12-16-2017, 11:35 PM | #155 | |
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12-17-2017, 06:36 AM | #156 |
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12-17-2017, 10:35 AM | #157 | ||||
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Pricing the M4 GTS near that of a GT3 is foolish. No one in their right mind would choose the BMW over the Porsche. Making BMW "track specials" is a flawed idea, because BMW's were always supposed to be sports sedans, not pure sports cars. The main benefit over a 911, or most other sports cars, was always that you could transport 4 passengers, or fold the seats down and haul your skies, or whatever, yet still drive it like a sports car. Don't get me wrong, my dedicated track toy is a e46 m3, but putting a roll bar/cage in it defeats the purpose of buying a sports SEDAN. Sure there is a safety benefit, and I would rather have a roll cage in my car at the track, but then I can't drive it to and from with the track wheels and all the tools, without the need of a trailer. Nor can I use the car occasionally with the family. Those were always the advantages of a sports sedan, over a pure sports car. So when BMW decided to make GTS versions, it seemed like the logical next move for them, but they forgot that they would always be at a disadvantage against a purpose build sports car. Really the only way they can compete, is to offer it for a lot less money since most advantages of practicality are out the window when you install a roll bar..........a larger trunk is all that remains. Long story short, the M4 GTS doesn't offer the advantages a regular M4 offers over a standard 911, thus it was doomed to fail and maybe a M2 GTS would be doomed to fail for the same reasons. IMHO, putting roll cages in sports sedans is the real flaw. The e46 M3 CSL never had a roll cage and it was the last successful uber M3. If BMW wants to compete with the GT3 or GT4, then they should build a real sports car. Porsche is spanking them left and right and their sales are through the roof, yet for decades all we ever hear is that BMW brass canceled plans for a pure sports car. What I never understood, is that they can build a car for every segment under the sun, except a real sports car. And please spare me the profitability argument. From a marketing point of view it would pay dividends. Just look at the Audi R8 or Mercedes GTS & GTR, seems it worked for their competitors. Maybe BMW execs haven't realized that HPDE's have become pretty popular in the last 10-20 years, so much so that you would think it warranted them building cars for that segment as well. Wake up BMW, before all your track junkie customers moved over to Porsche. |
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12-17-2017, 08:24 PM | #158 | |
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I feel that BMW has the capability to make a car like that with a more premium feel and lighter weight. Who thought BMW M should one day look up to the Camaro in terms of sports coupe track performance? I'm personally hoping these upcoming M2 variants have some ZL1 1LE-light personality traits with the increased braking and power (not as much as the monster S/C 6.2 obviously), but also lighter weight and more premium. |
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12-17-2017, 10:05 PM | #159 | |
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To clarify, I am all for BMW making uber M cars, but they should not forget what they are.....sports sedans! If they want to compete with purpose build sports cars, then they should build one. For Pete's sake, they were in F1, surely they can build a sports car. |
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12-17-2017, 10:09 PM | #160 | |
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12-18-2017, 12:29 AM | #161 |
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During the E36 era they only have the Z series, 3 series, the 5 series, the 7 series ad the 8 series.
Today? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,i,Z,X In terms of (% on revenue) resource allocation how much money can people realistically expect them to allocate to specialise models like the M4GTS? It is not that you cannot engineer a super handling sports sedan with 4 seats (Porsche has done it with the Panamera, Chevy has done it with the Camaro, Ford has done it with the GT350). It is really to do with how much resource you want to allocate to achieve this objective. The issue they are facing now is spread oneself too thin. They are not the same company as they were 25 years ago. There is too much at stake for them to shift more resource away from the mainstream stuff and into the niche stuff like GTS/CSL. I am hoping that the M2CS will have a 6 speed manual box though. Yes, my hope is still high on this one. I have said it in the past that it will be a big surprise (for me at least) to see a M2 CSL to eventualise out of this current climate. |
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12-18-2017, 04:19 AM | #162 | |
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Though the E46 M3 and F87 M2 are both inevitably children of their time, price-wise and size-wise they are quite akin. It's rumored in this thread that the M2 CS is already finalized "for a very long time" and that an M2 CSL was still under development until late 2017 (see here). If BMW M boss Frank Van Meel pulled the plug on the M2 CSL project as suggested in this thread (see here) or if BMW management imposed any such decision, then let us hope that M2 CSL resources and development progress are fully used to make the 2019 M2 variant (M2 CS) the highest desirable 4-seater anno 2019/2020. Unlike the M4 GTS, back to the days when 'compact' (sub 4.5 meter) was still key to achieve the best driving dynamics. Size matters. Also given its size, the F87 platform was IMHO a golden opportunity for BMW to develop a car that car enthusiasts would lust for and further promote the BMW M brand image: the M2 CSL as halo car. Unfortunately, for now, it looks like it ain't gonna happen.
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12-18-2017, 06:51 AM | #163 | |
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12-19-2017, 10:12 AM | #165 |
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Yep. The M2's engineers must have been pretty frustrated with their orders to essentially make the M4 suspension fit and leave the rest alone.
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12-19-2017, 12:36 PM | #166 | |
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It was a great car, for its time. It also started to rust out at 6 years of age, and the body shop that worked on it told me to unload it within 2 years, because after that, it was going to disintegrate, rapidly, into a pile of rust. During the mideast war/gas crisis of the late '70s, I had an extra gas tank installed in the trunk to increase gas capacity for those "odd-even day" gas station restrictions. In retrospect, I think I created a latter day Ford Pinto, and hope that whomever ended up with that car later did not get immolated in a rear-end crash
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12-19-2017, 02:42 PM | #167 |
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BMW used "Golf Yellow" (BMW paint code 070) for the BMW 3.0 CSL a few decades ago, with an encore in 2015 for the BMW 3.0 CSL Hommage.
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12-19-2017, 03:49 PM | #168 | |
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There is a famous Porsche 2nd hand dealer in the UK who has written a treatise on how to buy a used Porsche. In there they explicitly state that they refuse to buy and market used Porsches in "unpopular" colors. Which reminds me of the new home development where the "business house" my business partner and i own jointly is located. The houses are very nice, well located, and have relatively large lots. They sell once the framing lumber starts going up, a couple of months before they are completed. One exception has been a couple of houses that were painted undesirable colors and in some cases had bizarre interior decorating themes. One of them was bright green in color, and had not sold for several months after completion. I wrote the listing real estate agent that they really needed to repaint that house if they wanted to sell it. I never got a response to my email, but a few days later the painters showed up, masked off the trim and the windows, and painted the house light grey. It sold the next day.
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01-04-2018, 02:21 AM | #169 |
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I know this thread died out a little but is it possible with the advent of these multiple aftermarket companies, a CSL wouldn't be cost worthy as opposed to a M2 CS... and let consumers make their car.
Remember Carbon Fiber and composites were only for the rich and very few companies provided it back then... No you are literally a click away from carbon fiber rolls and what not. Look at how RKP designed a carbon fiber room to mimic M3 M4 for the M2. |
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01-04-2018, 02:52 PM | #170 | |
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01-21-2018, 08:10 AM | #171 |
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I enjoy my M2, but it will be sold as soon as my GT4 build goes forward. True GT 4.0 n/a (probably detuned to 430hp) and 6spd! Long term keeper right there.
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01-21-2018, 09:02 AM | #172 |
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01-23-2018, 10:12 AM | #173 | |
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The M2 sibling IF permitted to be conceived the right way could turn out to be a big bully. |
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01-23-2018, 11:43 AM | #174 | |
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But all test mules got the "M2 Cs" name now: see here.
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01-23-2018, 12:05 PM | #175 | |
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The name was definitely Competition. Not sure why the test mules have all been renamed CS. I guess they still have a few more months to screw with us. Very confusing. Last edited by Gatte; 01-24-2018 at 12:35 AM.. |
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01-23-2018, 10:59 PM | #176 | ||
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