[///M2NYC15]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

You have one of the best job in the world when you work for Panerai! I am their fan and have a few SE

Thank you my good man. I do love my job

We are launching some new and exciting SE soon. I will probably treat my self to one. We shall see

[stefan]

Originally Posted by juyeop

So...since M4 CS being DCT only and that decrease a chance of M2 CS being manual, I'm seriously switching back to buying regular M2 manual and just mod it with some IND stuff to make it M2 "CS" look. I really didn't care about more power with CS anyway. I expect regular M2 hype to settle down by the time M2 CS comes out and easily pay under MSRP. What do you guys think?

Totally reasonable approach. The CS will hold its value well like most limited run BMWs but the price you pay up front for what amount to very few changes is really not worth it in my opinion.

It's also not a matter of CS = better. In many ways it will be worse for anyone other than avid track drivers. If you don't live near a decent track, or spend time on crappy roads or winter, the M2 is actually the better car. If you value sound as well, I would argue the M2 is better.

Lots of totally valid reasons not to go with the CS.

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Yeah but Porsche is a small luxury brand company with a different mindset towards its clients. BMW is a big luxury company with not so much sportiness more in it unfortunately....

This is reality. Their big volume vehicles are bottom end 3 series, 5 series boats, and primarily SUVs.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by omasou

just as the manual transmission requiring double clutching gave way to today's manual transmission that requires a foot so to will it give way to the DCT that doesn't require a foot to shift...
EDIT:
2018 MINI REFRESH...
Thanks to sources familiar with the brand’s upcoming plans, we can confirm that MINI intends to offer dual clutch automatic transmissions as part of this refresh. While we don’t yet know details of what models they’ll be found in, it’s a safe bet we’ll see the DCT option in the Cooper S and JCW models (if not more).
Moving from a torque converter automatic to a DCT is an interesting change of direction for BMW – a company that has thus far eschewed the use of dual clutch transmissions outside of M models and a few rare series models. The reason is that costs for dual clutch transmissions are typically higher given the complexity in design and manufacturing. The only way VW has been able to do it in mass is the sheer volume they can leverage. What appears to have happened is that BMW and MINI found a willing partner ready to bring costs down in order to battle the increasingly popular 8 and 9 speed automatics from ZF and Aisin.

Well, the Dacia Duster is getting a 6-speed dual-clutch transmission. Around £15K for the car:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/dacia/d...al-clutch-auto
http://www.carscoops.com/2016/09/dac...-with-edc.html
http://overdrive.in/news/2016-paris-...ion-showcased/

[cc3]

DCT will be fine for me. Had 40 years of manuals and still own a few including a 1M and GT4 however DCT is better for everyday driving in my view

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

This is a philosophy that was born from the critically acclaimed–and commercially successful–manual-equipped Cayman GT4 and the 911 R. These two helped Preuninger realize that there are customers for old-school purist cars.

I remain convinced that, alike several other competitors, Porsche was intrigued by the tremendous success of the BMW 1M: that 'manual only' rebel that got an unlikely high demand and attention for 'just' a 1-Series BMW car. That was 2011. Nowadays most people think that Porsche rebooted the manual transmission revival in 2015 with the Cayman GT4.

The M4 CS being M-DCT only, is IMHO a missed opportunity. Offer a manual transmission for the M2 CS and the rest will be history.

[ChiTownM]

Originally Posted by Artemis

I remain convinced that, alike several other competitors, Porsche was intrigued by the tremendous success of the BMW 1M: that 'manual only' rebel that got an unlikely high demand and attention for 'just' a 1-Series BMW car. That was 2011. Nowadays most people think that Porsche rebooted the manual transmission revival in 2015 with the Cayman GT4.

The M4 CS being M-DCT only, is IMHO a missed opportunity. Offer a manual transmission for the M2 CS and the rest will be history.

Fully agreed. If not, I will put my money somewhere else. I already have a dct M3 and want to add a manual cool car to it.

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by Artemis

I remain convinced that, alike several other competitors, Porsche was intrigued by the tremendous success of the BMW 1M: that 'manual only' rebel that got an unlikely high demand and attention for 'just' a 1-Series BMW car. That was 2011. Nowadays most people think that Porsche rebooted the manual transmission revival in 2015 with the Cayman GT4.

The M4 CS being M-DCT only, is IMHO a missed opportunity. Offer a manual transmission for the M2 CS and the rest will be history.

Wouldn't that be something.

The GT4, 911R and 991.2 GT3/RS design teams bench-marking to a 2011 1 series.

Only on Bimmerpost!

[quikM2]

I would only be interested in 6MT for any car at the moment, the fact that it accounts for only about 20% of sales is interesting especially considering this is a pretty niche car. So whoever was dreaming above they would be finding manual M2's on lots for under msrp just because the CS came out good luck but I have to disagree. The CS looks awesome don't get me wrong but DCT only I'm going to pass.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by M2 CSL

Wouldn't that be something.
The GT4, 911R and 991.2 GT3/RS design teams bench-marking to a 2011 1 series.
Only on Bimmerpost!

Catch my drift:

BMW 1M (2011):

• make it look and feel bold to distance it from the BMW 135i;
• make it 'manual only' to avoid trespassing the bigger brother's comfort zone;
• hype it as a purist's car ("M Pure").

Trivia:

• Dr. Kay Segler (M Division boss who secured the 1M project) when asked during a workshop at the 2011 Detroit Auto Show (Jan 2011) to coin the 1M in a single phrase:
  "The 1M is basically a truncated M3 Competition Package with a manual".
  He added that the 1M does not need more power and that the production volume was kept low "to keep resale value as high as possible - creating an instant classic".
  (source: http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/01/21/bm...-need-to-know/)
  
• Info of January 2010 pointing out that it was a deliberate choice to keep the 1M out of the M3 comfort zone (engine + power):
  "The M1 [1M] will not feature a V8 that remains exclusive to the M3. The engine is based on the updated N55 [read: N54] six cylinder but reconfigured by the M Division to accommodate Twin-Turbo and a high performance intercooler.
  PS Output is at 345PS again not to tread on the toes of the M3."
  (source: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=59)
  
• "With the M3 overlooking the M1 [1M]'s shoulder it will be positioned not to outclass that car in terms of power. Which is why it will be in the mid three hundreds [PS]."
  (source: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=108)
• In October 2012 AMG R&D chief Tobias Moers referred to the BMW 1M as benchmark within its league: "But I soon realized that this was a unique opportunity to rewrite the rules, to set new standards and eclipse the competition. From day one, I wanted this car [Merc A45 AMG] to better the BMW 1-series M coupe."
  (source http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...amg_prototype/)

Porsche Cayman GT4 (2015):

• make it look and feel bold to distance it from the Cayman GTS;
• make it 'manual only' (Cayman GTS gearbox and ratios) to avoid trespassing the bigger brother's comfort zone (small note: Cayman GTS gearbox take rate in 2014: 5% 6MT vs. 95% PDK);
• hype it as a purist's car ("GT Pure").

[m34m]

Artemis you're the man. I agree that the 1M was definitely a blue print. I think M2 should've been manual only and they would've sold just as many. BMW needs to maintain something for purists only.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by M2 CSL

Wouldn't that be something.
The GT4, 911R and 991.2 GT3/RS design teams bench-marking to a 2011 1 series.
Only on Bimmerpost!

Originally Posted by m34m

Artemis you're the man. I agree that the 1M was definitely a blue print. I think M2 should've been manual only and they would've sold just as many. BMW needs to maintain something for purists only.

Porsche GT Boss Andreas Preuninger is a hero. Definitely.

Preuninger in a TopGear interview in April 2010 about the PDK gearbox:
"Grandmas can use paddles. They aren’t challenging." (yup, his words)
(source: https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/...dr/road-test-0)

Preuninger with Chris Harris in 2015 (Cayman GT4 test):

[David1]

Originally Posted by m34m

Artemis you're the man. I agree that the 1M was definitely a blue print. I think M2 should've been manual only and they would've sold just as many. BMW needs to maintain something for purists only.

No, I want to make that choice. Right now I choose DCT.

[m34m]

Originally Posted by David1

No, I want to make that choice. Right now I choose DCT.

Exactly my point. You shouldn't have been given that choice Ã* la GT4. Take it or leave it. If BMW wanted broader appeal with base M2 the least they could do is make CS and GTS manual only. They are really getting this wrong IMO.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by David1

No, I want to make that choice. Right now I choose DCT.

The writing is on the wall, though I dislike reading it:

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

The following is as precise and explicit as I can be on this subject:
All of the 40+ production spec M2 CS built by now are DCT.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by m34m

Artemis you're the man. I agree that the 1M was definitely a blue print. I think M2 should've been manual only and they would've sold just as many. BMW needs to maintain something for purists only.

As performance oriented car it makes more sense that it would be DCT only, like the CS version appears to be.

[ryem3]

Did you see the m4 cs price announcement? $125k???
If that's true, they are out of their minds. (It might be a Euro converted price). If it's true, the m2 will be way out of control as well.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by M2 CSL

Wouldn't that be something.

The GT4, 911R and 991.2 GT3/RS design teams bench-marking to a 2011 1 series.

Only on Bimmerpost!

hang out on 1addicts and find out how many people own a 1M as well as one of those Porsches..

hell never mind.. see @cc3 in post 48 above in this thread!

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by stefan

Totally reasonable approach. The CS will hold its value well like most limited run BMWs but the price you pay up front for what amount to very few changes is really not worth it in my opinion.

It's also not a matter of CS = better. In many ways it will be worse for anyone other than avid track drivers. If you don't live near a decent track, or spend time on crappy roads or winter, the M2 is actually the better car. If you value sound as well, I would argue the M2 is better.

Lots of totally valid reasons not to go with the CS.




This is reality. Their big volume vehicles are bottom end 3 series, 5 series boats, and primarily SUVs.

Porsche is a SUV brand too these days. Check their sales.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Porsche is a SUV brand too these days. Check their sales.

The difference is Porsche still makes the 911 and Cayman. Not sure what your point is. If the question is; CAN BMW make exciting cars still? Of course. Do they need to? Heck no. Porsche still seems to care about its enthusiast community.

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by Artemis

I remain convinced that, alike several other competitors, Porsche was intrigued by the tremendous success of the BMW 1M: that 'manual only' rebel that got an unlikely high demand and attention for 'just' a 1-Series BMW car. That was 2011. Nowadays most people think that Porsche rebooted the manual transmission revival in 2015 with the Cayman GT4.

Porsche intrigued by the success of a manual-only 1-series in 2011? The GT3/GT2 were manual-only up until 2013. I doubt the 1M factored into any decision making at Porsche.

[m34m]

Originally Posted by oldmanstyle

Porsche intrigued by the success of a manual-only 1-series in 2011? The GT3/GT2 were manual-only up until 2013. I doubt the 1M factored into any decision making at Porsche.

I don't think anyone is equating the 1M to a Porsche product or suggesting it was truly used as a benchmark. However anyone that thinks Porsche doesn't carefully study what competitors are doing, particularly German ones, must be very naive.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by stefan

The difference is Porsche still makes the 911 and Cayman. Not sure what your point is. If the question is; CAN BMW make exciting cars still? Of course. Do they need to? Heck no. Porsche still seems to care about its enthusiast community.

And BMW don't? Well, it's unfair to compare the M2 with the Cayman and the M4 with the 911. They come from directly opposite directions.

If I had more money I would probably be tempted to buy a Porsche. Now my wallet made the choice for me and I'm just happy BMW made the M2 affordable.