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      04-24-2017, 08:32 PM   #89
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You might consider adding a country or continent marker if that is possible.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...php?p=19882965
Also, take a look at this thread. Wow. 36% under 31, 60% under 38, and only 15% over 51. The age skews much younger than I thought. Once again, wondering if this is representative. You might want to think about modifying your age brackets after looking at this.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=973344
This thread shows 2/3 of M3/4 owners under 40 and nearly 1/3 under 30. I don't think I'm buying either survey as representative.

And this from Bloomberg: "The average Lexus buyer is 61, compared with 54 for Mercedes and 49 for BMW."
I think a lot of the older generations are not keen on being on car forums online and casting votes hence the sampling on this forum will skew towards the younger generation.

What we need to do is have a poll initially to accept age and then have equal numbers of voters from each age interval to cast their votes.

This way we will have a somewhat uniform distribution.
I think it's great that you guys are trying to compile data to create a clearer picture. However to me it's already clear. MT's are desired by what is likely a very statistically significant group. BMW is playing with fire if they even consider eliminating it. I predict consumers will spank them for it and I'll be first in line. Are you listening in Munich?
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      04-24-2017, 08:33 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
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Originally Posted by STK View Post
You might consider adding a country or continent marker if that is possible.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...php?p=19882965
Also, take a look at this thread. Wow. 36% under 31, 60% under 38, and only 15% over 51. The age skews much younger than I thought. Once again, wondering if this is representative. You might want to think about modifying your age brackets after looking at this.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=973344
This thread shows 2/3 of M3/4 owners under 40 and nearly 1/3 under 30. I don't think I'm buying either survey as representative.

And this from Bloomberg: "The average Lexus buyer is 61, compared with 54 for Mercedes and 49 for BMW."
I think a lot of the older generations are not keen on being on car forums online and casting votes hence the sampling on this forum will skew towards the younger generation.

What we need to do is have a poll initially to accept age and then have equal numbers of voters from each age interval to cast their votes.

This way we will have a somewhat uniform distribution.
We be rockin' the stratified sample, dude

But it's still self-selected through this forum

But it's all good because we'll learn a little more about each other. And I hope they'll keep making both.

One other thought. Since the cars have gotten so much bigger, the current M5 was like an old 7 series, the M3 is like an old M5, and the M2 like an old M3 (except for the weight.). So keeping the stick in the 2,3, and 4 would sorta kinda be what they've been doing all along. Here's hoping anyway. Ultimately it comes down to what sells.
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      04-24-2017, 08:38 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
I think a lot of the older generations are not keen on being on car forums online and casting votes hence the sampling on this forum will skew towards the younger generation.

What we need to do is have a poll initially to accept age and then have equal numbers of voters from each age interval to cast their votes.

This way we will have a somewhat uniform distribution.
There was already an M2 age poll.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1258434
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      04-24-2017, 08:43 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
I think a lot of the older generations are not keen on being on car forums online and casting votes hence the sampling on this forum will skew towards the younger generation.

What we need to do is have a poll initially to accept age and then have equal numbers of voters from each age interval to cast their votes.

This way we will have a somewhat uniform distribution.
There was already an M2 age poll.Who even knows if people are truthfully when they vote in these polls.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1258434
This adds the type of trans and maybe the location. But it ain't random and people might not be telling the truth. Take it for what it is. I'm looking forward to the the aggregate numbers based on the VINs. Unfortunately that doesn't have the age. Maybe someone at BMW is watching and will chime in. They certainly have an idea.
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      04-24-2017, 09:21 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
I think it's great that you guys are trying to compile data to create a clearer picture. However to me it's already clear. MT's are desired by what is likely a very statistically significant group. BMW is playing with fire if they even consider eliminating it. I predict consumers will spank them for it and I'll be first in line. Are you listening in Munich?
Damn it. I thought I'll be first in line.
But seriously, there will be a lot of pissed off people. I kind of agree with STK that the M2 is really the new M3 so BMW would be wise to leave the manual in it but we've seen stranger things so never know what's going to happen. The sad thing is that the new Cayman S is now a 4 cylinder so we'll probably have to start buying used cars to get good manual transmission cars. There are plenty of options still so we should be fine.

Also, if there is a younger demographic that wants a manual transmission, BMW should cater to it maybe more than the older demographic. The reasoning being that the younger generation will buy more cars than the older generation in the long run. Losing them now might mean losing all the cars that they might have bought from the time they were 20 something till 60 something or even more. Averaging even 1 car every 5 years would still mean 9 cars total between 20 and 60.

Are you listening in Munich ??
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      04-24-2017, 09:23 PM   #94
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This adds the type of trans and maybe the location. But it ain't random and people might not be telling the truth. Take it for what it is. I'm looking forward to the the aggregate numbers based on the VINs. Unfortunately that doesn't have the age. Maybe someone at BMW is watching and will chime in. They certainly have an idea.
BMW has ages based on drivers license information. So if they really wanted to they could determine how many younger drivers order a manual. The younger the demographic the better I suppose.
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      04-24-2017, 09:52 PM   #95
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This adds the type of trans and maybe the location. But it ain't random and people might not be telling the truth. Take it for what it is. I'm looking forward to the the aggregate numbers based on the VINs. Unfortunately that doesn't have the age. Maybe someone at BMW is watching and will chime in. They certainly have an idea.
It will definitely be interesting seeing how many manuals have been built based on the VINs.If it is about 20 percent manual for the M2,then BMW will keep offering a manual transmission for the next generation M2.I still think there are a bunch of people at BMW that want to keep manuals available in future new BMW models.
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      04-24-2017, 10:06 PM   #96
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This adds the type of trans and maybe the location. But it ain't random and people might not be telling the truth. Take it for what it is. I'm looking forward to the the aggregate numbers based on the VINs. Unfortunately that doesn't have the age. Maybe someone at BMW is watching and will chime in. They certainly have an idea.
BMW has ages based on drivers license information. So if they really wanted to they could determine how many younger drivers order a manual. The younger the demographic the better I suppose.
Exactly!

I'll bet BMW is well aware of the market wishes and knows that even if made in DTC only and based on the production number they won't have any problems selling all of them. As someone else said here earlier was if BMW did throw us the manual option, it's only just a gift for us enthusiasts specifically. One point that I think is valid is the fact that this may be the last generation of 'gasoline only' M cars.
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      04-24-2017, 10:19 PM   #97
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One point that I think is valid is the fact that this may be the last generation of 'gasoline only' M cars.
Oh, gawd - I teared up a little bit when I read that!
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      04-24-2017, 11:10 PM   #98
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One point that I think is valid is the fact that this may be the last generation of 'gasoline only' M cars.
Not just that. It could also be the first and only generation of M2 with 6 cylinders lined up in a single file. We would all probably be going into a 4 cylinder configuration fairly soon with stricter and stricter emission norms. I am sure that the M2 will probably get the 4 cylinder engines first among the M cars and not the M3/M4.

The Cayman S has gone 4 cylinders already. The CLA AMG has been 4 cylinders for a while and the Audi... Well nobody cares about the VW anyways.
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      04-24-2017, 11:19 PM   #99
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GimmeanM View Post
One point that I think is valid is the fact that this may be the last generation of 'gasoline only' M cars.
Not just that. It could also be the first and only generation of M2 with 6 cylinders lined up in a single file. We would all probably be going into a 4 cylinder configuration fairly soon with stricter and stricter emission norms. I am sure that the M2 will probably get the 4 cylinder engines first among the M cars and not the M3/M4.

The Cayman S has gone 4 cylinders already. The CLA AMG has been 4 cylinders for a while and the Audi... Well nobody cares about the VW anyways.
So true! I really think the Sports Car is going to be changing pretty significantly in the near future. That's why even though I'd still prefer a manual, I'll probably still buy the M2CS if it's DCT only.
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      04-25-2017, 04:02 AM   #100
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Not just that. It could also be the first and only generation of M2 with 6 cylinders lined up in a single file. We would all probably be going into a 4 cylinder configuration fairly soon with stricter and stricter emission norms. I am sure that the M2 will probably get the 4 cylinder engines first among the M cars and not the M3/M4.

The Cayman S has gone 4 cylinders already. The CLA AMG has been 4 cylinders for a while and the Audi... Well nobody cares about the VW anyways.
Not only is this M2 generation the last first, only and last with 6 cylinders. It's also the last with RWD. Next generation will be based on the FWD platform of the new X1. The M2 will have xDrive though. And probably some electric wizardry to improve performance further. It will be fast as hell. But will it be special to drive? Perhaps...
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      04-25-2017, 08:01 AM   #101
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Ha so true! I have an 04 A6 2.7TT with 6 spd manual my DD ....207K...OEM bone stock btw.. just blew a.turbo . and I am sinking 5K into replacing the blown turbos... and suspension maintenance. ONLY reason is the manual transmission!
I dumped 18K on my RS6 last year (15k for engine pull for oil leak, did new turbos at that time) then 3k more for cam tensioners. Now getting new summer tires. Old cars get REALLY expensive.

But you can keep an old manual Mcar for a long time and if you want updates there are always new stereos systems, some one always has a more powerful engine setup - new turbo - etc.....

If there is a market for manuals someone will make them.

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      04-25-2017, 11:35 PM   #102
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I'm not saying it's millennials but...
It's not millenials. It's mom and dad who grew up driving automatics and don't actually know how to drive stick. They aren't passing those skills down. The idea of driving being fun and car culture is also not being passed down. It's not milennial's fault they just don't know much else.

I was lucky enough to get my hands on an old shitbox to learn on. Having to learn on a test drive, on the other hand, is probably pretty daunting.

I suspect this (the fear of the unknown, lack of training) has MUCH more to do with the pickup in autos than the lap time improvements they bring.
Car culture is dying. It's very difficult to work on a contemporary car certainly relative to back in the day. (Today it is useful to code.). The number of people racing in my area is way down. Kids think of cars as an appliance. Traffic sucks and is getting worse. High priced cars are sold on amenities and luxuries and performance is reduced to 0-60 times and how much horsepower. The BMW genius sent with me on a test drive knew everything about the electronics and little about the engine/trans other than 0-60 times. This is the current reality and it's going to continue.

As for the MT, it's a great anachronism. Nothing wrong with that. But so is writing script or drafting on legal pads. So is sewing and buying patterns to make clothes. So is exclusively using hand tools for woodworking. And on and on. There are still people that do these things and get tremendous personal satisfaction. But everyone else has moved on. The niche is getting smaller and smaller.

It would be very interesting to have a breakout of the percentages of MT vs DCT by age of driver. We already know that the US has a much higher percentage of MTs than Europe. I wonder if the percentage of MTs in the US skews older. I would bet it does.

It also remains to be seen whether the MT will sell at a premium in the future. The premiums for some manuals are because the alternative was a terrible slush box. Think the 635csi. Today, the alternative might be a DCT which may also become rare as everything moves to ZF 8-speeds. Who knows, there might be a premium for DCTs from all the folks that wanted the old school paddle shifters like the F1 guys used but that were phased out...
Agree completely although I wouldn't equate a manual to something as archaic as hand tools for wood working. What's interesting to me is the turn around in Europe. When I was a kid going to Europe most summers every car, truck and bus for that matter was manual. You couldn't find an automatic transmission anywhere even if you tried. I was fascinated by the capability of drivers not only driving manuals but negotiating small and often winding roads. They were masters that I wanted to emulate. Contrast that to what I saw at home which was mainly big American boats with automatics driving on roads so big and straight steering input was barely required. And when it was it could be achieved with one finger.

The dramatic change in Europe is the real story to me not North America where autos have been the norm forever. If Europe had stuck with the manual we'd be in good shape. It's an interesting irony hat the US market is the main consumer of manual M's these days.
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      04-26-2017, 12:09 AM   #103
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https://www.motor1.com/news/143283/bmw-m-no-manuals/


Would you stop buying cars just because of the transmission?
Yes. Would love to have something more reliable like Lexus but they don't offer it, so don't consider them or Mercedes for that matter. Yes, they will go away so will the internal combustion motor so smoke em while you have them!
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      04-26-2017, 01:18 AM   #104
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Not only is this M2 generation the last first, only and last with 6 cylinders. It's also the last with RWD. Next generation will be based on the FWD platform of the new X1. The M2 will have xDrive though. And probably some electric wizardry to improve performance further. It will be fast as hell. But will it be special to drive? Perhaps...
BMW xdrive is RWD bias for now anyway.
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      04-26-2017, 02:12 AM   #105
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BMW xdrive is RWD bias for now anyway.
I'm not opposing xDrive in itself. I've owned 5 BMW with xDrive and that in itself is no problem for me. At least not on a DD.

But they all have been naturally RWD cars with the engine mounted longitudinally. This new platform has the engine mounted transversely just like on a VW Golf or any other car with FWD.

I guess it's still possible to make the xDrive on a such a car balanced towards RWD but it just doesn't feel right. I'm no BMW purist but I don't think it feels right anyway. Some of the steering feel gets lost with xDrive. It will just make it a little less BMW and more like an AMG45.
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      04-26-2017, 02:55 PM   #106
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I'm not opposing xDrive in itself. I've owned 5 BMW with xDrive and that in itself is no problem for me. At least not on a DD.

But they all have been naturally RWD cars with the engine mounted longitudinally. This new platform has the engine mounted transversely just like on a VW Golf or any other car with FWD.

I guess it's still possible to make the xDrive on a such a car balanced towards RWD but it just doesn't feel right. I'm no BMW purist but I don't think it feels right anyway. Some of the steering feel gets lost with xDrive. It will just make it a little less BMW and more like an AMG45.
My wife has a previous gen (E84) X1, and I recently had a current (F48) X1 as a loaner. The F48 has a lot going for it. It's quieter, a bit more spacious, and the interior design and materials feel more luxurious. But the front seats feel undersized (and neither my wife or I are what anyone would call "large").

The chassis feel is where the F48 really suffers in comparison. If you push the E84 hard enough, you can tell it's built on a modified 3 series platform. While it's no M2, it can be at least a little entertaining. If you do the same in the F48, it feels like a tall Mini, except almost all of the fun trailing-throttle mischievous behavior has been neutered.
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      04-26-2017, 08:27 PM   #107
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BMW M's latest view on the manual transmission: MT dying in slow-motion ?

http://www.caradvice.com.au/544885/2...-superior-dct/
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      04-27-2017, 07:17 AM   #108
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I hope they still make manuals, I was waiting for the new 2018 S5, but found out they were only offering automatic transmission, so I started looking for something else. So jumped to M2. I'm guessing some of us made our decision based on the transmission like I did.
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      04-27-2017, 12:51 PM   #109
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No manual in the M2 would have been a deal breaker for me. I probably would have gone with a late model Cayman.
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      04-27-2017, 02:31 PM   #110
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as far as I know Audi and Merc has no manual options now.
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