[MR.]

Moderately surprised we are all basing our info on dealers. Since when was that reliable. German dealers were told two months ago a "M2 CS" did not exist. I simply do not see any reason to believe them.

I feel this is the only logical set up:

"The 999 number was out a while ago via a post that had a screenshot leak stating that the M2 CS will start production from march 2018 (Not limited) and a rumored hardcore GTS/CSL will be produced in limited quantity (999) sometime in 2019. That number was touted to be the total production for the M2 GTS/CSL which was to come out after the M2 CS. "

Oh and at the IAA 2017, I had a short talk with the BMW M CEO Frank van Weel (Dutchman like me) and had the chance to ask him some questions. I of course asked about the M2 CS (or whatever it will be called), but he did not comment at all on our new baby which will be in our garages around June. He however told me that he prefers the M2 with a manual and the M4 with M-DCT. He drove 12,000 KM in his LBB M2 and enjoyed it a lot.

I also touched on our comments about seats, brakes, etc, simply our desire to have more individuality in our cars and he stated that the M2 is positioned as a fun M car and that the lineup of M Performance parts offers a wonderful variety of options, but if you feel like upgrading your brake set ups, brake lines or other parts because you do a lot of track driving then this can be done but it would not be something BMW M would ever offer under the M Performance brand. Instead, we will have another model for this, as you might have read everywhere the past week.

Other than this, he spoke highly about us as a community and understood the importance of the passion we have for the brand. He said it is wonderful to see how we as M fans are putting so much passion in our cars and use them so much. He said it with a smile on his face and said nice words about the community. Lovely to hear that from the M CEO.

MR

[N54]

Originally Posted by MR.

I also touched on our comments about seats, brakes, etc, simply our desire to have more individuality in our cars and he stated that the M2 is positioned as a fun M car and that the lineup of M Performance parts offers a wonderful variety of options, but if you feel like upgrading your brake set ups, brake lines or other parts because you do a lot of track driving then this can be done but it would not be something BMW M would ever offer under the M Performance brand. Instead, we will have another model for this, as you might have read everywhere the past week.

MR

Is that the resurection of the CSL ?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by MR.

Moderately surprised we are all basing our info on dealers. Since when was that reliable. German dealers were told two months ago a "M2 CS" did not exist. I simply do not see any reason to believe them.

Digging up a record played in February 2016:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Allow me to dig up that record again in, say, Autumn 2017.

We're almost 19 months later and, hey look, tomorrow is the September Equinox kicking off Autumn 2017 here.

[bogeyman]

Oh man, is that sad! haha

In M3_Adjusters defence, his comment was reverse psychology to get the M engineers to plant the S55 into the M2 - and it worked !

Originally Posted by Artemis

Digging up a record played in February 2016:


We're almost 19 months later and, hey look, tomorrow is the September Equinox kicking off Autumn 2017 here.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by bogeyman

Oh man, is that sad! haha
In M3_Adjusters defence, his comment was reverse psychology to get the M engineers to plant the S55 into the M2 - and it worked !

Actually, back then the S55 engine had already been squeezed inside an M2 test mule.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Actually, back then the S55 engine had already been squeezed inside an M2 test mule.

The rumor was it was too quick so they went to the N55 to make a gap to the M3/M4..... Too bad they did not decide to de-tune it back then.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by bim2er

The rumor was it was too quick so they went to the N55 to make a gap to the M3/M4..... Too bad they did not decide to de-tune it back then.

Rumor has it that already in 2015 the M2 test mule with S55 engine lapped the Nürburgring more than 8 seconds faster than the base M4.

If that's true, understandably a little too quick to release as base M2.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Rumor has it that already in 2015 the M2 test mule with S55 engine lapped the Nürburgring more than 8 seconds faster than the base M4.

If that's true, understandably a little too quick to release as base M2.

If they limit the CS to a 1000 units this seems like why. Get a bunch of good press on the 2 series that's better than an M4! BMW really knows how to make an M car again! Customer shows up at the dealer "I'll take the 2 series that's better than the M4!" Dealer replies "sold out, but we do have the M4 with comp pack right over here...."

[ChrisK]

BMW is it's own worse enemy. All these series! 1-999, X1-X999

If the M2 with an S55 was turned - who would buy an M4 (M3 you may need the doors)?? For the Luxury - aka the leather interior? I didn't have that in 99% of my BMW's. They were just fine.

[chmura]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

BMW is it's own worse enemy. All these series! 1-999, X1-X999

If the M2 with an S55 was turned - who would buy an M4 (M3 you may need the doors)?? For the Luxury - aka the leather interior? I didn't have that in 99% of my BMW's. They were just fine.

BMW needs to make the BMW M2 CS a no frills M car. Leave all the luxury out of it and make it a true hard core performance car.

M4/M3 buyers want all the amenities, HUD, DCT, EDC, leather dash, etc.

Lets face it, probably 80+ percent of the members on the M4 boards get a fully loaded M4/M3. Not sure that they want all these options or its for forum bragging rights.

That said, with a no frills M2 with a S55 on the market people will still buy the M4 for all the options offered for that car.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by chmura

BMW needs to make the BMW M2 CS a no frills M car. Leave all the luxury out of it and make it a true hard core performance car.
M4/M3 buyers want all the amenities, HUD, DCT, EDC, leather dash, etc.
Lets face it, probably 80+ percent of the members on the M4 boards get a fully loaded M4/M3. Not sure that they want all these options or its for forum bragging rights.
That said, with a no frills M2 with a S55 on the market people will still buy the M4 for all the options offered for that car.

Agreed.

But if the "M2 Competition" happens to outrun the M3/M4 on track, BMW may push its price-tag deep into M3/M4 territory. One cannot have the cake and eat it.

[medphysdave]

I'm ready for some news

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by M2 CSL

I can see them going for a M2 CSL first.

Doing everything they can to save a dying M brand image with a layup like a M2 CSL. The base M2 has been well received and it should be hard for them to mess it up.

They wont risk having the first CSL car be something like an M5 CSL where they run the risk of damaging the CSL name like some may say they did to the GTS name. Hence why the GTS name will soon be gone.

Everyone knows a M2 CSL makes a ton more sense and will be better received by journalists than something like an M5 CSL. The M4 is still recovering from the GTS thing so I don't see a M4 CSL happening anytime soon.

What dying M brand image?
The M cars sales are particular healthy and in process of being expanded.
Maybe they are dying to others because we see no need for a direct response to Company B as Company A has already done.
BMW M already has a substantial lead in innovations and technology.
The M4 GTS was an acquired taste that brought a lesson in complexity that was removed for the M4 CS.
Yes there will continue to be the M cars customers really want such as the X3M and then the very enthusiast specific cars such as the M2 CS.
They will not use the CSL for the Sedans especially historically it is tied to the Coupe but they will use a more specific term to label and identify the sedans.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Agreed.

But if the "M2 Competition" happens to outrun the M3/M4 on track, BMW may push its price-tag deep into M3/M4 territory. One cannot have the cake and eat it.

They will introduce a further progress on the M4 again completing the cycle of models which will effectively close the M4 chapter.
But the F90 is fast approaching the horizon.

[medphysdave]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

They will introduce a further progress on the M4 again completing the cycle of models which will effectively close the M4 chapter.
But the F90 is fast approaching the horizon.

I'm guessing that it will be an M4 CSL with the next generation S motor?

[M2 CSL]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

What dying M brand image?
The M cars sales are particular healthy and in process of being expanded.
Maybe they are dying to others because we see no need for a direct response to Company B as Company A has already done.
BMW M already has a substantial lead in innovations and technology.
The M4 GTS was an acquired taste that brought a lesson in complexity that was removed for the M4 CS.
Yes there will continue to be the M cars customers really want such as the X3M and then the very enthusiast specific cars such as the M2 CS.
They will not use the CSL for the Sedans especially historically it is tied to the Coupe but they will use a more specific term to label and identify the sedans.

By dying image I just mean it's no longer the only game in town. Cars like the M3 were always head and shoulders above the other European competition. Now they are on par on average and it just comes down to personal taste imo in terms of what you buy. Seems like M is slowly loosing ground every generation that goes by.

What innovations are they brining to the table? What tech do they have others don't? Not trying to be wise here, I'm genuinely curious. I see a lot of very cool tech in cars like the TTRS and Guadrifoglio that I don't see in BMW land.

Edit- there are a lot of innovations on a car like the new M5 I guess but I'd argue that tech doesn't make a great car. The most positively received M car in recent memory was the M2 and I never once saw "technology" as the reason. In many ways the M2s lack of tech and even lack of innovation was the recipe for its success.

Why a dying M brand image?

10 years ago on these forums:

Q: Why did you buy the M3 over the Camaro?
A: Is that a real question??? Camaro can't even turn, dog on track, unreliable, not a real drivers car. Oh and look at that crappy interior!

Today:
Q: Why did you buy the M4 over the Camaro?
A: I wouldn't be seen in a camaro! That interior is cheap compared to the M3.

Losing ground

[medphysdave]

At some point the useable limit will be surpassed. I would argue that we are there. Progression is almost regression at this point. If the fastest car around a track is driving itself, then what's the point?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

I could see a CSL coming first as well. For reasons mentioned above. However, there has to be a method to the madness. It makes no sense to make a $100k ultra limited run car "for the enthusiast" that never actually gets into the hands of the enthusiast. The enthusiast is clearly shopping in the mid $50k region, and might stretch to the $70k range for something more "enthusiast oriented." Hence the CS.


1. M2 CSL ends up being affordable. Only a few people will get them, but they will be parked in garages in "enthusiast" neighborhoods. the guy next door can afford one, but can't get one. Raises interest. The limited run cars are a marketing campaign. Neighbor looks into a CS because it's almost the same car.

2. M2 CSL is crazy expensive. It's beyond the price range for most enthusiasts. Limited run for collectors. Along comes the M2 CS that can be optioned to the point of the CSL. You can get into one for around $60k, but you could option it into the stratosphere with lightweight parts, suspension, brakes, cooling, carbon roof, etc. You would have to produce the CSL first so that the parts could be tested.

Just some food for thought. I'm still hoping the CS is first as I don't want an ultra track focused car, and I've had my hopes up for ordering in January.

Originally Posted by M2 CSL

I can see them going for a M2 CSL first.

Doing everything they can to save a dying M brand image with a layup like a M2 CSL. The base M2 has been well received and it should be hard for them to mess it up.

They wont risk having the first CSL car be something like an M5 CSL where they run the risk of damaging the CSL name like some may say they did to the GTS name. Hence why the GTS name will soon be gone.

Everyone knows a M2 CSL makes a ton more sense and will be better received by journalists than something like an M5 CSL. The M4 is still recovering from the GTS thing so I don't see a M4 CSL happening anytime soon.

CS first , and then CSL and here is why.

The M2 had been for the most part pitched as an entry level luxury car. The M2 CS will be a more " track oriented". BMW will want to line up as many buyers that still want a daily driver type so they can sell CS and base models.

Then at the END of the run.. you come out with the CSL.

Consider these examples.

E30 M3 , Evo 1, 2 and then sport evo

E90 M3 GTS and CRT came out towards the end of run iirc.

Cayman , Cayman S , Cayman R
Cayman, cayman S, caymanRS , Cayman GT4

Same is true for Chevrolet with ZO6, Subaru with STI, Ford with the R models , Honda with the Civic .. and other manufacturers.

Development.... one thing the M4 GTS didn't have the advantage of.


Either way ... I'm banking on BMW clearing out all the people that still want a daily driveable cat first with a CS and then deliver a hardcore CSL as the last blast.

[medphysdave]

I hope so. Impatiently waiting for CS news.

[chmura]

When shall we received an update on the M2 CS?

SCOTT26 hinted that we should be receiving one soon.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by M2 CSL

By dying image I just mean it's no longer the only game in town. Cars like the M3 were always head and shoulders above the other European competition. Now they are on par on average and it just comes down to personal taste imo in terms of what you buy. Seems like M is slowly loosing ground every generation that goes by.

What innovations are they brining to the table? What tech do they have others don't? Not trying to be wise here, I'm genuinely curious. I see a lot of very cool tech in cars like the TTRS and Guadrifoglio that I don't see in BMW land.

Edit- there are a lot of innovations on a car like the new M5 I guess but I'd argue that tech doesn't make a great car. The most positively received M car in recent memory was the M2 and I never once saw "technology" as the reason. In many ways the M2s lack of tech and even lack of innovation was the recipe for its success.

Why a dying M brand image?

10 years ago on these forums:

Q: Why did you buy the M3 over the Camaro?
A: Is that a real question??? Camaro can't even turn, dog on track, unreliable, not a real drivers car. Oh and look at that crappy interior!

Today:
Q: Why did you buy the M4 over the Camaro?
A: I wouldn't be seen in a camaro! That interior is cheap compared to the M3.

Losing ground

To be fair it's odd to make a post asking what tech and what innovations BMW is bringing to M? Then moments later say the tech and innovations don't make a great M car and that removing them is arguably what makes something like the M2 great. Pick a side.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by chmura

BMW needs to make the BMW M2 CS a no frills M car. Leave all the luxury out of it and make it a true hard core performance car.

M4/M3 buyers want all the amenities, HUD, DCT, EDC, leather dash, etc.

Lets face it, probably 80+ percent of the members on the M4 boards get a fully loaded M4/M3. Not sure that they want all these options or its for forum bragging rights.

That said, with a no frills M2 with a S55 on the market people will still buy the M4 for all the options offered for that car.

M4CS is your guide...