[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by mbrunner

I think as I stated in another thread, the sound of the engine with stock exhaust was a bit of a letdown to me. Glad to know that there are exhausts/DP changes that can really open up some of the noises the car is capable of making. Now if only we could get rid of electric steering racks!

The sound of the car with a catted DP is absolutely exhilarating. I cant get enough of it.

I actually dont mind the steering at all. My last car was a 307Z and that damn thing was like driving a sketchy meth tweaker. It darted all over the freeway, constantly hunting in and out of every little rut. It was exhausting to drive. The M by comparison just goes laser straight, even on rough, rutted, and uneven surfaces. Maybe that's more to do with chassis and less with steering? I don't know. But I don't find myself caring or even thinking about the steering. Probably because i dont have the perspective of having owned a 1M or an e46 M2 to compare it with. I'm blissfully ignorant!

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Top 5 dislikes on e46 M3:

1. It's not fun unless you drive it the way it's meant to be driven. In other words, it takes effort to drive it smooth when driving it "normal".
2. It lacks serious low end torque by today's standard
3. At 14 years old one does worry about reliability, no matter how pristine the condition.
4. Running out of things to do to improve it to my liking
5. Having to smog it every two years

Top 5 likes on e46 M3:

1. N/A engine, 8k redline, throttle response etc and close to the perfect car when you do wind it out.
2. Looks! Absolutely love it. Timeless beauty. IMO it will age as well or better than the 3.0 CSL and the original 6-series
3. Hydraulic steering and feel in general.
4. Can still do some work to it myself and has a dipstick ;-)
5. Value retention, if I don't overdue it with pilling on the miles

My biggest hope with making the switch to an M2 would be to get more use out of it. The problem with my e46 M3 is that while it checks many of the boxes, I have it set up as a HPDE car, but at the same time it is also somewhat of a garage queen. Therefor it is even less suited for DD, which I think it is a bit to begin with. Not that I wanted it for that, but I feel the need for a car that I can drive more than just twice a month, between my half dozen track days per year. My hope would be that the M2 would be a better compromise for a second (track car) that is still suited for more daily driving, while it would not be my every day car. Does that make sense?



I agree, keeping both would be the perfect scenario, but the proceeds from it unfortunately would pay for more than half of the M2 and will be needed.

Man, that's a really tough call!

IMO, all dislikes are addressed by the M2. It's a blast to drive at 4/10ths, will be under warranty, no emissions issues, and it's a blank slate for you to start fresh with customizing.

As for what you love about the e46: #1 may leave you wanting, but what you trade off in analog throttle response and upper limit RPM, you gain in low end grunt. So your dislike about the e46 is solved but at the expense of your #1 like. Looks are totally subjective. Only you can answer that one. I love the look of the e46 but I prefer the slightly more aggressive look of the M2. Hydraulic steering is a loss in the M2 column. Everyone says it cant compete with the 1M or the e46 for feel. I, however, think it feels just fine, but I'm not a discerning track driver as it sounds like you are so this may well really bug you. You can still do plenty of work on the car yourself, but with it under warranty do you want to? Value retention is a total unknown. The e46 may appreciate in value if you keep the miles low, where as no one knows where the M2 will fall off.

Personally, I think you likely will miss the e46. We tend to romanticize the ones that we let go. My advise: Keep the e46 for a few more years and save up so you dont have to sell it to fund the M2 purchase. There will be plenty of cheap used M2s by, say, 2020 or 2021. Then you can buy the M2, keep the e46, and see if you actually "miss" the e46 while it's still in your garage.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Man, that's a really tough call!

IMO, all dislikes are addressed by the M2. It's a blast to drive at 4/10ths, will be under warranty, no emissions issues, and it's a blank slate for you to start fresh with customizing.

As for what you love about the e46: #1 may leave you wanting, but what you trade off in analog throttle response and upper limit RPM, you gain in low end grunt. So your dislike about the e46 is solved but at the expense of your #1 like. Looks are totally subjective. Only you can answer that one. I love the look of the e46 but I prefer the slightly more aggressive look of the M2. Hydraulic steering is a loss in the M2 column. Everyone says it cant compete with the 1M or the e46 for feel. I, however, think it feels just fine, but I'm not a discerning track driver as it sounds like you are so this may well really bug you. You can still do plenty of work on the car yourself, but with it under warranty do you want to? Value retention is a total unknown. The e46 may appreciate in value if you keep the miles low, where as no one knows where the M2 will fall off.

Personally, I think you likely will miss the e46. We tend to romanticize the ones that we let go. My advise: Keep the e46 for a few more years and save up so you dont have to sell it to fund the M2 purchase. There will be plenty of cheap used M2s by, say, 2020 or 2021. Then you can buy the M2, keep the e46, and see if you actually "miss" the e46 while it's still in your garage.

Great input. I appreciate it. Definitely sounds like the M2 would get rid of all the dislikes. I personally like the E46 looks better, but with the right mods and wheels the M2 could come very close.

My DD is a Mk6 GTI and I am familiar what a turbo engine feels like and have come to appreciate it. Torque is addicting and like I said, the e46 M3 only feels powerful enough when flogging it which the GTI never does (at almost half the hp). At the track there are a some occasions where teh M3 could use a bit more low end grunt, but for the most part it has enough power. It's mainly for street driving where it feels silly at times to have to wind it up to get it moving. I feel like a boy racer driving it on the street at times because of that.

I could afford to keep it and still get an M2, that isn't entirely the reason to get rid of it........... but try to convince the wife that I need 3 cars, when I convincing her that I needed 2 was already a challenge. Unless I get rid of the GTI, but then I am doomed to make the M2 a DD, which I don't want to do either.

FWIW, this is my second e46 M3, and while I regretted selling the first one, I might have gotten it out of my system now that I had my fun with this one on track. I missed out on that with the first one.

[c1pher]

I appreciate all the thoughts and feedback, thanks!

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

On a side note, my mom thought the M2 rode better than the F80 ZCP - I guess it's all relative, right?

I love how both ride.

Moms knows best

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Great input. I appreciate it. Definitely sounds like the M2 would get rid of all the dislikes. I personally like the E46 looks better, but with the right mods and wheels the M2 could come very close.

My DD is a Mk6 GTI and I am familiar what a turbo engine feels like and have come to appreciate it. Torque is addicting and like I said, the e46 M3 only feels powerful enough when flogging it which the GTI never does (at almost half the hp). At the track there are a some occasions where teh M3 could use a bit more low end grunt, but for the most part it has enough power. It's mainly for street driving where it feels silly at times to have to wind it up to get it moving. I feel like a boy racer driving it on the street at times because of that.

I could afford to keep it and still get an M2, that isn't entirely the reason to get rid of it........... but try to convince the wife that I need 3 cars, when I convincing her that I needed 2 was already a challenge. Unless I get rid of the GTI, but then I am doomed to make the M2 a DD, which I don't want to do either.

FWIW, this is my second e46 M3, and while I regretted selling the first one, I might have gotten it out of my system now that I had my fun with this one on track. I missed out on that with the first one.

Might be a dumb question but have you test driven an M2 yet? I always take for granted that people have and then am continually surprised when I find someone really agonizing about the decision and yet they have never driven one!

[akkando]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Great input. I appreciate it. Definitely sounds like the M2 would get rid of all the dislikes. I personally like the E46 looks better, but with the right mods and wheels the M2 could come very close.

My DD is a Mk6 GTI and I am familiar what a turbo engine feels like and have come to appreciate it. Torque is addicting and like I said, the e46 M3 only feels powerful enough when flogging it which the GTI never does (at almost half the hp). At the track there are a some occasions where teh M3 could use a bit more low end grunt, but for the most part it has enough power. It's mainly for street driving where it feels silly at times to have to wind it up to get it moving. I feel like a boy racer driving it on the street at times because of that.

I could afford to keep it and still get an M2, that isn't entirely the reason to get rid of it........... but try to convince the wife that I need 3 cars, when I convincing her that I needed 2 was already a challenge. Unless I get rid of the GTI, but then I am doomed to make the M2 a DD, which I don't want to do either.

FWIW, this is my second e46 M3, and while I regretted selling the first one, I might have gotten it out of my system now that I had my fun with this one on track. I missed out on that with the first one.

I thought you wanted to drive the M2 more, that was one reason to get it? Just make it your DD!

[silverado]

Don't you find that the available used M2's with low mileage are way overpriced? In many cases you can get a new one with the discounts that are now happening for a few thousand dollars more. To me, this says that the car is holding its value well (so far). Unclear whether the release of the Competition version would do to the current model. I happen to think (hope?) that the current model will always be a classic and therefore have good value retention.

[silverado]

Originally Posted by mbrunner

I think the car was too hyped personally. Most of the endless praise comes from car reviewers that don't actually own or will own the car. So for a snapshot in time which is a car review it is gods chariot.

Having owned the car for over a year and it being the first BMW I have actually owned I can understand being less than thrilled over the car and have even myself contemplated selling it for something else as it is just missing "something" compared to older BMW I have driven.

Now I am spoiled because everything I shop I have to compare to my Lotus and then realize nothing will come close to the "Feel" that car gives me. But I do feel with this current generation of BMW (M2 included) they have lost some part of their soul. Some models way more than others but something is missing for me so I get it.

With that said, I am sure most of the cars for sale are not due to issues or disappointment I think some of the reasons above make the most sense. People wanting the S55 model, situations changing, moving on to bigger/better things, that new car itch... There are a bunch on the market but it is not a huge sell off, supply has just caught up with demand.

The M235i was also the darling of reviewers, then came the M2 and they really loved it. I don't think either of the two cars were overhyped. Admittedly, I don't own an M2 yet, but I had an M235i for 3 years and it was a truly great car for what it is. Then I test drove the M2 and I can see how MUCH better the it is than the m235i. Also, to basically say that the reviewers may have gotten it wrong because they don't own the car is oversimplifying it. If ownership is required to have a valid opinion, then why would anyone ever listen to a reviewer? Of course one should use their judgement when weighing reviewers' opinions, but there are respectable ones that have enough experience to be able to fairly gauge long-term ownership.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Might be a dumb question but have you test driven an M2 yet? I always take for granted that people have and then am continually surprised when I find someone really agonizing about the decision and yet they have never driven one!

Actually I have not, because I live 35 miles from nearest dealer, and those are in Metro CA area, who never really have any M2's to test drive. I do know a friend of a friend who would let me drive his, just haven't gotten around to it, as he is also about 50 miles away. I would definitely do so before pulling the trigger.

Originally Posted by akkando

I thought you wanted to drive the M2 more, that was one reason to get it? Just make it your DD!

Yes I do, but I don't want it to be my DD, for various reasons. I've come to appreciate the fact that I can leave my nice car in the garage, and only use it when I feel like it. It stays a lot cleaner that way, when you don't have to use it for a couple of rainy days, or don't have to have the kids in it every time they need a ride. My kids are pretty "well trained" to my OCD, but even so, the seats and/or floor mats they occupy, are immediately dirtier than the drivers seat, despite me being in the car 10 times more often than them. It's nuts! You really have to have kids to appreciate that phenomenon.

Originally Posted by silverado

Don't you find that the available used M2's with low mileage are way overpriced? In many cases you can get a new one with the discounts that are now happening for a few thousand dollars more. To me, this says that the car is holding its value well (so far). Unclear whether the release of the Competition version would do to the current model. I happen to think (hope?) that it will the current model will always be a classic and therefore have good value retention.

Wishful thinking on many of the sellers. I've pointed that out in other threads. It's silly that someone would pay $52k for a 2016, when you can find new 2018's for just a couple of grand more.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Actually I have not, because I live 35 miles from nearest dealer, and those are in Metro CA area, who never really have any M2's to test drive. I do know a friend of a friend who would let me drive his, just haven't gotten around to it, as he is also about 50 miles away. I would definitely do so before pulling the trigger.

Got it. Definitely drive one and report back. Would be interested to hear your thoughts after you have some seat time!

[Motivate]

Originally Posted by MGM135is

Why am I starting to see used M2s with just a few thousand miles (like 4-6k) becoming available after just a year of ownership? Are people upgrading to something else? Is there something wrong with them? With all the praise heaped on the M2, I'm kind of surprised so many are available used. I am still looking for the right one so it might be an opportunity for me.

I think one of the reasons is that some people saw the mark ups new M2s were commanding during the first year and thought if they can buy one at MSRP, they can drive the heck out of it for 1 year and then resell it in the used market for little to no loss. I think many of them who never planned to keep the car for long are now racing to sell the car before the used value drops.

As far as going from a tuned 135i to a M2, I'm not sure if it's worth the money now considering the used prices are still somewhat high and you already have a C7 if I remember correctly. You aren't going to be wowed by the speed or performance of the M2 so to speak. So it's more of just paying to upgrade the 135i as a daily. Maybe it makes sense in another 6-12 months or so when the prices go down further.

[c1pher]

Yes I have the C7 too and the 135is is my daily. I was thinking I’d want something more flashy for daily driving lol.

[mbrunner]

Originally Posted by silverado

The M235i was also the darling of reviewers, then came the M2 and they really loved it. I don't think either of the two cars were overhyped. Admittedly, I don't own an M2 yet, but I had an M235i for 3 years and it was a truly great car for what it is. Then I test drove the M2 and I can see how MUCH better the it is than the m235i. Also, to basically say that the reviewers may have gotten it wrong because they don't own the car is oversimplifying it. If ownership is required to have a valid opinion, then why would anyone ever listen to a reviewer? Of course one should use their judgement when weighing reviewers' opinions, but there are respectable ones that have enough experience to be able to fairly gauge long-term ownership.

Yeah for the sake of not typing more I will just say part of the point I wanted to get across is that it was the flavor of the week, the bandwagon car everyone wants. To get the traffic/clicks/repeat views etc you are not going to find a lot of complaints out there from the usual reviewers. Even the ones I have followed for years that I tend to share opinion with lavished the M2 so was a bit surprised that is all. I fully admit too that it just might be me, where I am at with car ownership.

I don't think the M2 is that far above the M235i i test drove for a street driven car, in exterior looks? Yeah. But Interior is really exactly the same for all intent. Obviously there are areas where the M2 is better on paper and when you are 7/10+ but I don't think anyone is missing out that much if they got a m240i/m235i instead they are very comparable.

Anyway M2 is a great car, lots of reasons to keep it and enjoy it but it just is missing something for me so I can see why people would sell in short term.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by MGM135is

Why am I starting to see used M2s with just a few thousand miles (like 4-6k) becoming available after just a year of ownership? Are people upgrading to something else? Is there something wrong with them? With all the praise heaped on the M2, I'm kind of surprised so many are available used. I am still looking for the right one so it might be an opportunity for me.

All of the above . Itchy for next thing, dissatisfied owners etc. The car is great but you will still have dissatisfied owners no matter what. I know of several that went from 1M to M2 and are super happy. I know someone that sold 1M and bought M2 and is not happy. I sold 1M and was going to buy M2 but was unhappy about several things so I bought a used 1M again for more money than my first brand new 1M. I still keep tabs on M2 to see if they change what I don't like or if my 1M gets totaled.

The M2 is very cool but if you have a manual 135is which is very nice too.

If you like the M2 get one. If you're nervous. Drive one first and follow your gut.

[champignon]

You're not missing anything. The M2 is a car; buying one will do nothing for your labido, it will not improve the road quality in your area, and after the thrill of having a new car wears off, you will have a good car, that is fun to drive, but it is going to depreciate like most any other car, although if you are lucky at a slower pace. People who own them will get bored with them in just the same way that they get bored with any other car or possession. A thousand years ago when I used to collect mechanical wristwatches, it was common on the forums to see people buying and then reselling their watches after TWO MONTHS. At least with an M2, people will generally own them for a year or longer :-)

For a long time, M2 owners have been living in a bubble, thinking that they could get their cost of ownership down to just gas, maintenance, tires, insurance, and interest on their car loans. This is obviously just not realistic. Very few cars retain their value over time; the M2 is not going to be one of them.

I just took delivery of my M2 today; of course, buying a "nice" new car is a bit of a rush, not something I have been in the habit of doing in that most of my cars were bought used. This car was by far the most expensive car in absolute dollars that I have ever purchased. I say "nice" in the sense that yes, I have bought my share of new Subarus and Toyotas and VWs, but not nicer ones than that.

I guess my summary statement is that if any car changes your life, then there is probably something lacking in it to begin with. I wouldn't let the reality that these cars are going to end up on the resale market, and that their prices will go down as they get older, be any reason plus or minus towards buying the car.

[silverado]

Originally Posted by champignon

For a long time, M2 owners have been living in a bubble, thinking that they could get their cost of ownership down to just gas, maintenance, tires, insurance, and interest on their car loans. This is obviously just not realistic. Very few cars retain their value over time; the M2 is not going to be one of them.

If retain their value means literally keep their original value, then I'm sure the M2 won't do that; it would have had to be a very limited edition for that to happen. If retain their value means depreciate slowly, I think we don't know yet.

[qnet]

Originally Posted by champignon

You're not missing anything. The M2 is a car; buying one will do nothing for your labido, it will not improve the road quality in your area, and after the thrill of having a new car wears off, you will have a good car, that is fun to drive, but it is going to depreciate like most any other car, although if you are lucky at a slower pace. People who own them will get bored with them in just the same way that they get bored with any other car or possession. A thousand years ago when I used to collect mechanical wristwatches, it was common on the forums to see people buying and then reselling their watches after TWO MONTHS. At least with an M2, people will generally own them for a year or longer :-)

For a long time, M2 owners have been living in a bubble, thinking that they could get their cost of ownership down to just gas, maintenance, tires, insurance, and interest on their car loans. This is obviously just not realistic. Very few cars retain their value over time; the M2 is not going to be one of them.

I just took delivery of my M2 today; of course, buying a "nice" new car is a bit of a rush, not something I have been in the habit of doing in that most of my cars were bought used. This car was by far the most expensive car in absolute dollars that I have ever purchased. I say "nice" in the sense that yes, I have bought my share of new Subarus and Toyotas and VWs, but not nicer ones than that.

I guess my summary statement is that if any car changes your life, then there is probably something lacking in it to begin with. I wouldn't let the reality that these cars are going to end up on the resale market, and that their prices will go down as they get older, be any reason plus or minus towards buying the car.

I knew you were getting your car close to the same timeframe as me. How do you like it? This is the most I've spent on a car also. So far I really like it. From the beginning, I never cared about resale or depreciation. I had my E36 M3 for awhile, and will probably have this car for a while also. The E36 was bought used and I relaplaced a lot of stuff on it over the years, but I still really liked it.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by qnet

I knew you were getting your car close to the same timeframe as me. How do you like it? This is the most I've spent on a car also. So far I really like it. From the beginning, I never cared about resale or depreciation. I had my E36 M3 for awhile, and will probably have this car for a while also. The E36 was bought used and I relaplaced a lot of stuff on it over the years, but I still really liked it.

I just picked up the car today. I had forgotten what a shitshow it is to buy a new car, even if you pay cash (which I did). My last few new car purchases were at Subaru and VW dealers, where it is really easy to just laugh at the F&I guy when he tries to sell you the Scotchguard upholstery spray and the tire and wheel insurance, with horror stories about how you could be out TWO THOUSAND DOLLARs if you don't buy this or that worthless, pure profit add-on. BMW dealers are better at this sort of thing :-) By the time I got out of the dealership, all I had time to do was to run over to Costco and then return home. So the short answer is that I barely drove it, but it is obviously a very nice car. Ask me again in a few weeks :-) I'm not sure how much I'll drive it in the next 2 weeks. I live at altitude and the car has summer tires on it, so I may just leave it at my "business house in the big city," until I come back here in less than 2 weeks. It all depends on the weather the next couple of days.

[pruettfan]

I know and have known many people who like to buy the newest hot thing they see online or in the magazines as their second car and then a few months or a year later something else comes out and they trade for another. I have known one guy I chat with at cars and coffee is is on his 3rd car in 18 months. I think that has happened with some M2s, in some cases I am sure guys are planning to go with the S55 M2 and of course as mentioned above life happens so while many probably intended to keep their M2 long term circumstances resulted in a change. I don't think there is anything wrong with the M2, I love mine but I am sure there are some who got theirs and it wasn't quite the right fit. I have mine and I am keeping it so I don't care much how many are available on lots, it is still a quite rare car for a regular production model.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by MGM135is

Why am I starting to see used M2s with just a few thousand miles (like 4-6k) becoming available after just a year of ownership? Are people upgrading to something else? Is there something wrong with them? With all the praise heaped on the M2, I'm kind of surprised so many are available used. I am still looking for the right one so it might be an opportunity for me.

No shortage of speculative theories here.

Most are former Perf. Center/M Driving Experience fleet units. Another decent percentage are ex-Corp Management/Dealer Employee short term lease cars.

[qnet]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

I know and have known many people who like to buy the newest hot thing they see online or in the magazines as their second car and then a few months or a year later something else comes out and they trade for another. I have known one guy I chat with at cars and coffee is is on his 3rd car in 18 months. I think that has happened with some M2s, in some cases I am sure guys are planning to go with the S55 M2 and of course as mentioned above life happens so while many probably intended to keep their M2 long term circumstances resulted in a change. I don't think there is anything wrong with the M2, I love mine but I am sure there are some who got theirs and it wasn't quite the right fit. I have mine and I am keeping it so I don't care much how many are available on lots, it is still a quite rare car for a regular production model.

I can't judge buyers who have done this, because I've basically done it myself.The issue with me is I kept coming back to this forum and watching M2 videos. I would initially watch videos on the car I had, then slowly work my way back to the M2. My friend believes I will do the same thing in the next couple of years, but I know I won't this time.