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BMW M2 Forum > M2 vs... > '17 M2 vs. '18 M2LCI w/moonroof

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      06-21-2017, 09:24 PM   #23
coralcaves
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So I am week 24.....AKA the VERY last week of 2017...I'm also doing PCD with a tentative date very close to yours for delivery and my car is also waiting the train/boat ride. I'm doing my best to get any discount I can out of my sales guy...being 6'4" I'm not interested in the moonroof...but aside from that we're close. I'm sticking with it...but hopeful I can get something off MSRP to make me feel perfect about it all. Good luck and either way I think you'll end up happy!
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      06-21-2017, 09:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
The roof weight is almost certainly statistically insignificant, even if it is at the top of the car. I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference in a blind track comparison.

The reason BMW uses CF roofs on F8x is not really for performance reasons, it's because it looks cool and it's a marketing bullet point. I am sure for the price of R&D on that roof you could buy better dampers or something that has a measurable impact, but BMW is also trying to develop their carbon fiber manufacturing and bonding technologies for other purposes.
I still believe roof weight is quite important and BMW did not just add CF roof for just cosmetic purposes. Weight distribution higher up top causes whole lot more body roll than the same weight more on the bottom. Try heavy helmet when taking on corners hard and see how you neck is so much more affected by the weight of the helmet.

Last edited by K1won; 06-21-2017 at 09:40 PM..
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      06-21-2017, 09:29 PM   #25
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Good news - I just heard that M Performance is coming out with a carbon fiber training wheel package to help keep the M2 off its doors!
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      06-21-2017, 09:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
If you think you're feeling 20 or 30 pounds over your head in a casual, non-instrumented drive, you're over your head. Perhaps you meant, "In my opinion, the body roll of an M2 is excessive" or on the track, when I drove them back-to-back I thought the M2 had more body roll than the M3." But you didn't say anything close to either of those things.
I don't know which super important european expert has reported body roll issues on the M2s. I watched a lot of review but don't recall any. Strictly from my experiences with M3 and M2 on the same day for about 30minutes of winding each, I totally felt body roll was significantly noticeable with the M2s than M3s. Night and day differences. That is why I'm waiting on CS not the LCI.

Edit + if the CS indeed comes with lighter roof and overall weight.
And some anti-roll improvements

Last edited by K1won; 06-21-2017 at 09:38 PM..
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      06-21-2017, 09:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1won View Post
I still believe roof weight is quite important and BMW did not just add CF roof for a just cosmetic purposes. Weight distribution higher up top causes whole lot more body roll than the same weight more on the bottom. Try heavy helmet when taking on corners hard and see how you neck is so much more affected by the weight.
You can believe what you want, but you're wrong. The forces you are comparing are likely more than one order of magnitude apart. The roof is probably around 36 inches higher than the engine maybe? That engine weighs 400 lbs with accessories... 40 lbs at the top is probably a negligible shift in the center of mass of the car.

There are MANY cars with better handling and less body roll than an M2 that have steel roofs and several with a sunroof.

Roll is controlled through chassis and suspension.
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      06-21-2017, 09:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
You can believe what you want, but you're wrong. The forces you are comparing are likely more than one order of magnitude apart. The roof is probably around 36 inches higher than the engine maybe? That engine weighs 400 lbs with accessories... 40 lbs at the top is probably a negligible shift in the center of mass of the car.

There are MANY cars with better handling and less body roll than an M2 that have steel roofs and several with a sunroof.

Roll is controlled through chassis and suspension.
I didn't say roof weight is the only reason M2s have noticeable body roll compared to M3, so there are some misunderstandings, but you too can believe what you want, I still think M2 roof is one of the reasons the car is not as stable as M3. If you beat the M engineers on the reality of CF roof top purposes and functionality of M3 cars first, I will personally call you the car physics professor of the forum. But, before then, you are just as wrong as I am.
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      06-21-2017, 10:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luyi_pr View Post
FY17 no moonroof within 1-2 months or 6-8 month wait + at least $2.1k more for a FY18 with moonroof... My same dilemma!
Not in USA>.. its a $1050 option on MY '18.
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      06-21-2017, 10:49 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Not in USA>.. its a $1050 option on MY '18.
I believe he was adding the price bump for MY2018 + the cost of the moonroof.
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      06-21-2017, 10:57 PM   #31
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Get the '18 so you're 100% happy with your car.
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      06-21-2017, 11:06 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by M2GUY View Post
Get the '18 so you're 100% happy with your car.
Would he not be with the '17 delivered 7-12 months earlier AND ~2K cheaper?
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      06-22-2017, 12:28 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
The roof weight is almost certainly statistically insignificant, even if it is at the top of the car. I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference in a blind track comparison.

The reason BMW uses CF roofs on F8x is not really for performance reasons, it's because it looks cool and it's a marketing bullet point. I am sure for the price of R&D on that roof you could buy better dampers or something that has a measurable impact, but BMW is also trying to develop their carbon fiber manufacturing and bonding technologies for other purposes.

If you think that 40 lbs on a roof of a car that weighs 3600-3700 lbs (with driver) causes body roll then I don't know what to say.

Want to decrease body roll? Look at the suspension, not the roof.
This ^^^^^

99% of the people on this forum would not notice the extra weight up top on the track. On the street, where most of us spend our time, the difference would be even less noticeable.

If people are that concerned with weight they should also be stripping all the paint off their car. Thats gotta save at least 30 pounds right there.
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      06-22-2017, 12:58 AM   #34
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Totally agree that CF roof is 100% cosmetic and marketing. No performance difference. Any difference in body roll would be negligible, and could easy be accommodated by changing suspension settings.

For the OP, if you really want a moonroof, wait on an '18. It's just a few more months. You should get what you want.
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      06-22-2017, 01:13 AM   #35
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Do lighter roofs make a difference?

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xl...rnational_auto

This was when the Evo8MR first launched with an aluminium roof vs the older Evo8 with steel roof.

Best Motoring claimed improved stability at high speeds - was due to the reduced weight of the roof.

At 12:46. they slap on a 4kg rubber mat on top of the Evo8MR to see the impact of the heavier roof. It is quite interesting.

The effect of the aluminium roof is to lower the CG by a mere 3mm. Doesn't seem like much. But to have that same impact by reducing the weight of the front bonnet, you'd have to drop that by 12kg!!! That's a lot.

And looking at what they did to bond aluminium and steel - and still prevent leaking.. doesn't sound straightforward so I'd be hesitant about getting a third party CF roof.

That said, the heavier roofed car was more unstable under heavy braking and through the slalom - but the driver (who's a Mitsubishi racing team driver) kept the car going with more throttle input to correct - so it ended up faster on the slalom.

Last edited by DoggieHowser; 06-22-2017 at 01:47 AM..
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      06-22-2017, 06:29 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoggieHowser View Post
Do lighter roofs make a difference?

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xl...rnational_auto

This was when the Evo8MR first launched with an aluminium roof vs the older Evo8 with steel roof.

Best Motoring claimed improved stability at high speeds - was due to the reduced weight of the roof.

At 12:46. they slap on a 4kg rubber mat on top of the Evo8MR to see the impact of the heavier roof. It is quite interesting.

The effect of the aluminium roof is to lower the CG by a mere 3mm. Doesn't seem like much. But to have that same impact by reducing the weight of the front bonnet, you'd have to drop that by 12kg!!! That's a lot.

And looking at what they did to bond aluminium and steel - and still prevent leaking.. doesn't sound straightforward so I'd be hesitant about getting a third party CF roof.

That said, the heavier roofed car was more unstable under heavy braking and through the slalom - but the driver (who's a Mitsubishi racing team driver) kept the car going with more throttle input to correct - so it ended up faster on the slalom.
Very interesting findings. Design purposes of M2s become clearer to me. Thanks for sharing.

Last edited by K1won; 06-22-2017 at 06:38 AM..
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      06-22-2017, 06:54 AM   #37
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I personally use moonroof a lot in all my cars. be it for the sunlight in the cabin, little air ventilation, or just to look at the rain drop in the glass, I love this feature in cars.

But when I get the M2, I'd skip the moonroof because racecar.
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      06-22-2017, 04:09 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K1won View Post
I didn't say roof weight is the only reason M2s have noticeable body roll compared to M3, so there are some misunderstandings, but you too can believe what you want, I still think M2 roof is one of the reasons the car is not as stable as M3. If you beat the M engineers on the reality of CF roof top purposes and functionality of M3 cars first, I will personally call you the car physics professor of the forum. But, before then, you are just as wrong as I am.
So far you're the only person who has driven an M2 that feels it has stability issues. Not quite sure how that was diagnosed as a roof weight issue, if it even is an issue at all.
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      06-22-2017, 04:42 PM   #39
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I sure would love to have a carbon roof on the M2 though, for looks alone anyway.
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      06-22-2017, 04:49 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoggieHowser View Post
After examining the roof weight section of this compelling 7 1/2-year-old video test, I came to the following conclusions:

1. Adding a 9-pound weight to the top will make your car faster in an autocross, to the tune of perhaps .051 second. (That's 51 thousands of a second, which is enough to give you a few inches of nose across the yard of bricks for the win at the Indy 500.)

2. You car will feel significantly different with the extra weight on the roof, sort of like your eye feels weird all day after the doctor tells you it might feel a little itchy after you poked it. (You just can't ignore it!)

3. WeatherTech has the right materials - maybe they could develop high-speed, all-weather moonroof mats for high-performance vehicles. (I get dibs on the patent - and I may even change my User Name to MoonRoof Matt.)

So, if you see an M2 go by with a watermelon wedged into the moonroof hole, you'll know I'm on my way to set Fast Time of the Day at the next autocross.

C'mon guys - this has been fun, but really? I trust my butt dyno, but this is over the top.
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      06-22-2017, 05:08 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
C'mon guys - this has been fun, but really? I trust my butt dyno, but this is over the top.
Pun of the day for sure.
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      06-22-2017, 06:02 PM   #42
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Not sure how tall you are but I'm 6'2.

Sat in a 240i with a roof.

If you enjoy concussions at every speed bump and not being able to tilt your head to the left - ever so slightly - go with the moonroof.
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      06-22-2017, 06:05 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCfromOC View Post
Not sure how tall you are but I'm 6'2.

Sat in a 240i with a roof.

If you enjoy concussions at every speed bump and not being able to tilt your head to the left - ever so slightly - go with the moonroof.
I'm 6'4....haven't had a concussion this far, not looking for one now
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      06-22-2017, 06:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
I have LOVED my sunroofs. I was crushed that BMW NA thought it took away from the "spirit" of the car and refused to offer it. It was the one HUGE negative of the car. Each and every time I get into my 1M, I look up to open the sunroof because the car is so damn dark.

Guess what?

Not ONCE have I noticed that my M2 does not have a sunroof. Even in the dark winter of Chicago, when I long for a car that has some day light in the interior have I noticed it (or lack thereof).

I think it is the incredible amount of headroom the M2 has - I don't know. I do know that I was bummed that the sunroof option was coming to the 2018, and my dealer asked if I wanted to get on the list for the 2018 - but no, thinking about it, I would not trade my 17 in for an 18 with the sunroof. I love this car - I really do - my 2nd fav car ever and once again...

NOT ONCE HAVE I NOTICED THE LACK OF SUNROOF.

Get the 17. You will LOVE it.

keep the car.

And no, I'm not calling it a moonroof.
Thanks man, you're awfully convincing.
I'm from Chicago as well, maybe I'll see ya around
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