[rbahr]

Hi All,

Car is a M2C - weighs in at 3600lbs with gas & driver.

I am running the big brake AP racing setup in front to give access to 18" rims.

Done a handful of events, the last being a short tight track - so lots of braking, and I have gone through a set of rotors BEFORE I went through a set of pads. I am using Ferodo FRP3014GB. These pads absolutely destroyed the rotors. The stopped the car well, and did not have a heat problem, and I have a little cooling in the front, but probably not enough - another question is: is there a reasonable aftermarket cooling setup for this car?

Anyway, I am considering a set of PFC 01 pads for the front - I have a long, positive, and painfully expensive history with PFC parts...

Any experience out there or comments or suggestions?

I am coming from a GT3 with amazing brakes, and so far, am a little underwhelmed with the M2's.

Thanks

Ray

[E90convert]

I assume your brake shields are removed? You could buy the GT3 control arm air deflectors to get a little more air funneled to them.

[Track/S]

Use cooling ducts from csr

[rbahr]

E90convert, Yep I have done that.

Track/S: can you point me to a picture?

Thanks

Ray

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by rbahr

E90convert, Yep I have done that.

Track/S: can you point me to a picture?

Thanks

Ray

I don't have a program to see the parts, but I can ask my dealer to send me pictures and part numbers.

I had these custom ducts in my car, although I don't have brake problems.

[E90convert]

Those almost look 3D printed from this picture!

[OG Shark]

Track/S is picking up the air from the lower center opening. Typically it just dumps into the fender well. Directing it like he did can be helpful. To make it effective specifically for the brakes it would be best to continue the flow into a backing plate that is specifically made for brake cooling. The design of the backing plate is critical too - that can be messed up very easily and actually create more issues. The CS Racing incorporates another opening from higher up on the bumper to create an additional path for flow to the brakes. Requires cutting the bumper for the inlets and then creating a path back to the wheel well. I believe the CSR also uses a third inlet but have not looked into that one much.



I'm not a fan of ducts on street cars as they can be hard to make worth with the steering range a street car has/needs. Much easier to plumb and not tear up on race cars that have minimal steering lock to lock. Can be done though. I also don't like them when driving on the street as they can cool the brakes off out of their optimal working range. Aero hits can also be an issue. Perfect world you can remove/replace them easily if you do choose to run them on the track. With the oem vent already in place though I do feel that is the best place to start if cooling is needed.

I run AP discs and yes the 3.12 is an abrasive pad and will wear the disc more than the 1.11 for example. These are heavy cars and capable of some very fast speeds which results in a lot of pressure on the brakes to keep up. For as good as the Essex/AP kits are (and they are absolutely excellent) my M2 is the first car that I have run them on that will push the AP kit past its limits and show signs of fade. Full weight at the pace we got the car too while still in perfect street trim is very hard on the brakes. Even not at the pace we can get in our car the brakes are still being worked very hard - definitely going to create a lot of wear. This was the main driver in our gutting that particular M2 for moving forward as we were moving to big power and no brakes would keep up at the speeds we should be running without serious weight reduction and/or cooling modifications. We are building another M2C in the same manner as we did with the first phase of our 223 build (brakes, tune, Nitron) except that we are adding the Full Race turbos (just too awesome on both street/track to not include them). I fully expect to need to incorporate some cooling at the pace the car will run on the track but have a bit of the same dilemma about how to go about it. The current plan is to route something like Track/S has to a backing plate. Clearing steering though will be the key. rbahr another option you could look at are the Girodisc direct replacement rotors/hats for the F8x AP kits. Little bit thicker than the AP j hooks. I haven't run them so cannot personally give any feedback as I like the complete Essex/AP system - but they are another option you might consider.

[medphysdave]

Are there ways to vent the fenders to keep a high velocity of cool air flowing in and out? What's the next stop after AP calipers? Bigger rotors and calipers with larger pads?

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Track/S is picking up the air from the lower center opening. Typically it just dumps into the fender well. Directing it like he did can be helpful. To make it effective specifically for the brakes it would be best to continue the flow into a backing plate that is specifically made for brake cooling. The design of the backing plate is critical too - that can be messed up very easily and actually create more issues. The CS Racing incorporates another opening from higher up on the bumper to create an additional path for flow to the brakes. Requires cutting the bumper for the inlets and then creating a path back to the wheel well. I believe the CSR also uses a third inlet but have not looked into that one much.



I'm not a fan of ducts on street cars as they can be hard to make worth with the steering range a street car has/needs. Much easier to plumb and not tear up on race cars that have minimal steering lock to lock. Can be done though. I also don't like them when driving on the street as they can cool the brakes off out of their optimal working range. Aero hits can also be an issue. Perfect world you can remove/replace them easily if you do choose to run them on the track. With the oem vent already in place though I do feel that is the best place to start if cooling is needed.

I run AP discs and yes the 3.12 is an abrasive pad and will wear the disc more than the 1.11 for example. These are heavy cars and capable of some very fast speeds which results in a lot of pressure on the brakes to keep up. For as good as the Essex/AP kits are (and they are absolutely excellent) my M2 is the first car that I have run them on that will push the AP kit past its limits and show signs of fade. Full weight at the pace we got the car too while still in perfect street trim is very hard on the brakes. Even not at the pace we can get in our car the brakes are still being worked very hard - definitely going to create a lot of wear. This was the main driver in our gutting that particular M2 for moving forward as we were moving to big power and no brakes would keep up at the speeds we should be running without serious weight reduction and/or cooling modifications. We are building another M2C in the same manner as we did with the first phase of our 223 build (brakes, tune, Nitron) except that we are adding the Full Race turbos (just too awesome on both street/track to not include them). I fully expect to need to incorporate some cooling at the pace the car will run on the track but have a bit of the same dilemma about how to go about it. The current plan is to route something like Track/S has to a backing plate. Clearing steering though will be the key. rbahr another option you could look at are the Girodisc direct replacement rotors/hats for the F8x AP kits. Little bit thicker than the AP j hooks. I haven't run them so cannot personally give any feedback as I like the complete Essex/AP system - but they are another option you might consider.

Yes, I knew that those ducts were for brakes, I wanted to see the inside, because the csr has little space on the fender due to 10.5rim.

Originally Posted by E90convert

Those almost look 3D printed from this picture!

Yes they are 3d printed

[rbahr]

Thanks Guys,

I also saw that if you run those pads on the street, they have a tendency to destroy the rotors, and I put a couple of K miles on the street. Just ordered a set of FS2300 for the street.

OG, thanks for the pointer to Girodisk. I was looking for alternatives to the AP rotors. I have traditionally used PFC on my track cars, They can be an annoying company to deal with, but the brakes work well. Sadly to don't have anything that works with the AP setup except for pads that are a 01 compound which is even more aggressive than the Ferodo part. Forgot to mention, but I am running the endurance setup with 24mm pads.

I agree with what you said about cooling, and getting air into the center of the rotor is important which is why the CSR has the cover for the caliper. P/N 2 on the brake cooling section. I would love to have those parts, but we are looking at $$$

here are the parts and cost for the CSR: https://parts.bmwofstratham.com/BMW_...pe/Brakes.html

I am not ready to start down the slippery race car slope with this car, been there, done that to many times. The M2 is a bit to portly for that...

Thanks

Ray

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by rbahr

Thanks Guys,
I am not ready to start down the slippery race car slope with this car, been there, done that to many times. The M2 is a bit to portly for that...

Thanks

Ray

I think that using these 2 parts with their 2 corresponding tubes would be enough, and you don't have to modify anything:

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Are there ways to vent the fenders to keep a high velocity of cool air flowing in and out? What's the next stop after AP calipers? Bigger rotors and calipers with larger pads?

Without directing them properly into the center of the disc the airflow like that won’t make a difference. You would also need to go to a fender vent setup like Anonymoose just installed to vacate the air and not much keen to run those on a street car. For a non-flat bottom track car though they do help reduce the pressure in the wheel well so there is a benefit there. You can also swap to a fender with an opening behind the wheel but again for me not what I would want on a car that sees street time.

Stay with the same setup - no mechanical improvement there. Now have to help the brakes though. Either reduce weight, add cooling, or go slower. Two of those aren’t much of an option so we will be looking at options to run cooling while still being able to run wider wheels on the street and retain lock to lock steering. He

Originally Posted by rbahr

Thanks Guys,

I also saw that if you run those pads on the street, they have a tendency to destroy the rotors, and I put a couple of K miles on the street. Just ordered a set of FS2300 for the street.

OG, thanks for the pointer to Girodisk. I was looking for alternatives to the AP rotors. I have traditionally used PFC on my track cars, They can be an annoying company to deal with, but the brakes work well. Sadly to don't have anything that works with the AP setup except for pads that are a 01 compound which is even more aggressive than the Ferodo part. Forgot to mention, but I am running the endurance setup with 24mm pads.

I agree with what you said about cooling, and getting air into the center of the rotor is important which is why the CSR has the cover for the caliper. P/N 2 on the brake cooling section. I would love to have those parts, but we are looking at $$$

here are the parts and cost for the CSR: https://parts.bmwofstratham.com/BMW_...pe/Brakes.html

I am not ready to start down the slippery race car slope with this car, been there, done that to many times. The M2 is a bit to portly for that...

Thanks

Ray

Yeah exactly - the weight of these cars can be tough on consumables. So much potential in the platform and such a high fun factor and utility level though - just a bit of the unfortunate trade off for all that. The car is excellent as a race car - but a dual duty track/street car is where I feel it really shines and yeah don’t blame you not wanting to go down that road. Big reason I haven’t cared much to try the G87 is the weight. Can already get the F87 to where the weight becomes an issue - can’t image the G87 fairing better with the extra heft.

[Anonymoose]

I like the brake vents but mine is dedicated track. Here’s a pic or it and the cfd data.

[rbahr]

Anonymoose: did you measure the cfd?

I actually like that look - where did you get the vents?

OG: I agree about the weight - It surprises my just how heavy these cars are! My last street car -> race car was an STi. A platform whose design envelope was far smaller than the car's potential - weight and heat were the biggest culprits!

Thanks

Ray

[Anonymoose]

Originally Posted by rbahr

Anonymoose: did you measure the cfd?

I actually like that look - where did you get the vents?

OG: I agree about the weight - It surprises my just how heavy these cars are! My last street car -> race car was an STi. A platform whose design envelope was far smaller than the car's potential - weight and heat were the biggest culprits!

Thanks

Ray

Yeti Racecraft did the CFD that I posted. It's one of the reasons why I added the vents. I also do like how they turned out.

https://www.yetiracecraft.com/store/p/style-01-ltnse

Time lapse install

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Csv2R...RlODBiNWFlZA==

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

Are there ways to vent the fenders to keep a high velocity of cool air flowing in and out? What's the next stop after AP calipers? Bigger rotors and calipers with larger pads?

BMW M-Performance has some fenders with vents in the lower wheel area and wheel well liners to match. I wish they didn't get rid of the black M2 element/emblem mid way up at the character line though.

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I like the brake vents but mine is dedicated track. Here’s a pic or it and the cfd data.

I had been wondering if you were running wheel well liners or not, but if you actually commissioned CFD, then I think it's safe to assume you're properly not running the liners.

I can't stand all those 911 GT3 style vent fenders with people still running wheel well liners blocking them...

[Anonymoose]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I had been wondering if you were running wheel well liners or not, but if you actually commissioned CFD, then I think it's safe to assume you're properly not running the liners.

I can't stand all those 911 GT3 style vent fenders with people still running wheel well liners blocking them...

Wheel liners are removed but my windshield washer bottle is in the way of the right side. They need to take that out.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

BMW M-Performance has some fenders with vents in the lower wheel area and wheel well liners to match. I wish they didn't get rid of the black M2 element/emblem mid way up at the character line though.






I had been wondering if you were running wheel well liners or not, but if you actually commissioned CFD, then I think it's safe to assume you're properly not running the liners.

I can't stand all those 911 GT3 style vent fenders with people still running wheel well liners blocking them...

All the CFD was done based on liners out and with no obstruction to flow. Those fenders you reference above are nice too - I have a set floating around the shop and it’s great they have the liners to match. It does look a little weird though with the emblem changed like that - but definitely awesome pieces.

Yeti ran the cfd while we were working on the aero for my big build. He does some awesome work.

[FaRKle!]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

All the CFD was done based on liners out and with no obstruction to flow. Those fenders you reference above are nice too - I have a set floating around the shop and it’s great they have the liners to match. It does look a little weird though with the emblem changed like that - but definitely awesome pieces.

Yeti ran the cfd while we were working on the aero for my big build. He does some awesome work.

I've been mulling over getting a set of the GT3 vent style fenders, and then modifying the wheel well liners with ducting so it's actually functional. Probably won't get around to that for a long while if ever though

[butraymond]

Originally Posted by FaRKle!

I've been mulling over getting a set of the GT3 vent style fenders, and then modifying the wheel well liners with ducting so it's actually functional. Probably won't get around to that for a long while if ever though

The m performance fender you mentioned comes with vented fender liner.
And there are third party companies copycat this for half even third of the price.

[Track/S]

Originally Posted by butraymond

The m performance fender you mentioned comes with vented fender liner.
And there are third party companies copycat this for half even third of the price.

Some example?

[butraymond]

Originally Posted by Track/S

Some example?

RW carbon