[W///]

Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete

Agreed. I just wasn't expecting BMW to limit it this much.

I know it's still all rumor and conjecture, but so far:

No S55 or bespoke motor of any kind
No CF roof
Very limited exterior color choices
Non-existent interior color choices
Non-impressive power figures.

I now await further news with a mixture of anticipatory excitement and mild dull dread.

In the end, if this is really going to end up being just a M235i with a tune, suspension and bodywork a la 1M then BMW just needs to price it accordingly and all will be right with the world

In terms of performance, I still don't understand what you guys expected. Take 320 hp (M235i) + 420 hp (from M3/4), divide by 2 = 372 hp. Right along the lines of what Dackel said
Take 330 ft lbs ( M235i ) + 406 ft lbs (M3/4), divide by 2 = 368 ft lbs. Same thing again.

Again, if you have been following this forum, then you'd know for a while that a tweaked N55 was going to be the engine for the M2, regardless of what these fools that came up with the S58 say.

I don't know about you guys, but an extra 20-30 hp and 30 ft-lbs is not what is going to turn me away from this car. Maybe I'm getting used to my lowly US spec S52 with 240 hp

Now if BMW came out and said they were going to use the EPS and transmission from the M235i instead of the M3/4, then that would be a completely different story for me.

[Ritz42]

Originally Posted by W///

In terms of performance, I still don't understand what you guys expected. Take 320 hp (M235i) + 420 hp (from M3/4), divide by 2 = 372 hp. Right along the lines of what Dackel said
Take 330 ft lbs ( M235i ) + 406 ft lbs (M3/4), divide by 2 = 368 ft lbs. Same thing again.

Again, if you have been following this forum, then you'd know for a while that a tweaked N55 was going to be the engine for the M2, regardless of what these fools that came up with the S58 say.

I don't know about you guys, but an extra 20-30 hp and 30 ft-lbs is not what is going to turn me away from this car. Maybe I'm getting used to my lowly US spec S52 with 240 hp

Now if BMW came out and said they were going to use the EPS and transmission from the M235i instead of the M3/4, then that would be a completely different story for me.

I could be wrong here, but I believe that the M235, M3/4 and 1m all use the same manual trans. I think they might have slightly different ratios, but the box is the same.

[Die ///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by W///

In terms of performance, I still don't understand what you guys expected. Take 320 hp (M235i) + 420 hp (from M3/4), divide by 2 = 372 hp. Right along the lines of what Dackel said
Take 330 ft lbs ( M235i ) + 406 ft lbs (M3/4), divide by 2 = 368 ft lbs. Same thing again.

Again, if you have been following this forum, then you'd know for a while that a tweaked N55 was going to be the engine for the M2, regardless of what these fools that came up with the S58 say.

I don't know about you guys, but an extra 20-30 hp and 30 ft-lbs is not what is going to turn me away from this car. Maybe I'm getting used to my lowly US spec S52 with 240 hp

Now if BMW came out and said they were going to use the EPS and transmission from the M235i instead of the M3/4, then that would be a completely different story for me.

I understand everything you are saying. My disappointment stems from the fact that I already owned a similar car to what BMW is apparently going to deliver again which was my 1M.

I was really hoping for an evolution of the concept, not a repeat of it.

Again, there is no disappointment to be had if the delta in price between the M2 and the M235i is equal to the delta in price between the 1M and the 135i since the amount of borrowed running gear will be the same in each case.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Ritz42

I could be wrong here, but I believe that the M235, M3/4 and 1m all use the same manual trans. I think they might have slightly different ratios, but the box is the same.

Yea I wasn't sure about that. I'd like to see the rev match feature though (as long as you could still turn it off)

Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete

I understand everything you are saying. My disappointment stems from the fact that I already owned a similar car to what BMW is apparently going to deliver again which was my 1M.

I was really hoping for an evolution of the concept, not a repeat of it.

Again, there is no disappointment to be had if the delta in price between the M2 and the M235i is equal to the delta in price between the 1M and the 135i since the amount of borrowed running gear will be the same in each case.

That, I completely understand my friend. If you already own a 1M, I wouldn't really see the point of an M2 unless you just wanted a warranty. But for the rest of us that missed the 1M bandwagon for whatever reason, this M2 is very exciting!

That was BMW's plan all along though. Why mess with the 1M's formula when it was SO good. If the M2 can really live up to its Pyrat 2 code name, I'll be more than satisfied.

[technik330]

To me, pardon me if I've missed this 'bigger picture' elsewhere in the forum, I believe the M2 is designed to mimic the driving pleasure of the 1M, albeit slightly modernized, and be more widely available.

Production will most likely still be limited, but I doubt we'll be limited to 1 MY and it'll be enough to wet enough appetites to drive sales up market to the M3/M4.

I don't think the M2 will be a real evolution, so much as a honing of sorts. It's still based off the equivalent entry model, will be 'massaged', and offer 7/10 the performance of an M3/M4 for 75-80% the cost of an M3/M4.

I still think this car will be special, but it's annoying that there could be a 'special' model and we haven't even seen the 'base' yet.

[Sephiroth]

I wanted AY and cloth. Think ill go M3 instead.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

This comment makes zero sense.

If Chevrolet makes a camaro would you expect it to be a faster, better car than the corvette ?

I wouldn't because Chevrolet never intends to make a car Better than the corvette as it is their top model!

So
Why on earth would you ever make such a comment? I see this comment about the cayman/boxster and 911 in the Porsche lineup and with other manufacturers as well.


Apparently people are expecting manufacturers to just completely change their mission ?

Here is the thing. The Corvette outside of a few GM cars like the Opel GT and the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky has always been the lightest car.
But, there was a car that out performed the Corvette, and that was the Buck GNX. A turbo V6 car. A rarity that Chevy allowed to happen.

The Camaro (1st and 2nd gen) often times could be spec'd out to have a bigger engine than the base or lower engined Vette, but as far as handling, the Vette had it covered with it's IRS and lighter weight.

Now, the M3 has increasingly gained weight. Thanks in part to safety regs and tech, and to the customers---many who are not enthusiasts, some who are poseurs, who want the "GT Luxury Experience" (you know they are).
BMW saw the need for a smaller chassis. That weighs less than the 3 series. An entry level chassis, to take the place that the 3 series used to hold. This is unlike GM developing the Camaro. The Camaro was bigger than the Corvette, and always will be.

M engineers already know the merits of this smaller chassis, because it was reported that there was an internal fight in BMW where M engineers wanted to keep a RWD 2 chassis for the next gen. This shows you how bad it has gotten. The higher ups are looking at profit and less at "core values".

So, you have a lighter car than the 4 series---which means that chances are an M variant would be lighter than the M4. What to do? You know damn well BMW AG is not letting that car out of the factory with the same engine as the M3/M4. Even though they have done the same with the Clownshoe and the Z4M Coupe.
And while we're at it, no CF roof, even though that has now become an M hallmark--- e46 M3 CSL, last gen M6, M3 coupe got it, and now the current M6, M6 Gran Coupe, M3/M4 have it. So, why not show the heritage of this M car? My guess is part cost, part hassle, and part "less not make it too good".


If I remember correctly, there were several proposals for the 1M, and they had been knocked down by higher ups, they wanted something more feasible, and I suspect that happened with the M2. But, they decided that we could get a more hardcore version, which I guess might even be dependent on the take rate of the M2.

[SCOTT26]

Here we go again.
The matrix has reloaded in which the same comments that came in the waiting period for the 1er M Coupe in regards to its just an M235i with a tune mirror its just a 135i with a tune from a few years back.
If you still think the 1er M Coupe is a 135i with a tune then you have never driven the 1er M Coupe because if you jump straight into a 1er M Coupe from a 135i you know instantly , you feel instantly and then there is the all important goosebumps as 1er M Coupe continues to be a very sensual car as well as respected its a future classic.

I have not driven the M2 but those that have testify to the same philosophy that its is not just amore powerful M235i and that character and behaviour is in a league of its own.

I am not as close to M2 as I was to 1er M Coupe so I can only update on what I hear or what I see in the FIZ car park but it is an exciting looking car , more muscular and pronounced than the M235i as well as using a new direction of function through form with its dramatic aerodynamics that make sure that its not just an M235i in appearance.

We will learn more this Summer.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Here we go again.
The matrix has reloaded in which the same comments that came in the waiting period for the 1er M Coupe in regards to its just an M235i with a tune mirror its just a 135i with a tune from a few years back.
If you still think the 1er M Coupe is a 135i with a tune then you have never driven the 1er M Coupe because if you jump straight into a 1er M Coupe from a 135i you know instantly , you feel instantly and then there is the all important goosebumps as 1er M Coupe continues to be a very sensual car as well as respected its a future classic.

I have not driven the M2 but those that have testify to the same philosophy that its is not just amore powerful M235i and that character and behaviour is in a league of its own.

I am not as close to M2 as I was to 1er M Coupe so I can only update on what I hear or what I see in the FIZ car park but it is an exciting looking car , more muscular and pronounced than the M235i as well as using a new direction of function through form with its dramatic aerodynamics that make sure that its not just an M235i in appearance.

We will learn more this Summer.

I got to hand it to you Scott, you can bring it...and then the last part...that put a smile on my face, as you know that would make people's tongues wag.

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Here we go again.
The matrix has reloaded in which the same comments that came in the waiting period for the 1er M Coupe in regards to its just an M235i with a tune mirror its just a 135i with a tune from a few years back.
If you still think the 1er M Coupe is a 135i with a tune then you have never driven the 1er M Coupe because if you jump straight into a 1er M Coupe from a 135i you know instantly , you feel instantly and then there is the all important goosebumps as 1er M Coupe continues to be a very sensual car as well as respected its a future classic.

I have not driven the M2 but those that have testify to the same philosophy that its is not just amore powerful M235i and that character and behaviour is in a league of its own.

I am not as close to M2 as I was to 1er M Coupe so I can only update on what I hear or what I see in the FIZ car park but it is an exciting looking car , more muscular and pronounced than the M235i as well as using a new direction of function through form with its dramatic aerodynamics that make sure that its not just an M235i in appearance.

We will learn more this Summer.

Thank you. This is what W/// and I have been saying the whole time. I'm excited!

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Here we go again.
The matrix has reloaded in which the same comments that came in the waiting period for the 1er M Coupe in regards to its just an M235i with a tune mirror its just a 135i with a tune from a few years back.
If you still think the 1er M Coupe is a 135i with a tune then you have never driven the 1er M Coupe because if you jump straight into a 1er M Coupe from a 135i you know instantly , you feel instantly and then there is the all important goosebumps as 1er M Coupe continues to be a very sensual car as well as respected its a future classic.

I have not driven the M2 but those that have testify to the same philosophy that its is not just amore powerful M235i and that character and behaviour is in a league of its own.

I am not as close to M2 as I was to 1er M Coupe so I can only update on what I hear or what I see in the FIZ car park but it is an exciting looking car , more muscular and pronounced than the M235i as well as using a new direction of function through form with its dramatic aerodynamics that make sure that its not just an M235i in appearance.

We will learn more this Summer.

Agree with all of it...but it still doesn't change the fact that the M2 may very likely get a motor that's inferior to the 1M, all these years later, at last from a power potential department.

For some, that's nothing to sneeze at. Too early to get too wrapped up in it...who knows that the engine will actually bring to the table...

But, honestly, I just don't see how (unless you're dead-set on the car and therefore going to defend it no matter what) you wouldn't be disappointed if the M2's motor was nothing much more than an M235's N55 with a tune.

So the latest and greatest M2 not only gets the same motor as it's more pedestrian 2 series (again, never the case with the 1M), and not only that, but it's a worse motor than the 1M.

Again, these cars are about the sum of their parts. And no doubt the M2 will of course be the superior car in the was an M car should...

But there's no reason to ignore it. Motors were always an important part of the M package. In some instances, they were the centerpiece of the car. They are no less important today than in models past. And by that standard, the M2 might be the most disappointing M car ever (which of course I will still buy and love ).

But an M235 with an option LSD, some bushing upgrades, and a set of coilovers...well...that might be the more prudent performance buy...especially for a guy not taking the car to the track.

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by e82n54

I wasn't going to post since this thread is already 26 pages long, but just in case BMW listens to us I will post...

I am extremely disappointed with the power projections. I have a 2009 135i (N54) with a mild tune and no other engine upgrades. My 2009 135i with this mild tune has significantly more power than the projected M2. That's just not right. My car is 7 years older and it's not an M and it has easily more power. What a let down!!!!! I was planning to buy an M2, but not anymore!!!

LOL okay, don't by the M2, we'll all enjoy the hell out of them without you

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

The higher ups are looking at profit and less at "core values".

Hm, something from outer space is just around the corner.


(http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1126277)

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Agree with all of it...but it still doesn't change the fact that the M2 may very likely get a motor that's inferior to the 1M, all these years later, at last from a power potential department.

For some, that's nothing to sneeze at. Too early to get too wrapped up in it...who knows that the engine will actually bring to the table...

But, honestly, I just don't see how (unless you're dead-set on the car and therefore going to defend it no matter what) you wouldn't be disappointed if the M2's motor was nothing much more than an M235's N55 with a tune.

So the latest and greatest M2 not only gets the same motor as it's more pedestrian 2 series (again, never the case with the 1M), and not only that, but it's a worse motor than the 1M.

Again, these cars are about the sum of their parts. And no doubt the M2 will of course be the superior car in the was an M car should...

But there's no reason to ignore it. Motors were always an important part of the M package. In some instances, they were the centerpiece of the car. They are no less important today than in models past. And by that standard, the M2 might be the most disappointing M car ever (which of course I will still buy and love ).

But an M235 with an option LSD, some bushing upgrades, and a set of coilovers...well...that might be the more prudent performance buy...especially for a guy not taking the car to the track.

I don't understand this.

You should take Scott's advice and brush up on your 1M history. When it was finally revealed that the N54T as chosen, the room rolled over and everyone clamored about how they were going to buy a 'what's the difference' 135i (+aftermarket tune) or E9X M3 instead.

M cars are about more than the sum of their parts. They balance performance and utility with near-sports car competence at 9/10ths. Their motors are important, but (IMHO) they shouldn't define the car, they should compliment the chassis. This ethos is exemplified by the E30 M3. The S14 was no peach- it was lumpy and only came alive at V-Tech friendly RPM- but the E30 is still revered as origin of ///M's DNA.

Fact is, we don't know what M has done to the N55 in the M2. But we do know that the 1M- from which the M2 will draw heavy inspiration- also used a series engine and that the only other N55 derivative (the S55) is tremendous.

Moreover, the N55 is wonderful series engine. I haven't yet read a review of hte M235i that faulted it's power plant. I'd add, anecdotally, that in stock trim, I prefer the N55's power delivery to that of the N54. With a few 1M-like tweaks to the N55 and it's inherently better cooling, it could be a hell of compliment to the M2's chassis.

Relax, brew yourself some tea and give M the benefit of the doubt.

/rant over.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Hm, something from outer space is just around the corner.


(http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1126277)

I was thinking the same thing when I saw this pic. And chances are if this is a preview of the M2 CSL (which I believe Scott26 had alluded to in a previous post as a e9 CSL type of car), then it may be even more limited.

Now, here is the bigger question, will this also be a debut of the M2 as well?

[Die ///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by cSurf

Relax, brew yourself some tea and give M the benefit of the doubt.

Great advice

[W///]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Hm, something from outer space is just around the corner.


(http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1126277)

Hmmm, interesting. Looks like a busy summer/fall ahead for BMW. I wonder if the front will have cues from the M2. I doubt it will but this should be a cool concept. I love the 3.0 CSL

Originally Posted by cSurf

I don't understand this.

You should take Scott's advice and brush up on your 1M history. When it was finally revealed that the N54T as chosen, the room rolled over and everyone clamored about how they were going to buy a 'what's the difference' 135i (+aftermarket tune) or E9X M3 instead.

M cars are about more than the sum of their parts. They balance performance and utility with near-sports car competence at 9/10ths. Their motors are important, but (IMHO) they shouldn't define the car, they should compliment the chassis. This ethos is exemplified by the E30 M3. The S14 was no peach- it was lumpy and only came alive at V-Tech friendly RPM- but the E30 is still revered as origin of ///M's DNA.

Fact is, we don't know what M has done to the N55 in the M2. But we do know that the 1M- from which the M2 will draw heavy inspiration- also used a series engine and that the only other N55 derivative (the S55) is tremendous.

Moreover, the N55 is wonderful series engine. I haven't yet read a review of hte M235i that faulted it's power plant. I'd add, anecdotally, that in stock trim, I prefer the N55's power delivery to that of the N54. With a few 1M-like tweaks to the N55 and it's inherently better cooling, it could be a hell of compliment to the M2's chassis.

Relax, brew yourself some tea and give M the benefit of the doubt.

/rant over.

I actually wrote a big response and decided to delete it. Glad I did because yours is way better anyway

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

I was thinking the same thing when I saw this pic. And chances are if this is a preview of the M2 CSL (which I believe Scott26 had alluded to in a previous post as a e9 CSL type of car), then it may be even more limited.
Now, here is the bigger question, will this also be a debut of the M2 as well?

References to E9 Batmobile inspiration by 'The Sipping One' (yeah, Kermit's color is similar to the prototype's body color):
http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=45
http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=26

[Rupes]

When the 1M was released, BMW as a organization had a lot going for it to an enthusiast buyer. Hydraulic steering, no engine noise played through the cabin, extras (nav, power seats, etc) could be left off the car to create the ultimate driving machine. We know all of this extra fluff, technology and efficiency will be built into the new M2 - like it or not. THAT is what concerns me, not the engine. Its the little things over time that can make for an irritating experience.

I'll still probably get one because there aren't a lot of better choices, but BMW has certainly shifted their passion over the last 10 years from driving excellence to a softer, more luxurious car. Interested to see how this one turns out!

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by W///

Hmmm, interesting. Looks like a busy summer/fall ahead for BMW. I wonder if the front will have cues from the M2. I doubt it will but this should be a cool concept. I love the 3.0 CSL

I actually wrote a big response and decided to delete it. Glad I did because yours is way better anyway

I should say that I haven't always felt this way. I was sad to see the S65 go... but I've come to realize that turbo, series-derived M motors weren't necessarily a decision BMW wanted to make, but one that regulation forced.

Fortunately, the N54 was originally developed for use by M. The N55 that followed saw several platform improvements (single twin scroll charger, valvetronic, better cooling, etc.) that make modified versions great candidates for M duty (see the S65).

BMW knows they need to get the M2 right- IMHO they have the balance sheet, engineering talent and culture to do so.

Fingers crossed.

[filet.M2c]

Originally Posted by W///

I'd like to see the rev match feature though (as long as you could still turn it off)

+1, hope to see it make it to the M2

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

We will learn more this Summer.

Thanks for the info! And a big thanks for continuing to feed our curiousity about this car. I get what is special about the 1M and can't wait for the M2, its going to rock and I'm very excited to be one of the first in line for one!