[Spa2k]

I have a month or so to decide on the DCT vs. manual question, before my allocation comes up. For the dozens of cars I've owned in my life, I've always chosen manuals - the only exceptions being a couple of real estate Buicks, a handful of family hauler SUVs (and one minivan!), plus an early GTI DSG the dealer bought back after a month because he couldn't keep it running. But all of my fun cars have been manuals.

This time around, I thought it was time to try something different - a paddle-shift, high-tech DCT - and I've been really intrigued with the thought of exploring performance driving with one. But then I remember the joys of barreling into a turn on the edge of sanity, braking hard, blipping the throttle and uncorking the perfect, orgasmic, 3-2 downshift. Can you do that with a DCT?

[STK]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

I have a month or so to decide on the DCT vs. manual question, before my allocation comes up. For the dozens of cars I've owned in my life, I've always chosen manuals - the only exceptions being a couple of real estate Buicks, a handful of family hauler SUVs (and one minivan!), plus an early GTI DSG the dealer bought back after a month because he couldn't keep it running. But all of my fun cars have been manuals.

This time around, I thought it was time to try something different - a paddle-shift, high-tech DCT - and I've been really intrigued with the thought of exploring performance driving with one. But then I remember the joys of barreling into a turn on the edge of sanity, braking hard, blipping the throttle and uncorking the perfect, orgasmic, 3-2 downshift. Can you do that with a DCT?

If not at least you'll save on dry cleaning.

[bartginger]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

I have a month or so to decide on the DCT vs. manual question, before my allocation comes up. For the dozens of cars I've owned in my life, I've always chosen manuals - the only exceptions being a couple of real estate Buicks, a handful of family hauler SUVs (and one minivan!), plus an early GTI DSG the dealer bought back after a month because he couldn't keep it running. But all of my fun cars have been manuals.

This time around, I thought it was time to try something different - a paddle-shift, high-tech DCT - and I've been really intrigued with the thought of exploring performance driving with one. But then I remember the joys of barreling into a turn on the edge of sanity, braking hard, blipping the throttle and uncorking the perfect, orgasmic, 3-2 downshift. Can you do that with a DCT?

I had the exact same situation and made the same decision with my previous BMW; an M235i. I thought I would "try something different, get the new technology, etc." I regretted getting the automatic from the first week I had it. It simply was not fun to drive- at all. I sold it and bought a new M2 with a manual, losing a ton of money in the process, but I learned a valuable lesson. If you enjoy driving manual transmission cars, do NOT get an automatic/DCT. You will regret it.

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by bartginger

I had the exact same situation and made the same decision with my previous BMW; an M235i. I thought I would "try something different, get the new technology, etc." I regretted getting the automatic from the first week I had it. It simply was not fun to drive- at all. I sold it and bought a new M2 with a manual, losing a ton of money in the process, but I learned a valuable lesson. If you enjoy driving manual transmission cars, do NOT get an automatic/DCT. You will regret it.

Very similar to my experience as well.
I see a lot of people get completely defensive about DCTs even though they haven't ever tried a manual transmission car. I think we should all try and teach as many people as possible about using manuals so they at least know how it feels. Beyond that, if they still want to get a DCT or any other auto transmission, it would be an informed and correct decision on their part.

[bartginger]

Originally Posted by Gatte

Very similar to my experience as well.
I see a lot of people get completely defensive about DCTs even though they haven't ever tried a manual transmission car. I think we should all try and teach as many people as possible about using manuals so they at least know how it feels. Beyond that, if they still want to get a DCT or any other auto transmission, it would be an informed and correct decision on their part.

Getting non-manual lovers to try them and buy them is way beyond my capability. My only (and strong) opinion for the manual-guy debating on trying the DCT is that IF you are a long-time manual driver/lover, you may suffer terrible buyer's remorse if you buy the DCT. At the very least, borrow or rent a DCT car for a week and then see how you feel about it. My experience, even when using the paddles (which you will find you will want to use 95% of the time to replicate your old ways) is it will just NOT be same for you and you will be very sorry you got the DCT.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by bartginger

I had the exact same situation and made the same decision with my previous BMW; an M235i. I thought I would "try something different, get the new technology, etc." I regretted getting the automatic from the first week I had it. It simply was not fun to drive- at all. I sold it and bought a new M2 with a manual, losing a ton of money in the process, but I learned a valuable lesson. If you enjoy driving manual transmission cars, do NOT get an automatic/DCT. You will regret it.

Same here. Quick shifting ZF8 with paddle shifters sounded great. The novelty wore off after about a month into a 3 year lease. Live, learn, and never make that mistake again.

[reppucci]

I have driven a manual since age 16 when I got a 1975 Fiat 124 spider!

And I grew up in NYC!!!!

Since then EVERY one of my cars have been manual. I do have automatic in my stable but each of my primary daily drivers have been manuals for the past 43 years. I am 59!

Each of my three kids has a manual vehicle!

I can drive an automatic but I am always reaching for the third pedal!

I know I am no longer relevant when I prefer my cars to have keys, dials for temperature and radio, and a THIRD pedal! My M2 MT...only 1 of 3.. third pedal.. I will take it. The keyless concept....I am having a hard time!

For BMW stating 20% for M2 production???? I will look at the 2017 M2 production... for North America Model year 2016 40% chose manual. I can't believe it is much different for MY 2017 but I will check several hundred 2017 production tranny options and report back.

[Aronis]

Great Thread.

I took what was available and would have been happy with either.

I find it amazing what people still do with older cars. There are quite a few RS6 drivers who have DIY swapped their 5 speed autos for 6 speed manual transmission. There is a guy who makes the 'kit' with the mounting adapter needed to put a 6 speed from the older S4's on the RS6.

As long as there are car enthusiasts around someone is going to figure out how to swap the new fancy auto for an old fashioned manual transmission and make it work right.

As far as fast shifting is concerned, from what I can recall, the sequential shifter in the Ferrari's is not a dual clutch setup but still shifts faster than ANYTHING out there. The ZF 8 speed in my 2013 A8L shifted pretty fast compared to my RS6 2003 technology slush box.

I don't see Autonomous car's 'taking over' for at least another 100 years. There will be a surge in interest and then the problems will put it back a few decades. The transmission time will involve a mix of Autonomous with real drivers and real weather and real road issues, etc. Enjoy the ride.

Mike

[SoCalRob]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

Same here. Quick shifting ZF8 with paddle shifters sounded great. The novelty wore off after about a month into a 3 year lease. Live, learn, and never make that mistake again.

It only took about 2 days before using the paddle shifters on my 2014 M5 grew tiresome. After that, I rarely bothered with them. Sold the car after 9 months, due in large part to unhappiness with the DCT. -ir

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by SoCalRob

It only took about 2 days before using the paddle shifters on my 2014 M5 grew tiresome. After that, I rarely bothered with them. Sold the car after 9 months, due in large part to unhappiness with the DCT. -ir

I didn't like the paddle shifters either. Thought it was cool when I bought it and tried it for a few weeks but it felt more like pressing a button on the steering wheel than actually changing the gear and I just stopped using it.

If 40% of the 2016 M2s were really manual, there is still hope that the M2 CS could be equipped with a stick. I just hope BMW sees it. If not there will be people who will start looking for used/new p-cars.

[W///]

Originally Posted by SoCalRob

It only took about 2 days before using the paddle shifters on my 2014 M5 grew tiresome. After that, I rarely bothered with them. Sold the car after 9 months, due in large part to unhappiness with the DCT. -ir

You guys lasted longer than I did. When I was in Munich, I rented an E92 M3 from the BMW Welt and got bored after about a day.

I'm sure I'll get called a manual snob, but I'm not trying to be. If you like 2 pedals, that's awesome, it's just not for me.

[IS+1]

It's very encouraging to see that there are still so many ardent fans of the manual transmission. I respect that preferences vary, but to me a manual transmission is a must in any car that I buy for myself. If the M2 did not come with a manual transmission, I would not have ordered one. To me, no matter how great a car is, if it does not have a manual transmission I will find the driving experience slightly lacking. This is just my opinion, and i do not expect everyone to agree.

[Destroya]

All my fun cars have been manuals. Driving fast is fun but you can have fun with a manual even if not driving fast.

[M2 Blur]

I have owned nothing but manuals for 25 years and if I can, that will be my sole choice. It's not about faster shifts, 0-60... it's the connection to the car that pulls me in.

It's not that I look down upon an automatic transmission. Every time I'm in a loaner or rental, it's an auto. Sometimes I get a BMW loaner with a sports package and a couple times I got a 335is DCT. It's fine... I drive it, commute, appreciate a little less effort but I feel I'm floating in the car, not driving it. Even in my lucky opportunities to drive a Lambo Gallardo, Porsche Turbo S and a couple choice exotics... I still get back into my car and feel that connection again.

I have come close to going to the other side, but I always err on the side of caution and choose a manual coupe every time.

I have the same affinity for coupes vs a 4 door. I'm not always going to to be drawn to practicality or convenience. That's me... it's not a rule nor does it apply to everyone.

Drive what you can afford, what makes you smile and appreciate how lucky you are to be passionate about what you drive... whatever that is. Long live the manual! I can dream right?

[m34m]

Wow lots of essays being written here. Passionate subject. Here's my last one involving some nice fuzzy math. Thus far 11,500 M2's have gone out the door with supposedly 20% manuals. That's 2300 cars with a retail value of $53,000 (yes I'm using US) or $121 million. That's nothing to sneeze at. If BMW wants to stupidly assume those people will migrate to DCT because they decide to unilaterally eliminate manual without asking the customer they are sadly mistaken. I for one would be out.

Porsche offers every sports car they make with both. The uproar after the PDK only GT3 taught them a lesson they won't soon forget and they responded. If BMW wants to play this idiotic game then I'm a Porsche guy it's as simple as that. If they wanna release CS models and GTS models as DCT only they should think twice.

By the way why does everyone treat Ferrari like they can do no wrong and never call them out on their love affair with the dual clutch? If nobody else will say it especially journalists then I will. It's a disgrace that a Ferrari with a manual transmission cannot be purchased today.

[Artemis]

Drive what you personally like most. Don't let your choice depend on what others prefer. It's your car. Most of the time you will like the transmission you have and sometimes, depending on circumstances and mood, you wish you had the other transmission. Anyway, despite differences regarding concept and driving feel, both are 'win'.

Originally Posted by m34m

Wow lots of essays being written here.

Two posts from the past explaining why my vote goes to 6MT (additional factor: grown up with manual transmissions).

Originally Posted by Artemis

Speaking for myself: 6MT was a deliberate choice from day 1 of the M2 ordering process (and even long before).

My dealer asked me a couple of times if I remained convinced of my 6MT choice "because the M-DCT is a technology marvel". I replied that I did by no means doubt that the M-DCT is a nice piece of machinery, shifting at the blink of an eye. But no matter how brilliant it is, by nature it could never perform the unlimited number of nuances that you can achieve with a 6MT.

With the M-DCT the computer calls the shots, and does so in a perfectly pre-programmed fashion. Always the same routine, observing the computer instructions. The driver can only toggle between program packages (presets). Some prefer to mimic driving it in manual mode, but IMHO then you'd better get the real thing and start to use your left foot.

With the 6MT the driver calls the shots, both feet are active and can perform all subtle nuances at will as regards timing, mechanics and sound. The driver is in charge. No machine can touch this. And then there's also that peculiar feeling of the right hand resting on the gear lever and working that gearbox. As I noted in a previous comment: if only you would know how I'm smiling like a young kid at the fairground, when enjoying that visceral and tactile pleasure of rowing through the gears of my 6MT M2.

Here's an older post:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Let us say that it's a joy for the senses, including both hands and feet dancing around. The driver's seat as a workplace, rather than as your couch behind a switchboard. Push and pull, twist and shove, rather than 'click'. That visceral experience of more mechanics than electronics at play + you're in control.

Feel free to call me 'old fashioned' or 'oldskool': that diagonal movement to shift from 2nd to 3rd and back all the time through the twisties, physically using force to push the stick at arms' length away from you, and pulling it back towards you bending your arm (triggering the rev-match howl - yeah, I learned to accept it - when driving in any other mode than DSC OFF), both feet at work, climb a little further in those revs or not, that feeling of your right hand on the stick allowing you to instinctively (or more accurate: on the basis of your experience with the car) know exactly what gear you're in, etc. Priceless.

[W///]

Originally Posted by m34m

Wow lots of essays being written here. Passionate subject. Here's my last one involving some nice fuzzy math. Thus far 11,500 M2's have gone out the door with supposedly 20% manuals. That's 2300 cars with a retail value of $53,000 (yes I'm using US) or $121 million. That's nothing to sneeze at. If BMW wants to stupidly assume those people will migrate to DCT because they decide to unilaterally eliminate manual without asking the customer they are sadly mistaken. I for one would be out.

Porsche offers every sports car they make with both. The uproar after the PDK only GT3 taught them a lesson they won't soon forget and they responded. If BMW wants to play this idiotic game then I'm a Porsche guy it's as simple as that. If they wanna release CS models and GTS models as DCT only they should think twice.

By the way why does everyone treat Ferrari like they can do no wrong and never call them out on their love affair with the dual clutch? If nobody else will say it especially journalists then I will. It's a disgrace that a Ferrari with a manual transmission cannot be purchased today.

What's silly is assuming that BMW makes $53k on each 6MT M2. The real number will be far smaller than that after you consider R&D, production, testing and development ect ect...

I hate to say it, but 20% was a much lower number than I expected for a so called enthusiast model. It's now time for me to start planning on how to get my hands on an LCI M2 at the end of its life cycle

[reppucci]

Originally Posted by Aronis

Great Thread.

I took what was available and would have been happy with either.

I find it amazing what people still do with older cars. There are quite a few RS6 drivers who have DIY swapped their 5 speed autos for 6 speed manual transmission. There is a guy who makes the 'kit' with the mounting adapter needed to put a 6 speed from the older S4's on the RS6.

Mike

Ha so true! I have an 04 A6 2.7TT with 6 spd manual my DD ....207K...OEM bone stock btw.. just blew a.turbo . and I am sinking 5K into replacing the blown turbos... and suspension maintenance. ONLY reason is the manual transmission!

[reppucci]

Originally Posted by W///

What's silly is assuming that BMW makes $53k on each 6MT M2. The real number will be far smaller than that after you consider R&D, production, testing and development ect ect...

I hate to say it, but 20% was a much lower number than I expected for a so called enthusiast model. It's now time for me to start planning on how to get my hands on an LCI M2 at the end of its life cycle

I agree and I also doubt the 20% number.....2016 M2 MT was at 40%... Give me some time and I will check 2-300 VINS of recent 2017 US cars and project from there.

[W///]

Originally Posted by reppucci

Ha so true! I have an 04 A6 2.7TT with 6 spd manual my DD ....207K...OEM bone stock btw.. just blew a.turbo . and I am sinking 5K into replacing the blown turbos... and suspension maintenance. ONLY reason is the manual transmission!

This is another thing. I'm sure not people own cars for as long as us. My e36 M3 left me stranded because the slave cylinder went out. I decided to get someone to overhaul everything (clutch, flywheel, all bushings, fix 5th gear lean...) and total cost with labor was like 1600. Try that with any automatics.

Between all my Ms, my avg mileage is something like 105k miles. It's already stressful enough to think about what's going to break (cooling system, VANOS, rod bearings....). It's nice to not worry too much about the trans

[Kid Eh]

Originally Posted by W///

What's silly is assuming that BMW makes $53k on each 6MT M2. The real number will be far smaller than that after you consider R&D, production, testing and development ect ect...

I hate to say it, but 20% was a much lower number than I expected for a so called enthusiast model. It's now time for me to start planning on how to get my hands on an LCI M2 at the end of its life cycle

Originally Posted by reppucci

I agree and I also doubt the 20% number.....2016 M2 MT was at 40%... Give me some time and I will check 2-300 VINS of recent 2017 US cars and project from there.

Where did it say that's what they make? He said retail value. It's still a lot of money.

[m34m]

Originally Posted by Kid Eh

Where did it say that's what they make? He said retail value. It's still a lot of money.

Originally Posted by Kid%20Eh

Where did it say that's what they make? He said retail value. It's still a lot of money.

Thank you for picking up that nuance. I said retail value not profit for the company.