[M2Nebula]

I was driving our 2013 X1 today and it felt good to be steering the old fashioned way. As much as I like the M2, the steering just doesn't feel as connected, even though it is precise and of course adjustable depending on driving mode. I have heard that no EPS system currently available can match the feel of a hydraulic system. Is this true and if so will there be some point where it does match the feel, or are those days gone?

[GimmeanM]

I don't think it's EPS by nature that is to blame, but how it is programmed or configured that causes this. The nearly 20 year old Honda S2000 has EPS and feels better than many hydraulic racks, so it can be done right.

[Cavpilot2k]

I really wish BMW would have gone the electric-powered hydraulic route. Same emissions/power/relieving parasitic drag benefit plus classic steering feel.
I think BMW really dropped the ball here in an effort to appeal more to the masses than the enthusiast.

[ZPrime]

A lot of the programming is because people don't want to feel too much, it makes them think something is wrong with the car. Blame BMW for trying to capture more marketshare, which they are doing by "softening" their cars.

[DoggieHowser]

I was thinking this the other day - on some of the best force feedback wheels on computer gaming (think the Fanatec Clubsport Wheelbase v2.5 or the direct drive ones), most games can now utilise the motor feedback on them to really really recreate the feel of the road, right down to when the car loses traction.. it wouldn't be that difficult to recreate that with an electric power steering system.

I remember one Formula driver said he was amazed at how well the Fanatec even simulated his non-power assisted steering on his real car.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

A lot of the programming is because people don't want to feel too much, it makes them think something is wrong with the car. Blame BMW for trying to capture more marketshare, which they are doing by "softening" their cars.

Yeah, I drive a modified 135, which has a pretty decent steering setup, but I was shocked when I heard someone say they thought it it required too much effort and strength to steer, especially in a parking lot. Really? And this was a grown man, not some 16 year-old girl.

If a sporty hydraulic steering rack requires too much muscle for you to operate, you might need to turn in your man card.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by DoggieHowser

I was thinking this the other day - on some of the best force feedback wheels on computer gaming (think the Fanatec Clubsport Wheelbase v2.5 or the direct drive ones), most games can now utilise the motor feedback on them to really really recreate the feel of the road, right down to when the car loses traction.. it wouldn't be that difficult to recreate that with an electric power steering system.

I remember one Formula driver said he was amazed at how well the Fanatec even simulated his non-power assisted steering on his real car.

I don't know - to me a simulated steering feedback sounds as bad as simulated engine/exhaust sound piped in through the speakers. Heresy. But don't get me started on artificial exhaust sound...

[gmzanatta]

Every time I drive my Z4MC after driving the M2, I'm reminded of just how f'ng amazing the hydraulic steering on that car is.

[blefevre]

I remember when I test drove a NSX with a factory manual rack. I almost bought that car on steering feel alone. That put hydraulic racks to shame.

Honestly though, the M2 rack isn't that bad compared to the rest of the industry offerings in this price point. Yes, the feel is muted, but it's all relative. I treat it as one of those "moving on" aspects of cars. You just have to accept it that modern cars have a different feel.

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

Yeah, I drive a modified 135, which has a pretty decent steering setup, but I was shocked when I heard someone say they thought it it required too much effort and strength to steer, especially in a parking lot. Really? And this was a grown man, not some 16 year-old girl.

If a sporty hydraulic steering rack requires too much muscle for you to operate, you might need to turn in your man card.

Funny thing is that the X1 is my wife's vehicle and she loves the steering, as well as the whole car in general. The effort is way reduced if you keep the thing rolling even just a little bit, as it should be.

[ClothSeats]

BMW consciously removes the steering feel due to complaints from their customers. Even the E90 was moving in this direction. If you drive an E36 M3 or M coupe you will be amazed.

[bobert]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

BMW consciously removes the steering feel due to complaints from their customers. Even the E90 was moving in this direction. If you drive an E36 M3 or M coupe you will be amazed.

I've read that before too - that BMW claims they've muted the steering 'feel' on purpose due to complaints - I'd love to see the alleged complaints they're referring to, as I noticed significant movement on the BS Detector.

Or maybe BMW just can't tune an EPS rack as well as Porsche?

It's been eons since I drove an E46 (never drove an E36), so I can't compare it to the E90, but the difference from E90 to F30 was stunning (in a bad way).

[ryem3]

Correct, we're not going back.
The electric steering sucks, particularly on the highway. Probably wouldn't notice it as much on a racetrack. Keeping the car going in a straight line is now a major pain in the ass.

[aerobat]

Originally Posted by ryem3

Correct, we're not going back.
The electric steering sucks, particularly on the highway. Probably wouldn't notice it as much on a racetrack. Keeping the car going in a straight line is now a major pain in the ass.

Are you serious? What do you compare with?

[ajvdh]

Originally Posted by ryem3

Correct, we're not going back.
The electric steering sucks, particularly on the highway. Probably wouldn't notice it as much on a racetrack. Keeping the car going in a straight line is now a major pain in the ass.

Exactly backwards, IMO. On a track or autocrossing is where I notice that it's harder to get right up to that point where the front end is going to wash out. My E36, by contrast, makes that point much easier to find. The complete lack of rubber bits in the suspension don't hurt none, I reckon.

My only issues ever with highway driving, is that it does like to tramline when I'm on roads which have gotten rutted by heavy truck traffic, but it's no worse than any other car with relatively wide performance tires.

The M2 could be better, but it's a step up from my 228.

[ryem3]

Originally Posted by aerobat

Are you serious? What do you compare with?

Even my 2013 GTI. Besides response in the highway, on long sweeping turns, the wheel doesn't naturally attempt move to neutral, it seems somewhat stuck at an angle. I've had three hydraulic steering Porsches and the steering is absolutely no comparison, but it really is no contest.

[DoggieHowser]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

I don't know - to me a simulated steering feedback sounds as bad as simulated engine/exhaust sound piped in through the speakers. Heresy. But don't get me started on artificial exhaust sound...

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against hydraulic steering. I'm merely saying that if we have to live with electric steering - it doesn't have to be as numb as it is now. The use of force feedback wheels is to show that programmers and mechanical engineers who design those pro and semi pro simulation steering wheels have found ways of simulating real world feedback into what is fundamentally a direct drive motor or belt driven motor. Enough that even pro drivers say they are incredibly close to the real cars that they drive.

[gtaM2]

so regarding steering feedback there is no way this can be reprogrammed right? when im taking a bend at 90KPH i want that same tightness when going 30KPH.. somebody hack the EPS

[ChrisK]

You guys are killing me

I'm more worried about losing my BMW gasoline engine then the hydraulic steering

[termigni]

Originally Posted by GimmeanM

I don't think it's EPS by nature that is to blame, but how it is programmed or configured that causes this. The nearly 20 year old Honda S2000 has EPS and feels better than many hydraulic racks, so it can be done right.

yes but S2000 is still not all that great with steering wheel feedback. very numb compared to E92 or E46 M3 if you ask me.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

You guys are killing me

I'm more worried about losing my BMW gasoline engine then the hydraulic steering

I'd worry about both.
This is going to sound like a conspiracy theory, but it really isn't.
I am 100% certain that the non-voluntary addition of Active Sound in BMW cars (really shameful the BMW doesn't allow you the option to turn it off - almost makes me not want to continue buying BMWs) is to get us used to artificial engine sound, so that when manufacturers switch to all electric motors, they can have fake engine and exhaust sound programmed to soften the blow and make us feel like we still have ICEs.
Once we get used to piped in fake engine sound, they can take away the real engines, and we will be so accustomed to fake sound, we won't complain, because we will still have sporty car sounds.
Incremental changes are hardly noticeable.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

I'd worry about both.
This is going to sound like a conspiracy theory, but it really isn't.
I am 100% certain that the non-voluntary addition of Active Sound in BMW cars (really shameful the BMW doesn't allow you the option to turn it off - almost makes me not want to continue buying BMWs) is to get us used to artificial engine sound, so that when manufacturers switch to all electric motors, they can have fake engine and exhaust sound programmed to soften the blow and make us feel like we still have ICEs.
Once we get used to piped in fake engine sound, they can take away the real engines, and we will be so accustomed to fake sound, we won't complain, because we will still have sporty car sounds.
Incremental changes are hardly noticeable.

No ASD on my car!