[stefan]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

No it doesn't.More like half the performance of the M2.The M240i has a great engine but that's about it.The car just doesn't measure up to the M2 in the handling department for anyone that is used to driving a real M car.

Well.. No. That simply isn't true. In a straight line it actually pulls away in some gears and situations without an overboost limitation. Handling isn't as good but it no slouch. To say it's not even half as good is pure confirmation bias.

Setting aside brand snobbery wtf is an M car anyway these days? I've had many M cars. Back in the day the gap between the regular series and the M was massive. Absolutely enormous. Now it isn't so much anymore. Especially when we talk M2. I'm less concerned about "is it a real M" and more about the total value.

[nick_stp]

Well, I guess it's true most of the time that you can't expect it to be xx% better when you pay xx% premium, right.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by stefan

It offers 9/10ths of the performance for like 7/10ths of the price, financing considered, looks aside. So you have to really really want an M2 and be less interested in easy power gains to buy an M2.

My point is that everyone is entitled to make their own value judgement. Where you went off the rails is framing your argument as logical, and everyone else's as emotional.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by stefan

Well.. No. That simply isn't true. In a straight line it actually pulls away in some gears and situations without an overboost limitation. Handling isn't as good but it no slouch. To say it's not even half as good is pure confirmation bias.

Setting aside brand snobbery wtf is an M car anyway these days? I've had many M cars. Back in the day the gap between the regular series and the M was massive. Absolutely enormous. Now it isn't so much anymore. Especially when we talk M2. I'm less concerned about "is it a real M" and more about the total value.

Perhaps the 240 is better than the 235...but I had a 235 for roughly 18 months, and it was the worst BMW I've owned to date. The car is truly about marketing, and getting people to believe that they've gotten a pseudo ///M car, which they haven't. The car is a 235 with PPK and some M badges. Don't believe the hype otherwise.

The car was such a disappointment to me that I left the brand, and got a Porsche. It was that awful to drive every day. I dreamed of running it into a tree and putting myself out of my misery. I nicknamed it "squishy" for the way that it bounced around on fairly smooth roads. And BMW compared it to the 1M...puh-leeeeeeeese.

The M2, on the other hand, is an F80 from the beltline down, which is worlds apart from the 235/240. Worlds. The suspension actually works, the brakes are far better, and the M2 has arguably the best sounding M exhaust at the moment. It's also a playful car that encourages debauchery, which is a great thing. Don't forget much wider tires, bigger and better looking wheels, and a more unique interior. And hips...the ass on the M2 is only outdone by the ass on the F80, but my god does it look good.

Does the 240 pull hard? I am sure it does. That's probably its most redeeming quality, and the most un-BMW quality the car can boast about ...but don't be confused...it's a standard BMW with PPK and 117 M badges. Nothing more.

[termigni]

I don't know too much about B58 engine except it is new. But I sure know when I see one on the road because they zoom by me and my 328i so so hard all the freaking time.

[BruceM]

I own an M2, and a buddy owns an M235i, because for some reason he decided he "needed" xDrive and he did not want to wait. He tweaked his car with the standard jb4, catless DP, etc. I have driven it extensively, and he's driven mine.

There is no doubt in either of our minds that the driving experience in these cars differs substantially. His car is fine, and if it were not for BMW's bullshit "M" designation all over that car I would say it was more than fine. It pulls pretty impressively, for sure. But the feel of the car on the road is clearly different, and the faster you go the more obvious the difference. The biggest difference is suspension, actually. The M235i, even hopped up in power, feels like a car meant for daily driving in a city, and that's about it. The M2 can do that, but it can also do a lot more. Given that the price delta between his, loaded AT xDrive car and my stripper 6MT M2 was basically at zero, the contest was not even a contest.

How much of our opinions are "emotional"? For people who like cars, I think it's impossible to separate out the objective from the subjective completely. But the objective differences, at least the way many of us here drive, are really quite obvious.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by BruceM

I own an M2, and a buddy owns an M235i, because for some reason he decided he "needed" xDrive and he did not want to wait. He tweaked his car with the standard jb4, catless DP, etc. I have driven it extensively, and he's driven mine.

There is no doubt in either of our minds that the driving experience in these cars differs substantially. His car is fine, and if it were not for BMW's bullshit "M" designation all over that car I would say it was more than fine. It pulls pretty impressively, for sure. But the feel of the car on the road is clearly different, and the faster you go the more obvious the difference. The biggest difference is suspension, actually. The M235i, even hopped up in power, feels like a car meant for daily driving in a city, and that's about it. The M2 can do that, but it can also do a lot more. Given that the price delta between his, loaded AT xDrive car and my stripper 6MT M2 was basically at zero, the contest was not even a contest.

How much of our opinions are "emotional"? For people who like cars, I think it's impossible to separate out the objective from the subjective completely. But the objective differences, at least the way many of us here drive, are really quite obvious.

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Perhaps the 240 is better than the 235...but I had a 235 for roughly 18 months, and it was the worst BMW I've owned to date. The car is truly about marketing, and getting people to believe that they've gotten a pseudo ///M car, which they haven't. The car is a 235 with PPK and some M badges. Don't believe the hype otherwise.

The car was such a disappointment to me that I left the brand, and got a Porsche. It was that awful to drive every day. I dreamed of running it into a tree and putting myself out of my misery. I nicknamed it "squishy" for the way that it bounced around on fairly smooth roads. And BMW compared it to the 1M...puh-leeeeeeeese.

The M2, on the other hand, is an F80 from the beltline down, which is worlds apart from the 235/240. Worlds. The suspension actually works, the brakes are far better, and the M2 has arguably the best sounding M exhaust at the moment. It's also a playful car that encourages debauchery, which is a great thing. Don't forget much wider tires, bigger and better looking wheels, and a more unique interior. And hips...the ass on the M2 is only outdone by the ass on the F80, but my god does it look good.

Does the 240 pull hard? I am sure it does. That's probably its most redeeming quality, and the most un-BMW quality the car can boast about ...but don't be confused...it's a standard BMW with PPK and 117 M badges. Nothing more.

Lol, I've tracked my M235 more than 10 times and the suspension in stock form works just fine on the track. I can easily keep up with V8 M3's on any track driven by fellow A group drivers.

The way you describe the suspension difference between the M235 and the M2 makes me think that you either have no clue what you're talking about or that the M2 is really a GT Porsche wearing fake BMW badges...

Stop exaggerating, the difference between the M235 and the M2 is not that big.
Enough for most of us to want to upgrade, sure but I guarantee you that any decent driver in a M235 would run circles around a novice in an M2 on the track.

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Lol, I've tracked my M235 more than 10 times and the suspension in stock form works just fine on the track. I can easily keep up with V8 M3's on any track driven by fellow A group drivers.

The way you describe the suspension difference between the M235 and the M2 makes me think that you either have no clue what you're talking about or that the M2 is really a GT Porsche wearing fake BMW badges...

Stop exaggerating, the difference between the M235 and the M2 is not that big.
Enough for most of us to want to upgrade, sure but I guarantee you that any decent driver in a M235 would run circles around a novice in an M2 on the track.

As a current M2 owner and as a former 235i owner with numerous track days, I concur with this statement. However, I do note that my '17 M2 is 4 seconds quicker at Watkins Glen than my slightly modified (wheels and tires only) 235i.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Lol, I've tracked my M235 more than 10 times and the suspension in stock form works just fine on the track. I can easily keep up with V8 M3's on any track driven by fellow A group drivers.

The way you describe the suspension difference between the M235 and the M2 makes me think that you either have no clue what you're talking about or that the M2 is really a GT Porsche wearing fake BMW badges...

Stop exaggerating, the difference between the M235 and the M2 is not that big.
Enough for most of us to want to upgrade, sure but I guarantee you that any decent driver in a M235 would run circles around a novice in an M2 on the track.

Keep telling yourself that - I am sure it will be true at some point.

No need to bring driver skill into it - of course a better driver can outperform a novice one, even in a less capable car.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Keep telling yourself that - I am sure it will be true at some point.

No need to bring driver skill into it - of course a better driver can outperform a novice one, even in a less capable car.

Keep telling myself what? My 2018 M2 is on order
I just don't like exaggerations like the guy who was saying that his M235 drove him away from the brand and that he hated driving it.

My M235 is the best BMW I have ever owned, better than my E36 M3, E46 M3, and any E92 M3 I have driven. Of course the M2 will be even better, that's why I am upgrading. But the difference is not like going from a Yugo to a GT3 Porsche like you guys make it sound.

Also remember that the M235 was universally praised, and even replaced the 3 series on the Car and Driver 10 Best list.
So saying that it's a shitty car just because (obviously) the M2 is stiffer and has more performance oriented suspension and brakes (as it should) is silly.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Lol, I've tracked my M235 more than 10 times and the suspension in stock form works just fine on the track. I can easily keep up with V8 M3's on any track driven by fellow A group drivers.

The way you describe the suspension difference between the M235 and the M2 makes me think that you either have no clue what you're talking about or that the M2 is really a GT Porsche wearing fake BMW badges...

Stop exaggerating, the difference between the M235 and the M2 is not that big.
Enough for most of us to want to upgrade, sure but I guarantee you that any decent driver in a M235 would run circles around a novice in an M2 on the track.

I'm glad you think the M235i's suspension is "just fine" on the track. Get back to us when you drive an M2 on the same track so you can actually know what you are talking about when you try to compare the two. Stock to stock, the difference is not minor.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Keep telling myself what? My 2018 M2 is on order
I just don't like exaggerations like the guy who was saying that his M235 drove him away from the brand and that he hated driving it.

My 235 is the best BMW I have ever owned, better than my E36 M3, E46 M3, and any E92 M3 I have driven. Of course the M2 will be even better, that's why I am upgrading. But the difference is not like going from a Yugo to a GT3 Porsche like you guys make it sound.

I'm that guy - it DID drive me away from the brand.

Not because it was a terrible car, because it wasn't. I had to get rid of it because it was not at all what it was marketed to be - and that fault lies on me, I bought into the hype, hook line and sinker.

I am trying to help anyone else who might be on the fence - don't make the same mistake I did - get the real M car if you're looking for an M experience. If you want an M sport with PPK and lots of M badges, get the 235/240.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Ramos

So saying that it's a shitty car just because (obviously) the M2 is stiffer and has more performance oriented suspension and brakes (as it should) is silly.

I never said it was shitty. I said it was the worst BMW I've ever owned (I am on my 6th), and that is simply the truth.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by BruceM

I'm glad you think the M235i's suspension is "just fine" on the track. Get back to us when you drive an M2 on the same track so you can actually know what you are talking about when you try to compare the two. Stock to stock, the difference is not minor.

Like rich8566 said, he measured the difference (same driver same track) to be 4 seconds, which sounds about right.

That is what I expect the step from an M perf. model to a full on M model to be. Nothing weird at all. None of that makes the M235 a shitty car as you two have been saying.

And yes I said "just fine", I didn't say "amazing" or "perfect" because I have driven dedicated track cars and I know the difference. Thank you very much.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I never said it was shitty. I said it was the worst BMW I've ever owned (I am on my 6th), and that is simply the truth.

That is ridiculous, you will continue to claim that your 328 and your 135 (from your sig) were better cars than your M235??

Come on now... give me a break.

[STK]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Keep telling yourself that - I am sure it will be true at some point.

No need to bring driver skill into it - of course a better driver can outperform a novice one, even in a less capable car.

The point is pretty simple. A good driver will be significantly better at the track in a stock M2 compared to a stock M235/40. A novice driver will not be better because you have to know how to drive before the difference in the suspension/dif/brakes matters.

What's so complicated about that? Think of musical instruments. It takes a great pianist to get the extra performance from a concert Steinway compared to a good but lesser piano. Similarly it takes a trained driver to get more out of a M2 compared to a M235/40.

Once again, there are lots of good reasons to buy either car but the M2 is a less compliant more purpose driven car. It's simply better in the corners for folks that can drive the car nearer to its limits. Why deny that? If you care about lease pricing, availability, more compliant ride for commuting, more options and color choices, and maybe straight line speed get a M240. (I'm sure I'm missing something.) If you car about wide fenders and car show mods, the M2 probably has an advantage.

There are lots of logical AND emotional reasons to choose either one. Too many haters.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Ramos

That is ridiculous, you will continue to claim that your 328 and your 135 (from your sig) were better cars than your M235??

Come on now... give me a break.

Sure am - the N54 135 with the MT especially. Best Bimmer I had until the F80 ZCP I got in March.

Perhaps you are confusing faster (which can be compared objectively) with better (which is absolutely subjective).

[Kid Eh]

If you haven't personally driven both cars your input is pretty much useless. I have driven an M235 maybe a half dozen times. B-roads only. No tracking. My M2 blows it away in every conceivable way. Sorry but that's my opinion and I've only had the car for 5 days.

[arwin]

Originally Posted by Ramos

That is ridiculous, you will continue to claim that your 328 and your 135 (from your sig) were better cars than your M235??

Come on now... give me a break.

I think you guys are all saying the same thing...M240 is a pretty decent car and the M2 is slightly better. That's it.

For some that are saying that the M240 well equipped with mods may be even faster than an M2...some people don't want to be fiddling around with mods and warranty so that may be the reason why they just opt for the M2.

We all have to remember that most of the people who on these forums are more willing to mod their cars whereas most of the population will just buy it stock and leave it like that.

For me, the looks and sound of the M2 made it an easy decision to get the M2 and not even consider a M240. This coming from a Dinan Stage 2 335xi. I simply wanted my car the way I wanted from the factory. The M2 was everything that I was looking for in a car in stock form.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by STK

The point is pretty simple. A good driver will be significantly better at the track in a stock M2 compared to a stock M235/40. A novice driver will not be better because you have to know how to drive before the difference in the suspension/dif/brakes matters.

What's so complicated about that? Think of musical instruments. It takes a great pianist to get the extra performance from a concert Steinway compared to a good but lesser piano. Similarly it takes a trained driver to get more out of a M2 compared to a M235/40.

Once again, there are lots of good reasons to buy either car but the M2 is a less compliant more purpose driven car. It's simply better in the corners for folks that can drive the car nearer to its limits. Why deny that? If you care about lease pricing, availability, more compliant ride for commuting, more options and color choices, and maybe straight line speed get a M240. (I'm sure I'm missing something.) If you car about wide fenders and car show mods, the M2 probably has an advantage.

There are lots of logical AND emotional reasons to choose either one. Too many haters.

That was simply insulting. I have been tracking with the BMW CCA for 10 years, run in the A group and have over 40 track weekends under my belt.
Your comment was completely uncalled for.
I can definitely extract the extra 4 seconds in lap time from the M2 compared to an M235, my point however is that this does NOT make the M235 a shitty car.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Like rich8566 said, he measured the difference (same driver same track) to be 4 seconds, which sounds about right.

That is what I expect the step from an M perf. model to a full on M model to be. Nothing weird at all. None of that makes the M235 a shitty car as you two have been saying.

And yes I said "just fine", I didn't say "amazing" or "perfect" because I have driven dedicated track cars and I know the difference. Thank you very much.

Please quote anything in my posts that said the M235i is shitty. You won't find it. I never said it, and I don't think it--in fact, I said it was "fine" too, although I don't like the marketing decisions like that one that have diluted the M badge. But even though it is fine for what it was meant to be, I do think it is clearly not as good a car as an M2. Four seconds to me is a substantial difference on a 2:20 to 2:30 track. But even putting that aside, you will feel the difference in a variety of different situations, on and off track. I've driven these cars quite a bit, back to back. It's there.

[STK]

Originally Posted by Ramos

That was simply insulting. I have been tracking with the BMW CCA for 10 years, run in the A group and have over 40 track weekends under my belt.
Your comment was completely uncalled for.
I can definitely extract the extra 4 seconds in lap time from the M2 compared to an M235, my point however is that this does NOT make the M235 a shitty car.

Huh? I can only assume you hit reply to the wrong post. My point is that you -- an experienced track driver -- would be faster in a stock M2 than a stock M235. You said as much. My other point was that an inexperienced driver would not be faster because the capabilities of both cars would be well beyond their skill level. I'm frickin' agreeing with you.