11-06-2014, 02:37 AM | #89 |
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If the M2 is available in MT only then its off my list. Wont even go to the dealer to look at it. BMW will lose significant sales as a result and they know it, which is why this car will come with DCT.
We understand that drivers who prefer MT are enthusiasts, but no more so than drivers of DCT cars. It is fact, that in cars where both transmissions are available , over 80% of sales are DCT / DSG etc. In fact in some models the percentage of sales of the DCT / DSG is so high some manufactures don't even bother with the manual anymore, its just not worth the R&D for it. Not going to start another MT versus DCT argument, but the facts really do speak for themselves, the overwhelming majority of motoring enthusiasts prefer the Dual Clutch. Just sayin! |
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11-06-2014, 09:53 AM | #90 | |
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However this car could be so beautiful I may need to ignore my own dislike for auto rev matching. |
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11-06-2014, 10:12 AM | #91 |
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Certainly an autoblip toggle for ALL modes would be far preferable than just having if off in Sport+. It's not like it would cost BMW anything significant to add that flexibility.
The C7's functionality in that respect is great but I would not want paddles for changing the autoblip mode - a dedicated centre console button would be ideal. The only reason the manual C7 uses paddles is cost-saving - only one wheel was used for both AT and MT models. |
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11-06-2014, 01:24 PM | #92 | |
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There are different product strategies, but universally trying to make one size fit all also means it won't fit anyone perfectly. And historically it's the most focused cars, the cars that don't appeal to everyone, that we get excited about. From the E30 M3 to Porsche's lightweights, they purposely turned off more than 80% of customers because they were too de-contented, uncomfortable, focused or simply different. But precisely because of this they appealed far more to a few, and many are legends because of it today. The 1M's resale value seems to prove that this strategy still works. Thus while I'm all for choice in theory, I do think some cars should turn the majority of drivers off. If you agree in any particular case probably depends if you're one of the many or one of the few. I'd also point out that in the US, on the sportiest models, the "take rate" for DSG/ auto is well below the 80% you're quoting. There, at the upper end of "driver's cars" at least, a market for the manual still clearly exists. BMW has indicated that they will support it, and that this support will be one of the things that sets their brand apart.
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11-07-2014, 04:28 AM | #93 | |
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I have or have access to several vehicles, some with DSG and some with MT. I prefer the MT for recreational vehicles such as my pickup for hauling my MX bikes, but if its focused driving then nothing comes close to a DSG. For some reason, folks that say they want a MT think it makes them special, when all it makes them is old fashioned and unable to change with the times. Yes, engines used to be naturally aspirated once and we all thought that was sweet, till we realised that by throwing a turbo or two on made it so much better, and we got used to the idea. You raise some good points, and I may not have quoted the correct figures for the US with regard to take up of DCT / DSG as compared to Europe and other parts of the world, but I'm confident that it is still higher than take up of MT by a significant margin. Manual Transmissions may still be popular, but they are declining in sales and will eventually go the way of the dinosaur. Also, if you have a 1M I salute you on owning what is considered to be a brilliant piece of motoring, however I don't accept your argument regarding the comparison of the gearboxes. The 1M was sold in such limited numbers that they were all going to sell regardless of the MT being the only option. But the M2 will be a full volume vehicle and BMW know better than to alienate the majority of the people who would consider purchasing one. After all, they are in the business of selling cars and making profits. What would I buy if the M2 is MT only, most likely it will be the RS3 or possibly the CLA / A 45 Black. |
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11-07-2014, 05:00 AM | #94 | ||
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11-07-2014, 07:54 AM | #95 | |
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Saying that MT drivers can't get with the times, is as stupid as saying DCT/AT drivers are a bunch of posers. The street goes both ways. And your example of turbo vs NA is also flawed. Some people will prefer NA over turbos, and vice versas. I've tried to like DCT's, but they just are not for me. They are so amazing on the track, but guess what, my car probably spends 2 days out of the 365 at the track. And on mountain runs (which I do far more of, I'm close to the Blue Ridge Highway), I prefer MT because I'm out there having fun. Doesn't mean I look down on DCT drivers though. This is so stupid regardless. 5 pages of banter over an article which is all fluff anyway.
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11-07-2014, 08:36 AM | #96 |
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If you want a performance car, then there are only two metrics which matter, and they are both subjective: (i) seat of the pants and (ii) grin on the face. Buy what makes you happy and to hell with the micrometers, accelerometers and the MT vs. AT bs.
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11-07-2014, 09:07 AM | #97 | |
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If you want a fun/sporting car, then the subjective qualities come into play. But you're right about one thing - buy what makes you happy, because the internet isn't going to drive your car.
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11-07-2014, 10:03 AM | #98 | |
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It never made sense to me why people care so much about 0.2s here and there, when we could be outrun by a well modified Mustang or a boosted VW for a fraction of the price of these M cars. At the end of the day, it should be all about fun or whatever fits your needs, because there is always someone around the corner that's faster than you anyway.
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11-07-2014, 10:41 AM | #99 | |
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11-07-2014, 11:54 AM | #100 | |
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By your logic a modern minivan or SUV is a far better 'performance car' than an E30 M3. Or a '73 Porsche 911 RS. A Porsche Cayenne Turbo S will walk all over virtually anything through the '80s that you want to mention- Ferrari 288 GTO, etc. A Panamera Turbo will walk all over a Cayman S at the track. Objectively these cars do everything better. Subjectively most drivers know that numbers do not make a car. Emotion, feedback, connection, experience- these are the things that make a great drive. And by definition they can't be measured. Objectively an automatic is now better in every way, just as 4wd is better, "DSC on" is better, etc. Subjectively, however, it's a whole different ballgame.
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11-07-2014, 12:52 PM | #101 | |
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Please go back and read my post again. I said it cracks me up when people (not me) choose a car based on a second or two of performance on track, and then state they want a stick shift. Anyone that bases their purchase solely on track times should opt for the automatic by default, since that's the most reliable way to get best track times. I personally don't care about lap times as part of my purchase criteria. Yes, they are interesting to look at as a guide to general performance of a car, but many other factors are in consideration. My point here being the same as yours - it's both objective and subjective criteria which need to be considered when buying a car, or many other things...
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11-07-2014, 01:08 PM | #102 | |||
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What if BMW had offered all of those options but had still only brought 740 to the US? First, they couldn't. The DCTs would have been blatantly faster than the M3, something they were trying desperately to avoid, so they would have needed to drop ~15 hp. Second, production costs would have gone up by offering more options, raising the MSRP. Finally if they had, with sunroofs, automatics, etc rolling around the 1M's reputation as a driver's car would have been diluted. That 1M could not have been the purist, enthusiast's car that we got. So the 1M is special not only because it was limited production or good. The 1M is also special in part precisely because it isn't for everyone. It's difficult to drive and requires compromises. This turns some people off, but turns others on. Had the 1M been the car you it wouldn't be a legend, or worth as much as it is today. I would encourage BMW to make as many "not for everyone" cars like this as it can afford to, realizing that they can't come around every day. I say this keeping in mind that BMW loves automatics too, witness the M3 CSL or GTS. The next specialist car might be auto only. But at least it won't be for everyone.
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11-07-2014, 01:10 PM | #103 |
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I did. You stated the following, which is quite catagorical. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase:
Of the cars I mention in my post, you're going to choose the minivans and SUVs? Or how are you measuring "performance"?
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11-07-2014, 01:14 PM | #104 | ||
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You also mention, "... if its focused driving then nothing comes close to a DSG." That's your opinion, right? There are many here (myself included), whose experience is quite the contrary.
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11-07-2014, 01:42 PM | #105 | |
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I also said "If you want a fun/sporting car, then the subjective qualities come into play", which I think is essentially your point. Someone who is willing to give up some performance in order to have an extra measure of feel/feedback/engagement/whatever with the car should certainly have the benefit of choice. It would be nice to be able to choose between DCT and stick, hydraulic and electric steering, A/C vs. none, leather and cloth, etc, etc, etc. Let those who care about that last bit get the hard-core car, while others get exactly what they want. Doesn't fit into any maker's business model though... Maybe Porsche to a certain extent, but then there's the 991 GT3...
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11-07-2014, 01:43 PM | #106 | |
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What makes the car sought after has nothing to do with BMW making manual the only choice. It has to do simply with the car's limited production status, the fact that it was really good, and that so many people wanted and still want one but can't. Sell only a few hundred M2s and I'm sure it will be just as sought after. It's simple supply and demand when you strip away all the other crap. |
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11-07-2014, 02:00 PM | #108 |
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Try again. I'm saying rarity is not the only metric, and it's not what's driving the 1M's value. Just like rarity isn't driving the 135is value, nor is it responsible for making the E46 M3 manual worth significantly more than the SMG despite being slower and being imported in similar numbers.
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11-07-2014, 02:07 PM | #109 | |
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Show me a single street car you think is purchased based solely on performance. And I'll show you a car that isn't.
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11-07-2014, 02:14 PM | #110 | |
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