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      08-19-2014, 04:56 AM   #23
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No is the simple answer, I doubt the M2 will be anything like as fast
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      08-19-2014, 07:39 AM   #24
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No it won't! Considering that weight isn't all that different between a 235i and a 3/4, the performance margin will remain vast.
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      08-19-2014, 08:56 AM   #25
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I am certain that the M2 will be held back to NOT interfere with M4 sales or desirability. The only way the M2 will be as quick as the M4 is if it gets released as a 'Limited Edition' like the 1M did....but it seems unlikely that will be happening as per the news leaking out. With the 1M they didn't have to worry because it wasn't a full production run....with the M2 they will have to be a bit careful not to step on the M4's shoes as profitability is greater for the the M4 than it will be on the M2, most likely.
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      08-19-2014, 09:33 AM   #26
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The 135i and M235i have been called the spiritual successor to the E46 M3. I expect the M2 to be more than that. How good it is will depend on how much BMW does with lightweight materials since it is going to be 40 or 50 hp short of the M4. The M4 (and the new 3 and 4 series) have gotten very large, probably due to US efficiency regulations that allow more emissions from vehicles with a larger footprint.
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      08-19-2014, 10:01 AM   #27
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I think it will add to overall sales and that's the bottom line. There is no way in hell I'm paying 80-90k for an M4, but I would pay 55-65k for an M2 -

PS If the M2 performed as well as the M4 they would be about the same price.
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      08-19-2014, 12:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Wow! So everything is the fault of an anonymous poster on a car forum?
The collective "you". So everyone that simplistically values cars by their performance numbers alone... You too perhaps?

Look at the post above-
Quote:
If the M2 performed as well as the M4 it would be about the same price.
It's true, but why? It's a smaller car, has less stuff, and could have the same performance with a smaller motor. It should cost less. But if it did, and it performed as well as the M4, BMW would sell far less M4s. Because car buyers looks to performance numbers to try and figure out what a car is worth. And it's that simplistic attitude that guarantees that car manufactures won't build the cars they easily could:
  • An M2 with an M4 motor should cost thousands less to build than an M4 but be faster.
  • A Cayman with a 3.8 S or GT3 motor should be a budget supercar.
  • A VW R with the Audi 5 cylinder would be a budget GT-R.

All great cars that would be easy to make and sell well, but that we'll never see because of the attitude on display here. Something to think about...
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      08-19-2014, 12:46 PM   #29
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I think your three creations would sell but in small volume so the manufacturers only makes those cars from time to time just to create more buzz and brand recognition. The main M cars 3/4/5/6 are meant to be big sellers, more so now than ever before. We all think that will be the case for M2 but we won't know until it is unveiled in final form.
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      08-19-2014, 01:01 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liborio View Post
I think your three creations would sell but in small volume so the manufacturers only makes those cars from time to time just to create more buzz and brand recognition. The main M cars 3/4/5/6 are meant to be big sellers, more so now than ever before. We all think that will be the case for M2 but we won't know until it is unveiled in final form.
You think a ~52k, S55 engined M2, far cheaper and half a second faster in the 1/4 that an M4, would only sell in small volumes for a BMW M car? A 65k Cayman R with the 430 hp 3.8S powerkit motor would likewise be a poor seller in Porsche's lineup?

Why, may I ask?
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      08-19-2014, 01:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liborio View Post
I think your three creations would sell but in small volume so the manufacturers only makes those cars from time to time just to create more buzz and brand recognition. The main M cars 3/4/5/6 are meant to be big sellers, more so now than ever before. We all think that will be the case for M2 but we won't know until it is unveiled in final form.
Big sellers compared to what?...I think the "regular" 3/4/5/6 series are meant to be the BIG sellers.....guessing they make more profit on an M car though....
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      08-19-2014, 02:36 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
It's true, but why? It's a smaller car, has less stuff, and could have the same performance with a smaller motor. It should cost less. But if it did, and it performed as well as the M4, BMW would sell far less M4s. Because car buyers looks to performance numbers to try and figure out what a car is worth. And it's that simplistic attitude that guarantees that car manufactures won't build the cars they easily could:
  • An M2 with an M4 motor should cost thousands less to build than an M4 but be faster.
  • A Cayman with a 3.8 S or GT3 motor should be a budget supercar.
  • A VW R with the Audi 5 cylinder would be a budget GT-R.

...
It's because price has nothing to do with cost :-)
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      08-19-2014, 03:00 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by sgrinavi View Post
It's because price has nothing to do with cost :-)
Correct- pricing reflects what people are willing to pay.

Porsche makes a "Club Sport" or "RS America" by removing a bunch of equipment. It costs them less, and back in the late 80s/ early 90s they also charged less. Unfortunately they found that it pissed buyers of the regular version off: they paid more for a lower performance car. More comfortable, more practical, etc, but slower. So rather than piss off the heart of their market, Porsche now simply charges more for the lightweight versions. Ditto engines- they use an identical motor in their 311 hp Boxster S as they do in the 345 hp Carrera, they simply change the software to prevent the e-throttle from fully opening in the Boxster.

Some would say they are fleecing the customer, charging hundreds of dollars to unlock each extra hp. But as long as consumers insists on using their car's speed as a measure of their manhood, and tying what they'll pay to that measurement, they basically have no choice.
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      08-19-2014, 03:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Correct- pricing reflects what people are willing to pay.

Porsche makes a "Club Sport" or "RS America" by removing a bunch of equipment. It costs them less, and back in the late 80s/ early 90s they also charged less. Unfortunately they found that it pissed buyers of the regular version off: they paid more for a lower performance car. More comfortable, more practical, etc, but slower. So rather than piss off the heart of their market, Porsche now simply charges more for the lightweight versions. Ditto engines- they use an identical motor in their 311 hp Boxster S as they do in the 345 hp Carrera, they simply change the software to prevent the e-throttle from fully opening in the Boxster.

Some would say they are fleecing the customer, charging hundreds of dollars to unlock each extra hp. But as long as consumers insists on using their car's speed as a measure of their manhood, and tying what they'll pay to that measurement, they basically have no choice.
I just can't find any sense in your whole premise.
You are saying that because we the consumers want better-performing cars, the manufacturers won't build them? Or at least not without charging a premium for the extra performance.

So your suggestion would be to tell the manufacturers "We collectively don't care about performance and we're not going to pay for it", and then magically they will fall for the ruse and build cars that perform better but at lower prices because they believe we won't buy them otherwise?

First, that's a ludicrous notion.

Second, it has nothing to do with the premise of the original question.

Now, the REAL problem, which I think is what you are trying to get at, but phrasing it poorly, is that the M3 is (was) a legendary car. The current M3 is not the M3 of legend (if for no other reason than the fact that it is a full-sized performance sedan now), hence the whole notion of the "spiritual successor". To some (and possibly to BMW as well), they want to make the M4 the continuation of that lineage. My point, and at least one other poster picked up on it without needing spoonfeeding, is that the M2, not the M4 should inherit that mantle.

I believe it will. And yes, the M4 may "outperform" the M2, but likely only in the same way that the M5 "outperforms" the M4: bigger HP, but not as nimble, nor as quick, nor anywhere near as fun.

Now, it is possible that my premise will not come to pass, if BMW truly forces the issue and doesn't let the M2 live up to its potential just so it won't eat into M4 sales, but we can only hope that they will let the M2 live up to its potential (which it totally can with an N55 if they do the weight reduction and suspension right) and let each speak for themselves without trying to artificially rig the market.

So back to the original premise: If BMW does the M2 right, it will be the true successor to the M3 concept of old in ways that the oversized (but admittedly sexy) M4 cannot.
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      08-19-2014, 04:11 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
All great cars that would be easy to make and sell well, but that we'll never see because of the attitude on display here. Something to think about...
So what is the solution?

As you said, price has nothing to do with costs, but reflects what people are willing to pay, what about building an M2 (like M4) and Cayman GT3 (like 911 GT3) and sell it for more? The profit should be huge? or demand is too low?

I think the main problem is that there are more dreamers (including me) than potential buyers, and if it finally comes to a potential pruchase, the potential Customer might be at the last moment be swayed away to something else - imagine BMW has an M2 CSL and suddenly Porsche has a Cayman GT4.

Last edited by BMW269; 08-19-2014 at 04:16 PM.
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      08-19-2014, 04:15 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
I just can't find any sense in your whole premise.
You are saying that because we the consumers want better-performing cars, the manufacturers won't build them? Or at least not without charging a premium for the extra performance.

So your suggestion would be to tell the manufacturers "We collectively don't care about performance and we're not going to pay for it", and then magically they will fall for the ruse and build cars that perform better but at lower prices because they believe we won't buy them otherwise?

First, that's a ludicrous notion.

Second, it has nothing to do with the premise of the original question.

Now, the REAL problem, which I think is what you are trying to get at, but phrasing it poorly, is that the M3 is (was) a legendary car. The current M3 is not the M3 of legend (if for no other reason than the fact that it is a full-sized performance sedan now), hence the whole notion of the "spiritual successor". To some (and possibly to BMW as well), they want to make the M4 the continuation of that lineage. My point, and at least one other poster picked up on it without needing spoonfeeding, is that the M2, not the M4 should inherit that mantle.

I believe it will. And yes, the M4 may "outperform" the M2, but likely only in the same way that the M5 "outperforms" the M4: bigger HP, but not as nimble, nor as quick, nor anywhere near as fun.

Now, it is possible that my premise will not come to pass, if BMW truly forces the issue and doesn't let the M2 live up to its potential just so it won't eat into M4 sales, but we can only hope that they will let the M2 live up to its potential (which it totally can with an N55 if they do the weight reduction and suspension right) and let each speak for themselves without trying to artificially rig the market.

So back to the original premise: If BMW does the M2 right, it will be the true successor to the M3 concept of old in ways that the oversized (but admittedly sexy) M4 cannot.
It's not a ludicrous notion, it's history. That's what they do - and I didn't see a suggestion nor was it phrased poorly. Manufacturers do and will rig the market.

Also, comparing the 4 to the 5 is nothing like comparing the 2 to the 4 - 2/4 are very similar cars, size and weight are fairly close and both have 2 doors, and 6 cyl turbos .
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      08-19-2014, 04:16 PM   #37
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The "pie" will grow, they will sell less M3/M4 but the M2 will grow the market substantially. Since the M2 will be almost identical in size to the E46 M3 it will be the true M3 in my eyes. People will still buy the M3/M4 because they are great cars but damn they are getting expensive and going after a different demographic. How many people can afford a $75-80K car verses a $55-60K car. They still sell M5 and M6's but really you have make $200K a year to really think about owning one.
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      08-19-2014, 04:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
I just can't find any sense in your whole premise.
You are saying that because we the consumers want better-performing cars, the manufacturers won't build them? Or at least not without charging a premium for the extra performance.
Let me see if I can connect the dots for you. You say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
If the M2 lives up to its potential, the only reason anybody would buy the M4 is as a status symbol because it will cost more. And those kind of douchebags can't be helped.
Translation: if the M2 is as fast as the M4, only idiots will buy the M4.

Now pretend you're BMW. You know the M3/ M4 is a cash cow. You know that many of your customers want a comfortable, refined, and yes, larger car. You also know that if that car is slower than a significantly cheaper BMW model, quite a few people will call those customers "douchebags". Your cash-cow customers won't like that, nor will they appreciate paying more for a slower car.

So what do you do? Do you a) make the M2 all it can be, as quick or quicker than the M4, and make that car "obsolete" as you call it? Or do you b) limit the M2 to "good enough", slower than the M4 but still faster than other cars at that price point in your lineup, so that it doesn't cannibalize M4 sales?

The answer is simple- you chose B, which is why the M2 will not be allowed to achieve the potential it could easily and cost effectively reach.

Now imagine a different world, one where people like you didn't think the M4 buyer was a douchebag for buying the car. Instead you respected the car for what it is, a great compromise between performance and comfort, well targeted to what its buyers want, and worth, to many, the extra money. And those buyers in turn respected your choice of a smaller, less comfortable, less practical, but probably quicker car. Because honestly, neither of you are likely to use either car's full potential more than cumulative minutes over your entire ownership anyway, at least if you're not living next to the Autobahn or tracking regularly. In that world, a world where people buy cars for how they feel rather than the numbers, BMW could sell a non-neutered M2 and not cannibalize M4 sales.

But we don't live in that world- look no further than the mirror to know why.
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      08-19-2014, 04:59 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
So what is the solution?
Consumers will eventually be the solution, when they stop focusing on how fast a car is and start focusing on other things, like how fun a car is.

Supercars in the 80s were lucky to crack into the 5s 0-60. Today a fast SUV will wipe the floor with them, going low 4s while out handling them. So how fast will tomorrow's SUV's be? As fast as today's supercars- mid 2s to 60. So we'll all be driving Veyrons if this keeps up.

But how much fun is it to drive a Veyron in the US, really? You can use all of a Veryon for about 3 seconds in the US without risking your license. It's an exercise in frustration: as the cars get faster, the fishbowl just gets smaller. Or you can take another path, like the FRZ or Lotus: stop asking how fast, start asking how fun. And power is fun, but it's just one component of fun. But as long as people keep dropping 3k for a 10 hp upgrade that's within the manufacturing tolerances, manufactures will continue to play the current game, rather than the one that matters.
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      08-19-2014, 06:06 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post

So what do you do? Do you a) make the M2 all it can be, as quick or quicker than the M4, and make that car "obsolete" as you call it? Or do you b) limit the M2 to "good enough", slower than the M4 but still faster than other cars at that price point in your lineup, so that it doesn't cannibalize M4 sales?
Where is solution c) make the M2 faster than M4 and thus also cost more than M4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Consumers will eventually be the solution, when they stop focusing on how fast a car is and start focusing on other things, like how fun a car is.

Supercars in the 80s were lucky to crack into the 5s 0-60. Today a fast SUV will wipe the floor with them, going low 4s while out handling them. So how fast will tomorrow's SUV's be? As fast as today's supercars- mid 2s to 60. So we'll all be driving Veyrons if this keeps up.

But how much fun is it to drive a Veyron in the US, really? You can use all of a Veryon for about 3 seconds in the US without risking your license. It's an exercise in frustration: as the cars get faster, the fishbowl just gets smaller.
Won't happen, otherwise we'd already all be driving Toyota GT86 and Mazda MX-5, and BMW would have a Z2.
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      08-19-2014, 06:06 PM   #41
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No it won't. As the M2 comes to market in 2016 both M3 and M4 will receive their Competition Packet update. That would make it around two years since the M3 and M4 arrived on the market. Longer if we count the first launch.
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      08-19-2014, 06:12 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Where is solution c) make the M2 faster than M4 and thus also cost more than M4?
Reread A. Or ask Scott. I'd love to see an M2 CSL quicker than any M4. Don't see it for the reasons above...

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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Won't happen, otherwise we'd already all be driving Toyota GT86 and Mazda MX-5, and BMW would have a Z2.
Then why are we all driving RWD cars, when we know 4WD cars are now quicker? It's already happening.
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      08-19-2014, 10:29 PM   #43
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The current M4 is slightly better performance and way less expensive than the current M6, right? But it brings different buyers regardless of which reason (price, size, etc.), right? So by that logic the M2 can beat the M4 in performance and cost. Performance divided by cost is value. In the m6 is is luxury that keeps the value (P/C) high, for the M4 it is a complete package that keep value high. Maybe M2 finds it's place as a refined budget performance car and still make bean counters and enthusiasts happy.

The other thought I had is what happens to M235i when M2 comes along? Goes back to 235 or sticks around as m235? If the latter, then wholly M2 batman. If the m235 becomes a regular 235 then the m2 will still likely be a step up but less so.
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      08-20-2014, 06:14 AM   #44
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Wil the m2 make the M4 absolete?

In certain way yes.

I drove the M4 and it s a fantastic car. But if you are looking for smaller throw around fun car the M3/M4 has grown to big. The longer wheel base gives more comfort and if you want to drift the car you get lots more time to do counter steering if you compare it to a smaller wheelbase car.

But i would like to have M3 4 door as my every day family car and an 1M Coupe/M2 as my weekend fun car that would be my ideal garage.

But replace an 1M coupe or the upcoming M2 for an M3/M4 that s a no go for me for sure!!!
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