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      03-03-2014, 08:38 PM   #1
VanosKickedInYo
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M2 I6 > M2 I4

Man for all those who are disappointed that the M2 will be an I6 instead of a 4banger... Hold your vajay jays...

1) The M2 doesn't need to complete with an audi s3 or a Merc cla45 AMG when the m235i will probably be just as good or even better than these 'competitions.'

2) Bmw doesn't need to produce the 'highest output' 4 cylinder engines to 'keep up' with the rest of the Automobile Market... Sure the cla45 is pretty impressive on paper, but I guarantee you that its reliability is still in question (Especially when they don't have a long history of high-output F/I 4-Cylinder engine)... It's already pushing 26.1 PSI which means that its tunability would be both difficult and expensive... If you want to compare this with any other high-performance 4-cylinder engines, the 2.0L 4B11T (Evo X) is pushing around 19.1Psi and I believe the EJ257 (STI) is pushing around 14.5Psi. I know this isn't really fair to compare because these cars are obviously in different-classes and have completely different uses altogether, but once you boost the Evo and the Sti to near 25 PSI, they will sh** all over the CLA. (Yes and I know the whole point of this 'competition' everybody is hyping about is to see which Company can create the highest output built straight from production... but I think it's fair to say both the STi and the Evo already has an higher-output when we start to factor in the fact that the Sti and Evo can push up to the mid 25psi as well without any engine-modification and probably is more reliable and produce much more hp than the cla... Yeah the cla comes stock boost with 26.1 psi but what can you do to squeeze any more power out without spending thousands to modify the internals,etc? (So Long story short, the engine in the cla is impressive, but actually not really...)

3) Bmw's I-6's is and has been blowing every competition in it's class for a very long time... (Of course I'm Excluding the boxer engines from porsche since most people will consider porsche to be in another class)
Look, like many people have been mentioning for years... No one has really unlocked the full potential of what the n55 can push... I mean stock it's only pushing 10psi... This is probably the reason why Bmw has refused to focus their time and finances to rebuild another engine and instead have been trying to improve and perfect the n55 specifically for several models... They know that the n55 has so much power to be tapped while being a perfectly reliable engine at the same time...

(So instead of either complaining about the m2 not getting a 4-banger or an s55, why don't we Just give bmw just a bit more time and I think they'll impress us with the n55...)

4) Like I sort of was implying above, the n55 is not an 'outdated' engine... Bmw has kept on changing the internals, ecu's, etc in order to keep on improving the powerband, responsiveness, fuel-mileage, and reliability of the engine. I mean once you start replacing the Cams, Headers, and the Pistons... Once you start Messing around with fuel compression, etc... Technically, it's not the same Engine! (Well just in my opinion)

And Yes, the n20 is one damn good 4-cylinder... I think it's actually the best in its class... (Factoring in the Power-band, Fuel-Consumption, Responsiveness) And Yes, Bmw can choose to modify the n20 in order to compete with the rest of the high-output 4-bangers but why go through all that trouble when they have spent so much time in improving the n55? We can go in circles about 'weight reduction' between the I6 and the 4 but it's not actually that different... + you have to factor in again how much power the I6 can produce while being reliable vs how much the 4 will do at the same time.

So to sum everything up... Whatever Engine the m2 will come out with, it will be a one hell of a Monster!
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      03-03-2014, 08:44 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanosKickedInYo
Man for all those who are disappointed that the M2 will be an I6 instead of a 4banger... Hold your vajay jays...

1) The M2 doesn't need to complete with an audi s3 or a Merc cla45 AMG when the m235i will probably be just as good or even better than these 'competitions.'

2) Bmw doesn't need to produce the 'highest output' 4 cylinder engines to 'keep up' with the rest of the Automobile Market... Sure the cla45 is pretty impressive on paper, but I guarantee you that its reliability is still in question (Especially when they don't have a long history of high-output F/I 4-Cylinder engine)... It's already pushing 26.1 PSI which means that its tunability would be both difficult and expensive... If you want to compare this with any other high-performance 4-cylinder engines, the 2.0L 4B11T (Evo X) is pushing around 19.1Psi and I believe the EJ257 (STI) is pushing around 14.5Psi. I know this isn't really fair to compare because these cars are obviously in different-classes and have completely different uses altogether, but once you boost the Evo and the Sti to near 25 PSI, they will sh** all over the CLA. (Yes and I know the whole point of this 'competition' everybody is hyping about is to see which Company can create the highest output built straight from production... but I think it's fair to say both the STi and the Evo already has an higher-output when we start to factor in the fact that the Sti and Evo can push up to the mid 25psi as well without any engine-modification and probably is more reliable and produce much more hp than the cla... Yeah the cla comes stock boost with 26.1 psi but what can you do to squeeze any more power out without spending thousands to modify the internals,etc? (So Long story short, the engine in the cla is impressive, but actually not really...)

3) Bmw's I-6's is and has been blowing every competition in it's class for a very long time... (Of course I'm Excluding the boxer engines from porsche since most people will consider porsche to be in another class)
Look, like many people have been mentioning for years... No one has really unlocked the full potential of what the n55 can push... I mean stock it's only pushing 10psi... This is probably the reason why Bmw has refused to focus their time and finances to rebuild another engine and instead have been trying to improve and perfect the n55 specifically for several models... They know that the n55 has so much power to be tapped while being a perfectly reliable engine at the same time...

(So instead of either complaining about the m2 not getting a 4-banger or an s55, why don't we Just give bmw just a bit more time and I think they'll impress us with the n55...)

4) Like I sort of was implying above, the n55 is not an 'outdated' engine... Bmw has kept on changing the internals, ecu's, etc in order to keep on improving the powerband, responsiveness, fuel-mileage, and reliability of the engine. I mean once you start replacing the Cams, Headers, and the Pistons... Once you start Messing around with fuel compression, etc... Technically, it's not the same Engine! (Well just in my opinion)

And Yes, the n20 is one damn good 4-cylinder... I think it's actually the best in its class... (Factoring in the Power-band, Fuel-Consumption, Responsiveness) And Yes, Bmw can choose to modify the n20 in order to compete with the rest of the high-output 4-bangers but why go through all that trouble when they have spent so much time in improving the n55? We can go in circles about 'weight reduction' between the I6 and the 4 but it's not actually that different... + you have to factor in again how much power the I6 can produce while being reliable vs how much the 4 will do at the same time.

So to sum everything up... Whatever Engine the m2 will come out with, it will be a one hell of a Monster!
Agreed 100% except the N20 part, that motor sucks.
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      03-03-2014, 08:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
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Agreed 100% except the N20 part, that motor sucks.
ahh hah! To each his own
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      03-03-2014, 11:19 PM   #4
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To hope has always been a S48 and not a S20. However, I truly understands why it won't have a bespoke engine. It makes a lot of business sense.
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      03-04-2014, 05:59 AM   #5
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Audi has revealed a 2.0l I4 TFSI making 420 PS in the TT Quattro Sport Concept. 0-100 km/h in 3.7 sec.

The N55 is not a performance engine and is not worth in an M car, otherwise the M3/M4 would have it instead of the S55.
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      03-04-2014, 11:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Audi has revealed a 2.0l I4 TFSI making 420 PS in the TT Quattro Sport Concept. 0-100 km/h in 3.7 sec.

The N55 is not a performance engine and is not worth in an M car, otherwise the M3/M4 would have it instead of the S55.
**0-100 km/h in 4.7. Not 3.7
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      03-04-2014, 12:15 PM   #7
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**0-100 km/h in 4.7. Not 3.7
it's actually 3.7s for the sport quattro concept!
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      03-04-2014, 12:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Audi has revealed a 2.0l I4 TFSI making 420 PS in the TT Quattro Sport Concept. 0-100 km/h in 3.7 sec.

The N55 is not a performance engine and is not worth in an M car, otherwise the M3/M4 would have it instead of the S55.
I've mentioned it before and I guess I'll mention it again if you didn't understand the whole point. Yeah 410Hp is darn impressive from a 2.0 4cylinder from production, but the fact still remains how reliable the engine will be.

The n54 certain had problems with their hpfp failures and that's why bmw replaced it with the n55... but at the same time, it still never really had a turbo issue nor other internal malfunction as well...

Well however, Audi hasn't even managed to get their 2.0 TFSI working fully properly and is reported to have many turbo failures in the past/currently... This is quite disappointing since Audi has been producing 4-cylinder turbo engines for close to two decades, if my memory serves me right... + factor in the fact that their 4-cylinder engines is/has been the most sold engine and you have to start wondering if trying to produce 410hp in a 4-cylinder is a wise idea when the company can't even get their 210hp engine to work properly.

Again, like I've mentioned... Instead of wondering why m2 isn't using an s55 like the m3/m4, maybe we should wait it out and see what they can do to their n55... Hey who knows, maybe it will be just a s55 they will be putting instead...

The n55 is a very capable car, especially when a jb tuned 135/335i can pull ahead up to 110mph-ish vs. my m3 before I start to walk it... And all without having any real internal mods... Put a better IC, Intake, downpipe, etc, and it will walk my m3 until it starts hitting 150 mph +
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      03-04-2014, 12:43 PM   #9
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That still doesn't mean it's fun. The N55 blah, blah, blah. I've owned M cars, but I won't own one with that engine. Since I haven't driven anything with the S55, I'll just have to wait until they're out.

As for the N54, it was replaced for cost reasons, not reliability, as the N55 started life with the same problematic HPFP which led to the same problems. I've owned both, and while I personally wouldn't want an N54 in an M car, it's a heck of a lot better than the N55.
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      03-04-2014, 01:26 PM   #10
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You dont want an over 350hp 4 banger turbo... that will be a reliability nightmare. Not to mention the nvh associated w a 4 cylinder.
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      03-04-2014, 02:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
That still doesn't mean it's fun. The N55 blah, blah, blah. I've owned M cars, but I won't own one with that engine. Since I haven't driven anything with the S55, I'll just have to wait until they're out.

As for the N54, it was replaced for cost reasons, not reliability, as the N55 started life with the same problematic HPFP which led to the same problems. I've owned both, and while I personally wouldn't want an N54 in an M car, it's a heck of a lot better than the N55.
Well if you have money/time to burn, by all means, get the Audi or w.e... Doesn't really matter to me Might as well get a 2 Liter 4-Cylinder Engine and Shove a 2JZ Turbo and Push 700 Horses and see how fun that will be... Pretty Fun in trying to maintain the Sh** out of it.

If we're talking about the general market, most customers would definitely factor in Reliability as One of the Most Important Factors in buying a Car...

Yeah, n55 might had some hpfp problem but was a Vast improvement when we're talking how many HPFP has failed between n54 and n55. + It STARTED to have a problem but BMW has been pretty good in fixing it with the newer models...

You can Pull 1000 Horses from a 30 Year old v8 Muscle Car for what matters... Doesn't mean it's better than the v8's the world today is producing with 300-400hp...

But again, to each his own. If you don't like the n55 it's fine. I just think the n55 is very capable.
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      03-04-2014, 03:03 PM   #12
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It's weird, I don't feel like I said the N55 wasn't capable. There's one in my wife's car. It's just nothing like what I want out of an actual M motor. And it's an M car, a little bit more maintenance (see S54's shimmed valves) is fine with me.

If this were about fun, not money, I'd much prefer a 3,100 pound M2 with 340 hp to a 3,400 pound one with 380 hp, even though they'd both have roughly the same power to weight.

What's the point of an M2 if it's just an M235i with less of a tune than the aftermarket will already provide and some optional $8k ceramic brakes?
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      03-04-2014, 05:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
It's weird, I don't feel like I said the N55 wasn't capable. There's one in my wife's car. It's just nothing like what I want out of an actual M motor. And it's an M car, a little bit more maintenance (see S54's shimmed valves) is fine with me.

If this were about fun, not money, I'd much prefer a 3,100 pound M2 with 340 hp to a 3,400 pound one with 380 hp, even though they'd both have roughly the same power to weight.

What's the point of an M2 if it's just an M235i with less of a tune than the aftermarket will already provide and some optional $8k ceramic brakes?
I lean towards this comment; 1M had a massaged N54 which was already a strong engine with great tuning potential, and the reason was budget and time constraints back then. It did really well under those circumstances. I would only pass to a M2 if this time (as promised by BMW many times) they would develop it from blank paper and with no or at least much less budget and time constraints. That would be something new and worthy, be it four or six banger. With this start, I am not keeping my hopes very high for a 'special' car. It might well be a very good car, more performant, best in its class against competition and everything but if it lacks that 'it' factor that even 1M had in spades despite being essentially a parts bin car (because it was a week-end garage project of the M engineers themselves) I won't find it worthy of a upgrade after the 1M.

I sense too much of a business case here if a N55 based M2 will turn out to be the case and am afraid that they won't let it to be too good against the presence of M3/M4.

At least 1M was same chassis in a small package with a torquey turbo engine vs. the screaming V8 of the E9X M3; so it was an alternative, a different proposal. What is going to be really, essentially different with the N55 equipped M2? Only people who can't afford the M3 will go and buy it or ones who want a new lease after their 1 series.

I wanted it to be the best M car not second or third.
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      03-04-2014, 05:49 PM   #14
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the N55 in my 135is feels FANTASTIC.....so i have no problems with the M2 having the N55. It is a very smooth and linear engine with lots of power in all ranges......i've driven N54s in the past on several different cars; i appreciate it, but don't find the N55 to be much of a deviation from the overall feel of the N54.

Wasn't the S55 partially derived from the N55?
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      03-04-2014, 06:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
the N55 in my 135is feels FANTASTIC.....so i have no problems with the M2 having the N55. It is a very smooth and linear engine with lots of power in all ranges......i've driven N54s in the past on several different cars; i appreciate it, but don't find the N55 to be much of a deviation from the overall feel of the N54.

Wasn't the S55 partially derived from the N55?
Yes, but it is not an N55, it is an S55. M2 will be the poor man's M4. Unfortunate.
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      03-04-2014, 06:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
the N55 in my 135is feels FANTASTIC.....so i have no problems with the M2 having the N55. It is a very smooth and linear engine with lots of power in all ranges......i've driven N54s in the past on several different cars; i appreciate it, but don't find the N55 to be much of a deviation from the overall feel of the N54.

Wasn't the S55 partially derived from the N55?
Yes, but it is not an N55, it is an S55. M2 will be the poor man's M4. Unfortunate.
that's fine with me....these are all very nice cars. I'd like to meet the 'poor man' who can afford an M2.

many of us can afford an M3/M4 but prefer a smaller more engaging package. FWIW my backup plan is either an F80 M3 or buying out my 135is lease.
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      03-05-2014, 03:53 AM   #17
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that's fine with me....these are all very nice cars. I'd like to meet the 'poor man' who can afford an M2.

many of us can afford an M3/M4 but prefer a smaller more engaging package. FWIW my backup plan is either an F80 M3 or buying out my 135is lease.

That is how everybody calls the 981. And for me the 981 is better than the 911. Just lacks the right engine (not that I need it or can handle the desired power). But that is what BMW will do with the M2 if it only get an N55. Honestly I see no purpose in it, same equipment/options as M235i, same engine, only different suspension and CF roof? Not enough for a true M car like the M3, M4, M5, M6, X5 M and X6 M are.
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      03-05-2014, 05:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
that's fine with me....these are all very nice cars. I'd like to meet the 'poor man' who can afford an M2.

many of us can afford an M3/M4 but prefer a smaller more engaging package. FWIW my backup plan is either an F80 M3 or buying out my 135is lease.

That is how everybody calls the 981. And for me the 981 is better than the 911. Just lacks the right engine (not that I need it or can handle the desired power). But that is what BMW will do with the M2 if it only get an N55. Honestly I see no purpose in it, same equipment/options as M235i, same engine, only different suspension and CF roof? Not enough for a true M car like the M3, M4, M5, M6, X5 M and X6 M are.
the 1M had a different steering rack, the rear setup from an M3, brake and suspension modifications amongst other things. To me it was definitely a true M car----no matter what the E9X M3 owners say.....the M2 seems like it will be carrying the spirit. For me that's more than enough to consider this a 'true' M car. There are budget concerns here as well. Nobody wants a $65k M2, hence they do the best they can to stay within limits. If using a tweaked version of a current engine is needed to do that then so be it, IMO.

as for the Cayman....I've driven a bunch of 911s and Caymans and there is nothing lacking in the Cayman.....it's every bit as good to drive as a 911. Anyone who still thinks the Cayman is a 'poor man's 911' either hasn't driven a Cayman, hasn't driven a 911, or is just too preoccupied with stereotypes. It has it's own personality just like the 1 and 2 series have their own.
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      03-05-2014, 05:50 AM   #19
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Levi:
You first call an M2 a poor man's M3.

IEDIE responds: He wants to meet that poor man driving an M2.

Me too...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
That is how everybody calls the 981. And for me the 981 is better than the 911. Just lacks the right engine (not that I need it or can handle the desired power). But that is what BMW will do with the M2 if it only get an N55. Honestly I see no purpose in it, same equipment/options as M235i, same engine, only different suspension and CF roof? Not enough for a true M car like the M3, M4, M5, M6, X5 M and X6 M are.

The whole Porsche thing I agree with.

The last sentence : X5M/X6M.

Surely //M is about big and heavy expensive straighline speed vehicles the last decade.

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      03-05-2014, 05:56 AM   #20
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1M: I'd never want to trade places with even a 2013 E92 M3 even if the 'poor guy' gave me 10,000 US $ in cash.

Never.

By general definition it's not an M, but it surely is in feel, emotion, sportiness and driving fun. 100%.



Cheers
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      03-05-2014, 07:56 AM   #21
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Levi:
You first call an M2 a poor man's M3.

IEDIE responds: He wants to meet that poor man driving an M2.

Me too...
I did not mean that in the sense of price. If the M2 is just smaller than an M4 and has less space, has a less sophisticated engine (N55 vs. S55) though I6, has most options but no HUD for example, it does sound like a "cheap" M4, and thus a poor man's M4. What I wish the M2 to be is something different than the M4, with focus on sportiness, something hard-core, and just an inferior M4.

If the M2 is more hard-core than the M4, will less useless options (HUD, electric heated seats, etc.), M4 won't lose customers.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
The whole Porsche thing I agree with.

The last sentence : X5M/X6M.

Surely //M is about big and heavy expensive straighline speed vehicles the last decade.
Nothing M about them, but at least they still have more R&D into them than an M235i which in fact is nothing than a 235i with M body kit, suspension, wheels and some more badges.
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      03-05-2014, 11:29 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL
1M: I'd never want to trade places with even a 2013 E92 M3 even if the 'poor guy' gave me 10,000 US $ in cash.

Never.

By general definition it's not an M, but it surely is in feel, emotion, sportiness and driving fun. 100%.



Cheers
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I am with you there... the 1Ms only fault is twitchiness and poor aero but otherwise amazing.
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