[F87_LCI]

Probably just a "habit" thing like most have said. I just have never downshifted into 1st...had some cars that even with heel toe rev match...the car just didn't like to do it. I suppose with newer tech it should work smoother. Maybe I'll try it...but habits are tough to break. I still manually rev match (blip the throttle) on some of my downshifts...forgetting that the car is going to do it for me.

[gandapanda]

Revmatch will make the shift smooth but will do nothing to save wear on the synchrnos. Spinning the motor with the clutch depressed doesn't speed up the input shaft.

I do this sometimes, like in a parking garage when descending floors. Push the clutch, take it out of 2nd or 3rd or whatever, release the clutch, hit the gas, push the clutch, put it in first, then disengage - all within a matter of 2-3s. The Fast & Furious crowd surely follows this approach, along with not granny shifting.

S

[Potatohead-M2]

Originally Posted by ToucanLife

Modern syncros can handle a downshift to first without issue - the M box will have no issues popping into first at 5-10mph with a proper rev match, not 1995 anymore. Just don’t force it in or do it much above 3500rpm into first or the delta will be too high.

Source - have rebuilt 2 f80 boxes first hand.

I think I know why those two transmissions needed to be rebuilt.

[ChrisK]

This thread scares me....no wonder auto makers want to kill off the MT.

[Ian ///M]

90’s logic applied to 2018 vehicles scares me even more

[stefan]

Originally Posted by e92ben

Questions like this make me never want to buy second hand M cars lol

Took the words right out of my mouth. That and ignoring break in procedure.

[Bt12]

First time I downshifted to 1st by accident on my s2000 . I learned how to drift the car lol. Of course I think I was on 3rd coming in hot

[stefan]

Originally Posted by sh_kross

Very interesting topic. It would be great if there was a better reference for these type of information when approaching the task of learning to drive a manual transmission. It's rather disappointing that it seems that the only way to learn to drive one properly is to be taught by someone else or do a LOT of searching and watching videos. I wish there was a common place to look up reliable information for driving manual or even auto for that matter.

Everyone is bad at first. But you need to learn on a beater without a lot of torque. The car you learn on will get beat to shit.

[sh_kross]

Originally Posted by stefan

Everyone is bad at first. But you need to learn on a beater without a lot of torque. The car you learn on will get beat to shit.

I don't think it's a complicated enough process that the car you learn on will be wasted by the time you're good at it... I had my first lesson on a Fiat 124 while on a test drive... After that I only had a couple of practices on an older Mustang before driving my current daily driver, the M2. I don't feel an expert by any means, but I just wish there was a better way to learn and get started.

[eatingpizzainthef87rules]

Originally Posted by Potatohead-M2

I think I know why those two transmissions needed to be rebuilt.

First gear and all syncros were perfect - we were experimenting with different gear ratios for 2/3 and modified shift forks - again these transmissions are not Hondas from 1995.

[D CHOI]

I spoke with the BMW shop foreman briefly but I don't remember all the exact details but he told me the transmission will not be damaged and the syncros we have are not single but multi syncros that are very well engineered. But he mentions something about putting into 1st when car is moving on neutral would be bad or something like that...but at the end he said I shouldn't worry.

[M3 Alex]

Originally Posted by stefan

Took the words right out of my mouth. That and ignoring break in procedure.

BMW's break-in procedure is ridiculous. Apples and oranges to not knowing how to drive stick.

Originally Posted by stefan

Everyone is bad at first. But you need to learn on a beater without a lot of torque. The car you learn on will get beat to shit.

Untrue. More torque will make learning easier, as you'll be stalling a lot less. How does the car you learn on get "beat to shit"? It takes like 1 hour to learn to drive stick. Just go get a few laps in a parking lot and then try starting from a stop while facing up a hill for 30 minutes and you're golden. Stop scaring people...

[stefan]

Originally Posted by M2 Alex

BMW's break-in procedure is ridiculous. Apples and oranges to not knowing how to drive stick.

Untrue. More torque will make learning easier, as you'll be stalling a lot less. How does the car you learn on get "beat to shit"? It takes like 1 hour to learn to drive stick. Just go get a few laps in a parking lot and then try starting from a stop while facing up a hill for 30 minutes and you're golden. Stop scaring people...

Oh sorry didn't realize I was in the presence of a driving god. 30min everyone my mistake.

[pruettfan]

Originally Posted by D CHOI

I spoke with the BMW shop foreman briefly but I don't remember all the exact details but he told me the transmission will not be damaged and the syncros we have are not single but multi syncros that are very well engineered. But he mentions something about putting into 1st when car is moving on neutral would be bad or something like that...but at the end he said I shouldn't worry.

Not sure I would go on his word frankly, doubt you will find many if any competent manual transmission drivers that would suggest downshifting into 1st is a good idea. Its always funny when someone posts a question, a bunch of reasonable people suggest they do something other than what they do and then they post that they are going to do it anyway. Heck its your car so you can do what you want but its not advisable especially if your goal is just to get sound. Better to buy a catted downpipe and a VF tune, that way you get performance and sound. The downpipe alone will likely get you a desirable result.

[eatingpizzainthef87rules]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Not sure I would go on his word frankly, doubt you will find many if any competent manual transmission drivers that would suggest downshifting into 1st is a good idea.

What does driving manual for a long period of time have to do with the education level of the F80 manual box mechanical design and whether downshifting to first will affect it's longevity or not.

I find it hilarious when people make these correlations that make 0 sense at all with 0 education on the topic other than experience pushing a stick in a car.

[F87source]

Ok I was actually messaged asking for advice about this topic a couple of times and I wanted to ask a few questions since I am genuinely curious and also wanted to properly explain this topic because there is alot of misinformation about it:

1) 1st gear and its gate, synchromesh etc is the same as all the other gears, there are no mechanical lockouts or anything to prevent you from down shifting into first. The only difference is the amount of teeth on the input side vs. the output shaft (first gear has the fewest teeth on the input and the most on the output shafts). Also when people say first is engineered only for starts and implying it is weaker than all other gears that is untrue. If that was the case launching it in first or using the full rpm band in first would destroy it.

2) The reason why it is difficult to down shift into first gear while moving is because it places alot of stress on the fist gear synchromesh to match the shaft speeds due to the large first gear ratio of our transmissions.

If I am not mistaken 1st gear is 4.110, and 2nd is 2.315.


3) and a few more additional tid bits of information, the manual gear box in the m2 is a modern style sychromesh gear box so double clutching is not a requirement, and the phrase "not double clutching like you're supposed to..." does not apply to this gear box - it is an old antiquated phrase for non synchromesed gear boxes from older cars. But there is still a use case for this technique which will be elaborated later on.




So I have been asked about this alot privately on IG - and I don't blame people because the forum isn't a nice place to ask questions at times due to the bashing that goes on.


So is it safe to down shift to first?

Yes and no. So if you are talking about cruising around in second and you want to drop into 1st to increase the rpm and get into a better spot in the power band like you would do from 4th to 3rd for example, then this is a really bad idea and habit. With the gear ratio of 2nd to first being nearly 2x, you are increasing the rpm almost 2X and putting a huge load on the first gear synchromesh to match shaft speeds causing excessive wear. You will feel that first gear will not even want to engage at high rpms or speeds because of the load it must do to match the shaft speeds - however if you wanted to you could force it in. But like I said before this circumstance should be avoided at all costs as it is extremely bad for your synchros - not your gear itself but your synchros.


Now when is this situation safe or acceptable? At extremely low rpms in second gear or during extremely low speeds of <10 km/hr when you need to get going again - in the situation of slowing down for a red light that suddenly turns green and you do not want to lug the engine slipping the clutch in second. Or you are pulling into a parking tight parking lot where continual slipping of the clutch and lugging the engine in second is not feasible. At this point you may want to shift into first, at this point the rpm increase from going into first from second is quite small, generally you will be at ~600rpm and down shfting into first will cause the rpms to jump to ~1100 rpm. This increase is around 500 rpm compared to at high speeds (2000 rpm in second will be almost 4000 rpm in 1st) where the rpm delta is in the thousands of rpm range and increases with rpm. So what you notice is at low rpms shifting from second into first gear doesn't have a lock out and will shift into it will very little effort due to the low rpm delta putting very little load on the synchros (load increases with rpm in this case). So it is safe to slot into first gear at this situation, and wear on the synchromesh will not be any greater than going from 4th to 3rd for instance.



Now what can you do to even further improve the safety of shifting into 1st gear? Double clutching it's not needed on any other down shift since the gear ratio difference is not as drastic but downshifting from second to first this technique can really aid your synchros. This technique was used with non synchromeshed manual gear boxes to match shaft speeds. So when you use this technique it eliminates the need for the first gear synchro to match shaft speeds as you are doing it manually and thus eliminates any concern of excessive wear on the first gear's synchro. What you do is shift from second into neutral, release the clutch, blip the throttle, and clutch in and shift into first. This technique should remove the lockout even at high rpm downshifts shifts into first gear and is used by alot of high gear ratio auto X guys who rely on first and second gears alot. This technique is not required at low speed low rpm scenarios going into first because the load is so small, but you can do it anyways to relieve some strain on your first gear synchro.

So this is what you can do to aid downshifting into first if you need to, although it is not recommended to do so at high rpms or speed (make sure your rpms aren't so high you money shift) unless you are racing in tight auto x circuits. It is more so to help aide those that are going so slow they need to shift into first to avoid stalling or lugging/excessively slipping second gear.





So no my question for you guys is: who shifts into first when going into tight low speed parking lots? Or do you guys just lug/slip second gear?


I myself shift into first frequently when going from a main road and up an incline into a parking lot. Second gear would require alot of slipping and lugging so I never use it as the strain on the throw out bearing and engine would not be great. In this scenario my speed is always below 10 km/hr since it is a 90 degree turn onto a pretty steep hill, and I will generally double clutch to help out first gear's synchro despite not needing to.







Anyways take my advice with caution, I will not be responsible for damages caused to your car or injuries caused to yourself or others. - Had to throw this in there for anyone who wants to shift into first for the sound and messes up.

[F87source]

I should also mention that rev matching is required but that should already be common knowledge.


And another but of info: the large the rpm delta the more the synchros will have the speed up the transmission shaft to match rpms, and this speed up happens very quickly hence alot of inertia to overcome. So the larger the rpm the larger the torque on the synchros thus the larger the load and more strain hence the lockout and high rpms. So when you do it at very low rpms and low speeds the stress on the first gear synchro is alot lower and equal to what other synchros would experience. Hence it's safe to do so because first gear is not special in anyway to the other gears.

[kyrix1st]

Depends. I do it all the time on gymkhana runs, but rarely on street.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Does all this apply to manual mode in dct too?

[ioftendrive]

No point

[Ashander]

Originally Posted by F87source

Ok I was actually messaged asking for advice about this topic a couple of times and I wanted to ask a few questions since I am genuinely curious and also wanted to properly explain this topic because there is alot of misinformation about it:

1) 1st gear and its gate, synchromesh etc is the same as all the other gears, there are no mechanical lockouts or anything to prevent you from down shifting into first. The only difference is the amount of teeth on the input side vs. the output shaft (first gear has the fewest teeth on the input and the most on the output shafts). Also when people say first is engineered only for starts and implying it is weaker than all other gears that is untrue. If that was the case launching it in first or using the full rpm band in first would destroy it.

2) The reason why it is difficult to down shift into first gear while moving is because it places alot of stress on the fist gear synchromesh to match the shaft speeds due to the large first gear ratio of our transmissions.

If I am not mistaken 1st gear is 4.110, and 2nd is 2.315.


3) and a few more additional tid bits of information, the manual gear box in the m2 is a modern style sychromesh gear box so double clutching is not a requirement, and the phrase "not double clutching like you're supposed to..." does not apply to this gear box - it is an old antiquated phrase for non synchromesed gear boxes from older cars. But there is still a use case for this technique which will be elaborated later on.




So I have been asked about this alot privately on IG - and I don't blame people because the forum isn't a nice place to ask questions at times due to the bashing that goes on.


So is it safe to down shift to first?

Yes and no. So if you are talking about cruising around in second and you want to drop into 1st to increase the rpm and get into a better spot in the power band like you would do from 4th to 3rd for example, then this is a really bad idea and habit. With the gear ratio of 2nd to first being nearly 2x, you are increasing the rpm almost 2X and putting a huge load on the first gear synchromesh to match shaft speeds causing excessive wear. You will feel that first gear will not even want to engage at high rpms or speeds because of the load it must do to match the shaft speeds - however if you wanted to you could force it in. But like I said before this circumstance should be avoided at all costs as it is extremely bad for your synchros - not your gear itself but your synchros.


Now when is this situation safe or acceptable? At extremely low rpms in second gear or during extremely low speeds of <10 km/hr when you need to get going again - in the situation of slowing down for a red light that suddenly turns green and you do not want to lug the engine slipping the clutch in second. Or you are pulling into a parking tight parking lot where continual slipping of the clutch and lugging the engine in second is not feasible. At this point you may want to shift into first, at this point the rpm increase from going into first from second is quite small, generally you will be at ~600rpm and down shfting into first will cause the rpms to jump to ~1100 rpm. This increase is around 500 rpm compared to at high speeds (2000 rpm in second will be almost 4000 rpm in 1st) where the rpm delta is in the thousands of rpm range and increases with rpm. So what you notice is at low rpms shifting from second into first gear doesn't have a lock out and will shift into it will very little effort due to the low rpm delta putting very little load on the synchros (load increases with rpm in this case). So it is safe to slot into first gear at this situation, and wear on the synchromesh will not be any greater than going from 4th to 3rd for instance.



Now what can you do to even further improve the safety of shifting into 1st gear? Double clutching it's not needed on any other down shift since the gear ratio difference is not as drastic but downshifting from second to first this technique can really aid your synchros. This technique was used with non synchromeshed manual gear boxes to match shaft speeds. So when you use this technique it eliminates the need for the first gear synchro to match shaft speeds as you are doing it manually and thus eliminates any concern of excessive wear on the first gear's synchro. What you do is shift from second into neutral, release the clutch, blip the throttle, and clutch in and shift into first. This technique should remove the lockout even at high rpm downshifts shifts into first gear and is used by alot of high gear ratio auto X guys who rely on first and second gears alot. This technique is not required at low speed low rpm scenarios going into first because the load is so small, but you can do it anyways to relieve some strain on your first gear synchro.

So this is what you can do to aid downshifting into first if you need to, although it is not recommended to do so at high rpms or speed (make sure your rpms aren't so high you money shift) unless you are racing in tight auto x circuits. It is more so to help aide those that are going so slow they need to shift into first to avoid stalling or lugging/excessively slipping second gear.





So no my question for you guys is: who shifts into first when going into tight low speed parking lots? Or do you guys just lug/slip second gear?


I myself shift into first frequently when going from a main road and up an incline into a parking lot. Second gear would require alot of slipping and lugging so I never use it as the strain on the throw out bearing and engine would not be great. In this scenario my speed is always below 10 km/hr since it is a 90 degree turn onto a pretty steep hill, and I will generally double clutch to help out first gear's synchro despite not needing to.







Anyways take my advice with caution, I will not be responsible for damages caused to your car or injuries caused to yourself or others. - Had to throw this in there for anyone who wants to shift into first for the sound and messes up.

If you're in bumper to bumper traffic is it safe to stay in 2nd and not lug the engine? Or is downshifting to 1st acceptable in this scenario?

[swampfox94]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

Does all this apply to manual mode in dct too?

Also would like to know this- I love down shifting all the way to first when coming to a stop like a child lol