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      01-26-2017, 08:26 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by c63er View Post
It's easy to intellectualize cars like that. But I've long since abandoned that. Intellectualization of cars leads people down the path to the dark side (911 drivers ugh).

With that out there, what you are saying makes sense. For example I loved every second I drove the 4c. Still think about it when I'm alone at night. I would love to own 7 of them, one for each day of the week.

Would I pay 80k for one? Not a chance. It doesn't "feel" like a 80k car, and to me no 4 cylinder car could ever.

There's a reason why a v12 ferrari is far more expensive then v8 ones, and it has nothing to do with horsepower. But they are of course the pure "anti Intellectualization of cars" brand.

Like I said, if you or anyone else is ok with a 4cyl at that price point, I'm all for it. Keeps the segment alive.

I buy cars for how fun they are and how they "feel". Don't give a rats ass about what they can do on paper or how many competitor cars they can roast. Depending on how they "feel" and how fun they are they get assigned a price point. Some people do the same calculation based on percoeved brand prestige. Some people do it on 0-60 times. Some people do it based on what's newest. Some people do it based on the cars exterior design. Etc.
Not sure I understand your logic. Are paying for engine cylinders or for the experience driving the car? Those are sports car with a sole purpose of making the driver feel "good". By your math, 2008 m3 should cost more than 2017 one
Stop intellectualizing.

You cannot separate the cylinder count from the "feel" of the car. If you can, then you are a soulless driver and should get over to porsche asap where you can discuss track times and corner balancing ad nauseum.

Weren't you the one who said the c63s felt like a super car vs the m2 felt more nimble. You sure the cylinder count didn't contribute to those "feelings" you yourself put out there?

Again not arguing what's "better", there are too many factors to even get into that. I'll let the stick up their ass porsche drivers solve that one. I'm saying that I would probably never pay more then 40-50k for a car with a 4 cyl engine.
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      01-26-2017, 08:47 PM   #24
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Not sure I understand your logic. Are paying for engine cylinders or for the experience driving the car? Those are sports car with a sole purpose of making the driver feel "good". By your math, 2008 m3 should cost more than 2017 one
Stop intellectualizing Alex... you are making too much DAMN SENSE!
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      01-26-2017, 08:50 PM   #25
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I can't wrap my head around spending that much money for an engine that sounds like a Subaru tbh.... The NA engines will be missed.
and yet oddly.. some people CAN wrap their head around spending 100K for a car that has ZERO cylinders and sounds like it has NO motor.. .. yes indeed... one day.. ENGINES will be missed..
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      01-26-2017, 09:04 PM   #26
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and yet oddly.. some people CAN wrap their head around spending 100K for a car that has ZERO cylinders and sounds like it has NO motor.. .. yes indeed... one day.. ENGINES will be missed..
Is there going to be an aftermarket soundtrack business for the next generation of, "hummers?" Make sound samples of flat 6 motors and recycle them? Or will we just be a generation of old geezers "that remember" making car noises as we drive around our 21st century E-cars.
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      01-27-2017, 01:07 AM   #27
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It's easy to intellectualize cars like that. But I've long since abandoned that. Intellectualization of cars leads people down the path to the dark side (911 drivers ugh).

With that out there, what you are saying makes sense. For example I loved every second I drove the 4c. Still think about it when I'm alone at night. I would love to own 7 of them, one for each day of the week.

Would I pay 80k for one? Not a chance. It doesn't "feel" like a 80k car, and to me no 4 cylinder car could ever.

There's a reason why a v12 ferrari is far more expensive then v8 ones, and it has nothing to do with horsepower. But they are of course the pure "anti Intellectualization of cars" brand.

Like I said, if you or anyone else is ok with a 4cyl at that price point, I'm all for it. Keeps the segment alive.
I wonder if this BMW M12 4 cylinder powered F1 car feels like 80k car.




Last edited by PawnStar; 01-27-2017 at 01:14 AM..
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      01-27-2017, 01:36 AM   #28
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Same results as every other M2 vs 4 cyl Porsche test.

But

a) Who spends £67k on a Cayman?
b) Apples with oranges to quote another post (roll on Z5)
The Z5 will be less of a track performer than the M2 . Will weigh the same or likely more than the m2 with less less power and a less sport oriented suspension lol .
Well that will be a shame. Cooking Apple vs Pink Lady then.

The Boxster and Cayman should be BMW's target not the TT and SLC in my view, but they must have a reason for aiming lower.
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      01-27-2017, 07:51 AM   #29
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So many people bashing Porsche for charging 80k for a flat 4 while BMW wants you to pay $130k for a 3cyl.
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      01-27-2017, 07:52 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by c63er View Post
It's easy to intellectualize cars like that. But I've long since abandoned that. Intellectualization of cars leads people down the path to the dark side (911 drivers ugh).

With that out there, what you are saying makes sense. For example I loved every second I drove the 4c. Still think about it when I'm alone at night. I would love to own 7 of them, one for each day of the week.

Would I pay 80k for one? Not a chance. It doesn't "feel" like a 80k car, and to me no 4 cylinder car could ever.

There's a reason why a v12 ferrari is far more expensive then v8 ones, and it has nothing to do with horsepower. But they are of course the pure "anti Intellectualization of cars" brand.

Like I said, if you or anyone else is ok with a 4cyl at that price point, I'm all for it. Keeps the segment alive.
I wonder if this BMW M12 4 cylinder powered F1 car feels like 80k car.



Wouldn't buy... not enough cylinders ...
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      01-27-2017, 07:58 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
and yet oddly.. some people CAN wrap their head around spending 100K for a car that has ZERO cylinders and sounds like it has NO motor.. .. yes indeed... one day.. ENGINES will be missed..
Yep, The car I buy this year will my last pure IC car (well, street car anyway)... After this, I think I'll get a Tesla, i3 or used i8 or something. Tried to get an M2, but not gonna wait forever. was hoping to take ED in June, but that's not happening. I like the Cayman, but the older ones are too slow and the new ones not a good value. They should be comparing the M2 to the base Cayman with no options to make that fair. M2 is a much better value. If I can't get an M2, I'm gonna try for a decent used R8. Almost got one this week, but somebody beat me to it.
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      01-27-2017, 10:45 AM   #32
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No doubt the Cayman is the better car here, but also costs more. The M2 is impressive, but mid-engine Cayman is much more fun to drive IMO. I have not yet driven the 4-cylinder but Porsche is such a great car maker. Bottom line is buy the M2 if you can't afford a Porsche.
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      01-27-2017, 10:56 AM   #33
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I looked in to both, then bought a Mustang GT 350 for 61k! Pretty amazing car, and I'm coming from last 3 generations of M3. Probably more of an M4 and 911 competitor, but based on price a consideration
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      01-27-2017, 03:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinnetti View Post
Yep, The car I buy this year will my last pure IC car (well, street car anyway)... After this, I think I'll get a Tesla, i3 or used i8 or something. Tried to get an M2, but not gonna wait forever. was hoping to take ED in June, but that's not happening. I like the Cayman, but the older ones are too slow and the new ones not a good value. They should be comparing the M2 to the base Cayman with no options to make that fair. M2 is a much better value. If I can't get an M2, I'm gonna try for a decent used R8. Almost got one this week, but somebody beat me to it.
I'm in the Colony - we should take a run in my 981 sometime - I doubt you'd call it slow. It's not fast in the same way that an F80 is for example - but it's definitely not slow.

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      01-27-2017, 06:58 PM   #35
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I haven't ridden in one yet - I like some of the little things they changed over the 981 (LEDs, sharper nose, revised intakes) and not crazy about others (not sure about the placement of the model and whatnot on the rear, like the rounder headlight of the 981 better).

Can't deny how capable the 718S is - the thing is within 2 seconds of the GT4 on the Ring. With an inferior tire. The next GT4 will really need to widen that gap, performance-wise (this is a good thing ).

Really like the M2, but the result isn't surprising....
Rumor floating around is there is a GT4RS in the works that will have a 4.0 liter flat 6. Now that car will be off the charts fun.
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      01-27-2017, 07:49 PM   #36
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Rumor floating around is there is a GT4RS in the works that will have a 4.0 liter flat 6. Now that car will be off the charts fun.
Oh yeah - that would be a beast for sure. I was talking about this on Planet 9 the other day - the 718S (and even more with the eventual GTS) is so damn good that Porsche won't be able to neuter the next gen GT4 if they want it to sell like the first one or better.

I think the 981 GT4 was like 14 seconds faster than my S on the Ring. Since the 718S is very close to that time, they might need the 4.0 just to get some distance. The 3.8L on the 981 GT4 was neutered of course (much lower redline and BHP than we know was capable) so it will be interesting to see how Porsche plays this hand.
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      01-27-2017, 08:10 PM   #37
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Rumor floating around is there is a GT4RS in the works that will have a 4.0 liter flat 6. Now that car will be off the charts fun.
Yes, and although BMW and Porsche have different business models, I really wish BMW would make more hardcore cars like Porsche. BMW definitely has the engineering acumen and money, but mindset is just not there. They have no halo car currently, like Mercedes, Audi, Ford, Lexus, Porsche, Acura, etc, etc.

Something exotic which people aspire to... Even Chevy has the Z06, that while not a six figure priced car, the performance is legendary. And that ZR1 will be lunacy....

The M4 GTS and i8 are there, and I'm not knocking them (ok, maybe a little), but it doesn't speak to you like an R8 or Ford GT or AMG GTR or NSX or 918 (obviously).

I understand I may be taking out of my ass, but c'mon BMW, shock the automotive world or something. The current M lineup is good, but it's what is expected of BMW and nothing more.

The M2 is getting universal praise...great car. But now come out with an M2 version which makes people go

You know how a performance car garners total respect? When people who hate a particular brand even say, "OK, I don't like Porsche, but I really, really want that GT4RS!"

BMW needs THAT kind of car.

(Sorry for rant...been having a couple of DIPA)
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      01-27-2017, 08:15 PM   #38
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^^^yep. Something that epitomizes the best of the brand. They don't have anything like that.

But they've got the minivan tourer thing lol

PS - GM went to shit when they tried to be good at everything...and instead we're good at nothing. They had no identity. BMW, on a smaller scale, could see the same sort of result.

I got my first E92 328i because my dad had a E46 328 that was the business. I left the brand because that "it" and excitement just wasn't there in normal cars like the 235. It had become soft and squishy and boring. You don't need a sub 4 second 0-60 car to have great DNA and excitement. That's what P cars have in spades.
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      01-27-2017, 09:39 PM   #39
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Quote of segment right at the end after they both say they are having great fun...'ya, but I still have 25 grand!' say the BMW driver.
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      01-27-2017, 10:08 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by csbear View Post
Yes, and although BMW and Porsche have different business models, I really wish BMW would make more hardcore cars like Porsche. BMW definitely has the engineering acumen and money, but mindset is just not there. They have no halo car currently, like Mercedes, Audi, Ford, Lexus, Porsche, Acura, etc, etc.

Something exotic which people aspire to... Even Chevy has the Z06, that while not a six figure priced car, the performance is legendary. And that ZR1 will be lunacy....

The M4 GTS and i8 are there, and I'm not knocking them (ok, maybe a little), but it doesn't speak to you like an R8 or Ford GT or AMG GTR or NSX or 918 (obviously).

I understand I may be taking out of my ass, but c'mon BMW, shock the automotive world or something. The current M lineup is good, but it's what is expected of BMW and nothing more.

The M2 is getting universal praise...great car. But now come out with an M2 version which makes people go

You know how a performance car garners total respect? When people who hate a particular brand even say, "OK, I don't like Porsche, but I really, really want that GT4RS!"

BMW needs THAT kind of car.

(Sorry for rant...been having a couple of DIPA)
I hear ya, a modern day M1 would be nice.
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      01-29-2017, 04:06 AM   #41
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I've driven several examples of the 718 2.0 and 2.5, while I've driven older boxters and the odd 911.

The ride and and handling is really quite something. The engine meanwhile will batter the redline and it makes a few pops and bangs whilst sounding sporting. Has plenty of performance through the revs. Made my mind up before all the reviews came out hating the sound but what modern engine from last 3-4 years actually sounds that good? It's not like a 4-cyl can't sound good. I love the racket my R50 Cooper makes. Not as exotic but still brings a smile.

Anyway ended up convincing my other half to get one. Final price would upset a few on here but to get the creature and performance options adds a fair bit.

I wonder if the noise will develop like my 1M. That sounds far more characterful than when it was new.
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      01-29-2017, 08:58 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt1camaro View Post
I can't wrap my head around spending that much money for an engine that sounds like a Subaru tbh.... The NA engines will be missed.
and yet oddly.. some people CAN wrap their head around spending 100K for a car that has ZERO cylinders and sounds like it has NO motor.. .. yes indeed... one day.. ENGINES will be missed..
Yea- anyone denouncing a 4 cal car at $80k has to have a huge problem with the i8. That car is well over $100k and has 3 cyl! The situation is so sad i8 engineers had to develop a real engine soundtrack to play over the speakers!
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      01-29-2017, 03:38 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by csbear View Post
Yes, and although BMW and Porsche have different business models, I really wish BMW would make more hardcore cars like Porsche. BMW definitely has the engineering acumen and money, but mindset is just not there. They have no halo car currently, like Mercedes, Audi, Ford, Lexus, Porsche, Acura, etc, etc.

Something exotic which people aspire to... Even Chevy has the Z06, that while not a six figure priced car, the performance is legendary. And that ZR1 will be lunacy....

The M4 GTS and i8 are there, and I'm not knocking them (ok, maybe a little), but it doesn't speak to you like an R8 or Ford GT or AMG GTR or NSX or 918 (obviously).

I understand I may be taking out of my ass, but c'mon BMW, shock the automotive world or something. The current M lineup is good, but it's what is expected of BMW and nothing more.

The M2 is getting universal praise...great car. But now come out with an M2 version which makes people go

You know how a performance car garners total respect? When people who hate a particular brand even say, "OK, I don't like Porsche, but I really, really want that GT4RS!"

BMW needs THAT kind of car.

(Sorry for rant...been having a couple of DIPA)
Please don't take anything out of your ass
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      01-29-2017, 06:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shost View Post

what modern engine from last 3-4 years actually sounds that good?
Music please!

RS3
AMG
Yes the A45
BMW N55B30TO
981 GTS
E63 AMG
And Ford Mustang GT350

991.2 Carrera S
340i with MPPK
the 781 is just OK

Alfa Romeo 4C
Dodge Hellcat and 1LE
Viper and Evora and many a Ferrari

Even a Mustang GT
Or AMG C63
And nothing rhymes with quadrifoglio
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