is an unlimited production car that resembles other current BMWs in many ways, and the 1M is a very limited, rare, "parts-bin" car. BMW has a long history of making limited production, parts-bin cars that history shows to be "special," backed up peoples' actual purchasing behavior. The Z3M coupe is another one of these parts-bin cars, and people go to great lengths to buy one, even though they are now approaching 20 years of age.

No one will ever do that for the current M2. That is a fact, I am very sorry to report to you.

Rev match can be coded off if you were not aware.

[akkando]

How much of being special is related rarity? If there were 20k 1Ms in North America and only 740 M2s, and they were still making 1Ms but not M2s how much would that influence what's special?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by akkando

How much of being special is related rarity? If there were 20k 1Ms in North America and only 740 M2s, and they were still making 1Ms but not M2s how much would that influence what's special?

Originally Posted by champignon

The M2 is an unlimited production car that resembles other current BMWs in many ways, and the 1M is a very limited, rare, "parts-bin" car. BMW has a long history of making limited production, parts-bin cars that history shows to be "special," backed up peoples' actual purchasing behavior. The Z3M coupe is another one of these parts-bin cars, and people go to great lengths to buy one, even though they are now approaching 20 years of age.

No one will ever do that for the current M2. That is a fact, I am very sorry to report to you.

for what it's worth.. the M2 is NOT an " unlimited production vehicle " because PRODUCTION of the M2 is indeed LIMITED by BMW AG.

One cannot walk into ANY dealer and plunk down $55K and come away with an M2. One CAN walk into any dealer and plunk down 72K and pick up an M3 or M4.
@champignon - your comments about not being special or sought after in the future certainly can be applied to the M3/M4 but not the M2. As a matter of fact.. with only 150 M2 ZL9 performance vehicles sent to the US... I can gar-on-tee that those 150 in particular likely WILL be sought after in the future!

There were 740 1Ms delivered to the US of around 6300 worldwide.

So far there have been UNDER 4000 M2 delivered to the US.

Approximately 5,000 E30 M3 were brought to the United states of 17,000 worldwide.

So.. with production volume likely under 5-6,000 vehicles for all of US production.. all M2 will likely be sought after in the future.. although clearly they are not and will not be as rare as the 1M. The M2 has been well received in the market.. many prospective buyers have been forced to purchase another option (much like those that wanted a 1M) and as time goes on... it's likely that owners that missed out on local dealer allocations, didn't want to call 14 dealers to get an allocation , or didn't have the ability to wait 4 months for an M2 to be delivered.. likely will be looking for them in the used market.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by akkando

How much of being special is related rarity? If there were 20k 1Ms in North America and only 740 M2s, and they were still making 1Ms but not M2s how much would that influence what's special?

The 1M is "special" in a couple of ways. The first is that it was a rush-job, parts-bin special car that the bean counters didn't have the opportunity to turn into a car for Mom and Dad. So it is rough-around-the-edges in some endearing ways not typical of production BMWs. This alone would make it a favorite BMW M-car for a lot of people. The M2 in comparison is a much more polished product that popped out of normal channels, for better and for worse. I have a Z3M Coupe (the less-rare S52 variant) which is similarly a parts-bin car; no one in their right mind would produce an ugly car like that with the expectation that it would sell, and it didn't, yet it is still a terrific, and rare, car.

The second way that the 1M is special is that it is rare. It is human nature to want to have what you cannot have. Rarity drives pricing. If they had made 20,000 1Ms and they were all over the place, my guess is that they would depreciate like most any other BMW M-car, which is to say, "a lot."

[champignon]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

for what it's worth.. the M2 is not a MASS produced vehicle, However it is NOT an " unlimited production vehicle " because PRODUCTION of the M2 is indeed LIMITED by BMW AG.

One cannot walk into ANY dealer and plunk down $55K and come away with an M2. One CAN walk into any dealer and plunk down 72K and pick up an M3 or M4.
@champignon - your comments about not being special or sought after in the future certainly can be applied to the M3/M4 but not the M2. As a matter of fact.. with only 150 M2 ZL9 performance vehicles sent to the US... I can gar-on-tee that those 150 in particular likely WILL be sought after in the future!

There were 740 1Ms delivered to the US of around 6300 worldwide.

So far there have been UNDER 4000 M2 delivered to the US.

Approximately 5,000 E30 M3 were brought to the United states of 17,000 worldwide.

So.. with production volume likely under 5-6,000 vehicles for all of US production.. all M2 will likely be sought after in the future.. although clearly they are not and will not be as rare as the 1M. The M2 has been well received in the market.. many prospective buyers have been forced to purchase another option (much like those that wanted a 1M) and as time goes on... it's likely that owners that missed out on local dealer allocations, didn't want to call 14 dealers to get an allocation , or didn't have the ability to wait 4 months for an M2 to be delivered.. likely will be looking for them in the used market.

Howdy,

What you are leaving out is that the M2 is a line of cars that will be continually refreshed. New models will come and go, and production will meet demand because BMW is in the business of making money (as well they should be). As new versions come out, the old ones will be viewed as less desirable by most car buyers, who understandably are after the accoutrements and prestige of owning a new car.

The 1M was an experiement, and no more of them will ever be made. The absence of any new ones makes the old ones frozen in time, never to be replaced. That combined with some real differences, such as hydraulic steering which will not be put into any newer BMWs, seals the deal.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by champignon

Howdy,

What you are leaving out is that the M2 is a line of cars that will be continually refreshed. New models will come and go, and production will meet demand because BMW is in the business of making money (as well they should be). As new versions come out, the old ones will be viewed as less desirable by most car buyers, who understandably are after the accoutrements and prestige of owning a new car.

The 1M was an experiement, and no more of them will ever be made. The absence of any new ones makes the old ones frozen in time, never to be replaced. That combined with some real differences, such as hydraulic steering which will not be put into any newer BMWs, seals the deal.

check the history books on the E36 M3 which was " continually refreshed" and you may want to edit your post.

The E36 M3 was produced in two door form as a 1995 model with Bosch ECU and OBD-I
Engine " improved " on the two door in 1996 which switched to Siemens ECU and OBD-II
Then the 4 door option was available from 1997-1998.
Finally... the last year of production was back to coupes only in 1999.

Are any of the 1995 models considerably LESS desirable than 96 and up? or 97 and up?
is the last year they were made in 1999 considered to be vastly more desirable than a 1995 ?

The M2 has an engine update coming, yes. heck.. it's even had an LCI also... but.. alike a car you mentioned previously.. the E36 Z3...

The original E36 M came with an S50 motor. Then the S52 for 01-02 model years. The S52 models of course are more desired.. but a pristine E36 Z3 with either motor still is a desirable car. I imagine the M2 will be the same. The N55 already has it's own following. Some people even prefer the N55 version over the S55.... meaning that even if an M2 competition comes out.. many will still prefer the plebeian N55 M2... just as there are many that preferred the OBD1 E36 M3 motor..

[champignon]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

check the history books on the E36 M3 which was " continually refreshed" and you may want to edit your post.

The E36 M3 was produced in two door form as a 1995 model with Bosch ECU and OBD-I
Engine " improved " on the two door in 1996 which switched to Siemens ECU and OBD-II
Then the 4 door option was available from 1997-1998.
Finally... the last year of production was back to coupes only in 1999.

Are any of the 1995 models considerably LESS desirable than 96 and up? or 97 and up?
is the last year they were made in 1999 considered to be vastly more desirable than a 1995 ?

The M2 has an engine update coming, yes. heck.. it's even had an LCI also... but.. alike a car you mentioned previously.. the E36 Z3...

The original E36 M came with an S50 motor. Then the S52 for 01-02 model years. The S52 models of course are more desired.. but a pristine E36 Z3 with either motor still is a desirable car. I imagine the M2 will be the same. The N55 already has it's own following. Some people even prefer the N55 version over the S55.... meaning that even if an M2 competition comes out.. many will still prefer the plebeian N55 M2... just as there are many that preferred the OBD1 E36 M3 motor..

I am not saying that there is zero demand for an E36 M3, whatever version and whatever it has to offer. Likewise, there is demand for an E46 M3 in good condition, especially lower mileage and unmolested examples, which are becoming harder to find. I have looked at many of these cars over the years, and watched them SIT and SIT and SIT on Autotrader and all the other sites, even when asking prices were reasonable, for what they were. Ultimately they may sell, but the quantity of them that are out there is a hindrance.

If you put a lower mileage 5MT (was not sold in AT form), good condition Z3M Coupe up for sale at a market price in most any moderate or larger city in the USA, someone locally is going to buy your car quickly, or someone will fly out from another city to buy it, within a week. Of course, some people are trying to get exorbitant sums for their cars, and then this won't apply. When I bought my single-owner Z3M coupe from an Oregon seller ~3 years ago, I responded to the seller's Craigslist posting about 5 minutes after it went up and bought my airplane ticket to pick it up the next morning after he agreed to sell it to me. By the time I got there 2 days later, he had turned down multiple local offers for the car, including some where the prospective buyer offered to pay a few thousand more than we had agreed to on the phone.

This is not going to happen with an E36 M3, an E46 M3, nor an M2, I am sorry to tell you. These are not cult cars, and they are not rare enough. It will happen with 1Ms, in a few years time.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by champignon

First of all, I'm not knocking the M2. You seem so fragile that any criticism whatsoever of your pride and joy makes you squirm. That is MY definition of "fanboyism."

The 1M has flaws also, I don't think it is a perfect vehicle. But 20 years from now, those collectible 1Ms that still exist, will be highly sought after. The M2s? Not so much.

That's the first time I've been accused of being a 'fanboy' of anything!

Apparently you can't tell the difference between criticism and trolling, 'cause you clearly fall into the latter category. I never claimed the M2 was perfect and I'm open to constructive criticism, but you going on and on about how you think it's "not special" (4 times in that one post and that was not your first post rambling on like that) hardly qualifies as 'constructive criticism'. You claim you couldn't care less what other people post, yet you can't resist replying to anyone who calls you out on your trolling comments.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by Artemis

bobert and champignon:

For a couple of my impressions and experiences regarding both the 1M and M2:

• http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...4#post22388504
• http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...5#post22414955

Nice commentary, thanks - I've enjoyed reading comparisons of the 1M & the M2 from you, Doug_999, and M3 Adjuster, simply 'cause I really like both cars. Neither is perfect - no car is - but it certainly sounds like the 1M is a little more raw and has an undeniable advantage of hydraulic steering.

I briefly considered getting a 1M when it was new, but had to pass since I really needed a larger car with 4 doors since I had small kids at the time. So I waited until the following year and spent similar money on a new 335i M Sport, which was a very nice car though I wasn't overly impressed with the suspension or steering.

[Benzima]

I own both the 1M and the M2. I can tell I love both cars and they are each special and different. Don't ask me which one I prefer tho

[bobert]

Originally Posted by champignon

The 1M is "special" in a couple of ways. The first is that it was a rush-job, parts-bin special car that the bean counters didn't have the opportunity to turn into a car for Mom and Dad. So it is rough-around-the-edges in some endearing ways not typical of production BMWs. This alone would make it a favorite BMW M-car for a lot of people. The M2 in comparison is a much more polished product that popped out of normal channels, for better and for worse. I have a Z3M Coupe (the less-rare S52 variant) which is similarly a parts-bin car; no one in their right mind would produce an ugly car like that with the expectation that it would sell, and it didn't, yet it is still a terrific, and rare, car.

The second way that the 1M is special is that it is rare. It is human nature to want to have what you cannot have. Rarity drives pricing. If they had made 20,000 1Ms and they were all over the place, my guess is that they would depreciate like most any other BMW M-car, which is to say, "a lot."

Well said in this case.

[champignon]

As I have repeatedly stated, the odds are very high that I will buy an M2, and if I had to guess I would say probably within a year. The cost is not an issue to me, although I like to get value for money. If I do buy this car then I would almost certainly trade in my 135i Coupe on it, which I have modified somewhat so I would lose all of that added value.

I would buy the M2 for a reason stated repeatedly by my friend NachoB; the car is NOT rare and NOT irreplaceable as is the 1M. Therefore, you can drive it without worrying about it. Believe it or not, that is actually something of value, coming from someone with several cars that would be difficult if not impossible to replace. There are a number of circumstances when I would avoid driving any of these "irreplaceable" cars, and in the end, I do like to drive.

[BimmerMat135]

I like to see how far the 1M legacy has come it was created under a restricted budget without bmw approval under the shadow of the M3. Yet it still is the best driving bmw of the last decade. In Canada you can now have a M2 for less money than the 1M not bad for a 6 years old fake M car

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by bobert

Well said in this case.

Yep, he stated two objective, unbiased reasons. Kudos to him.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

I like to see how far the 1M legacy has come it was created under a restricted budget without bmw approval under the shadow of the M3. Yet it still is the best driving bmw of the last decade. In Canada you can now have a M2 for less money than the 1M not bad for a 6 years old fake M car

The story is essentially the same on the Z3M Coupe, which was a nights and weekends hobby project of some BMW engineers, working off of the Z3/M Convertible (James Bond Car). Ugly as sin and ultimately nicknamed the "clownshoe" for its appearance, there were only about 10K coupes made, of which roughly half were sold in North America. 60% were "Ms" and the rest the standard, non-M variant. The non-M could have been had as an automatic, but all of the M's were 5MT. BMW made a major design error in these cars, both coupe and convertible, in that the rear subframe was not reinforced to keep up with the increasingly powerful engines they put into these things over the model years. The result was rampant rear subframe failure/delamination, not unlike what was associated with the earlier years of the E46 M3. There are fixes, but they aren't cheap.

The final production of the Z3M Coupe were those with the coveted S54 engine, making 315 hp, which unfortunately were the most likely of these cars to develop rear subframe failure, due to the powerful engine. I have the S52 variant, which is less desirable as a collectible, but still lots of fun to drive.

Collectible BMW cars that hold their value better than other BMWs are basically all very limited production. Granted, over time there will be a large drop off as cars age, are worn out, and not maintained. The E30 M3 is certainly highly valued now, but who has the time to wait for any current car to age that long, to be "valuable?" The odds of any current M2 (or other) owner to still own their car 20+ years from now are small.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by champignon

The 1M is "special" in a couple of ways. The first is that it was a rush-job, parts-bin special car that the bean counters didn't have the opportunity to turn into a car for Mom and Dad. So it is rough-around-the-edges in some endearing ways not typical of production BMWs. This alone would make it a favorite BMW M-car for a lot of people. The M2 in comparison is a much more polished product that popped out of normal channels, for better and for worse. I have a Z3M Coupe (the less-rare S52 variant) which is similarly a parts-bin car; no one in their right mind would produce an ugly car like that with the expectation that it would sell, and it didn't, yet it is still a terrific, and rare, car.
The second way that the 1M is special is that it is rare. It is human nature to want to have what you cannot have. Rarity drives pricing. If they had made 20,000 1Ms and they were all over the place, my guess is that they would depreciate like most any other BMW M-car, which is to say, "a lot."

Unlike most cars, the 1M keeps (very) good value because it's a great car, 'appreciated' rather than 'depreciated' over time. Considered by many to be worth its salt in the past and present. Resale prices reflect that common point of view.

Example (someone reviewed a 1M last Summer):