[W///]

Originally Posted by G8rGrl

You're killing me! For $10K the answer is kind of obvious. I need to go drive these cars again.

I'm just being honest
Now I can't confirm for sure as we still don't know the US pricing for the M2. The final base MSRP is a big factor for everyone I'm sure, as are the journalist reviews.

[scottomfg]

Originally Posted by M3R1

Great post... I have seen the specs of the M2,3&4 and have also concluded that the specs of the non motor stuff are likely pretty small. You might classify the difference as only a "perceived" difference.

As for the Motor, I might be disappointed with tuning potential of the M2. I would suspect the trap speed of the M2 would be near 110mph and the M3/4 is near 120mph. To me the power of the S55 vs N55 cannot be overlooked...

Yeah, I got to agree. If the M2 weighed a lot less this would be a totally different story, say 250 pounds instead of just 80. Or if it had different, better suspension components. But it doesn't. I think the idea of it being significantly more nimble is just part of the story we are all telling ourselves because that's what we want, but frankly I see little to indicate that will be the case. And I just don't think a 4% difference in wheelbase or total length would be noticeable in a blind test, honestly. I drive a M235i daily, but it never feels 'small' to me, nor does it feel big either, of course. Just feels normal, and I would image I couldn't tell the difference if the only difference was to make the length 4% more. Now, if you add a whole bunch more power and even more torque, I wager I could tell the difference right quick.

At this point it'll be hard to convince me the M2 isn't just a starter M car, where the compromises made were clearly cost vs performance, leaning towards the cost side in almost every decision. Give it the F8X engine, and the same F8X weight-saving bits to get it down to say 3200lbs, then it would likely cost exactly as much as the M3 & M4. Now, *that* is an M2 I'd really have to consider, but I don't think it's gonna exist for a while.

Now, if the top of your budget is an M2, and you are comparing it to a 335i or a M235i, then the M2 starts to looks really nice.

[caycep]

Originally Posted by DDR MFS

Practicality and having driven the car with DCT automatically make me want the F80 in Silverstone.

The pure formula and my fun side want a F87 in manual in LBB.

I have a build slot in for the M2, but we can all get a F80 easily with good rebates.

BMW why?!

What are those in this position thinking? What are your deciding factors? Will you be using the car as a fun DD, track queen or a little bit of both? I am in the latter as it will be my commuter and auto-Xer.

This might be a but I think now that the M2 is out in the open, now is better time to discuss with those debating the four VS two.

And the M4, meh...

the answer obviously is to get both :P

[DDR MFS]

Originally Posted by caycep

the answer obviously is to get both :P

And my reply to you is, "jackass".

[DDR MFS]

So I am heavily on the Team M3 side.

First, I fell in love with the car at the BMW PC. Honestly, I just fell in love with it and the torquey bi-turbo, DCT, four door with the fenders just does it for me. May not be the best option for auto-X, but for my track events (where I felt the car truly shined), it will be ideal. I'll make it work in the tighter X events. I was sold on the DCT with my current "is", but it was IMO perfect with the M3 and the S55.

Second, it will grow as a DD with the needs in the next few years. While the M2 will suffice for the next couple of years, I can see owning either M car for at least five. And it will adapt. Whatever M car I get I want to have for the long term, meaning putting at least 75K on it and possibly rigging car seats in the rear. Yes you can do it in a coupe, but I personally find it easier with the additional doors. I have a 1+ niece and it was pretty easy getting her in my brothers Jeep Altitude (sweet SUV BTW).

Three, I like the way it can be optioned rather than the more locked in equipment that is available for the two. I love getting 18s and cloth. It's just what I want... Silverstone is elegant and flashy in the same taste.

Oh and the side view mirrors, seats, and CF roofing =P

That said, comments or ideas about my proposed F80 build:

Silverstone Exterior (love the blue tint to the silver)
Black Carbonstructure Cloth Interior
18' M wheels (hate having 19s in DC and I felt it retards the performance when driving the car at events)
M Suspension
DCT

Performance add-ons:
Alcantara DCT M Steering Wheel
CF Boot Lip

Either way, one cannot go wrong in my opinion, hence the fussing and a thread as such.

[W///]

Originally Posted by DDR MFS

So I am heavily on the Team M3 side.

First, I fell in love with the car at the BMW PC. Honestly, I just fell in love with it and the torquey bi-turbo, DCT, four door with the fenders just does it for me. May not be the best option for auto-X, but for my track events (where I felt the car truly shined), it will be ideal. I'll make it work in the tighter X events. I was sold on the DCT with my current "is", but it was IMO perfect with the M3 and the S55.

Second, it will grow as a DD with the needs in the next few years. While the M2 will suffice for the next couple of years, I can see owning the M3 for at least five. And it will adapt. I really want to have this car for the long term, meaning putting at least 75K on it and possibly rigging car seats in the rear.

Three, I like the way it can be optioned rather than the more locked in equipment that is available for the two. I love getting 18s and cloth. It's just what I want... Silverstone is elegant and flashy in the same taste.

Oh and the side view mirrors, seats, and CF roofing =P

That said, comments or ideas about my proposed F80 build:

Silverstone Exterior (love the blue tint to the silver)
Black Carbonstructure Cloth Interior
18' M wheels
M Suspension
DCT

Performance add-ons:
Alcantara DCT M Steering Wheel
CF Boot Lip

Either way, one cannot go wrong in my opinion, hence the fussing and a thread as such.

The more time goes by, the more I'm heavily leaning on the F80. As you said, this is a car I can definitely grow into and I would own it for 5+ years. It does everything. Plenty of power, room, looks and cloth seats

The car will be my DD as well, so the space would be welcomed. It also adds to my e36 and e92, whereas I'm not sure the M2 will anymore.

Did you have to order right away? I'm going to wait to see what ZCP adds (might be worth it this time around) as well as give the M2 another chance.

[DDR MFS]

Lol, the night owls are lurking...

Not yet. I am working with two dealers out of the Hampton Roads area. One dealer is the one I purchased my "is" at, and the other is the competitor in the same region.

I bring this up because the DC area offers great immediate USAA discount prices, but the dealerships are slimy. No other way to put it. They use pressure tactics and speak like they are running a penny stock operation. Literally, I was told, "When you are ready to deal, call me", and while I get the waffling on the model (hence the thread), I am a dedicated BMW buyer and don't appreciate it. This coming from a CA who didn't know there was a M2 and I had to reference that it was not a M235i I was looking at. No offense to M235i people, and also, know what your company is pushing if you intend to sell.

The converse side is that the USAA discounts are not nearly as good as where I want to purchase (military and in DC, but want to buy in HR). The CAs in Hampton, Norfolk, VA Beach are so much better (was there previously). No pressure, no gimmicks, etc. I am number one for a M2 at one dealer and number three at the other. With the good USAA deal or the BMWCCA discount, I can get a M3 for minimal hassle. Both are ready to lock in a build for the F80 when I am ready and are just standing by.

So far ZCP goes, the F80 is beastly enough for me. I thought it was perfect frankly (reference the Cayman V Cayman S argument, 981 chassis) and the ZCP, while awesome, is a mute factor for me. There are arguments that the Cayman is perfect as is and the S "increases" are not necessary. Granted you are also comparing, what I believe to be a model option (base/S) vs a factory tune (335i/M3) as well... For the M2, it would be a different story which I guess is indicative of how I feel about the F80 being a near perfect car. The F80 greatly differs from the F30 in core construction and I feel that the F87 doesn't share as many drastic differences from the F20. I look at it in that BMW releases a factory tuned car and believes that it encompasses what it needs to as both a DD and racer. The ZCP/S, whatever, is good but not necessary if the initial release is designed to encompass the original objectives of the M/Zuffhausen/AMG design goal.

So to get back to it, I want to order sooner rather than later, and that is because the allocations at these dealers are a little more limited. I want to lock in something especially with the early turn-in option. I am ready and can responsibly move into an M car. I am thinking that I will lock in something in mid-NOV/early-DEC as the deals will be better given the winter, and I can get a spring BMW PC Delivery in SC which will work out.

The M2 is pushing the urgency, but I think the F80 is the right way to go. I love BMW, and I want to have this M car for a while, ideally, forever. However, I am not going to spend unnecessarily nor am I going to impulsively get one or the other.

Your turn.

[W///]

Originally Posted by DDR MFS

Lol, the night owls are lurking...

Not yet. I am working with two dealers out of the Hampton Roads area. One dealer is the one I purchased my "is" at, and the other is the competitor in the same region.

I bring this up because the DC area offers great immediate USAA discount prices, but the dealerships are slimy. No other way to put it. They use pressure tactics and speak like they are running a penny stock operation. Literally, I was told, "When you are ready to deal, call me", and while I get the waffling on the model (hence the thread), I am a dedicated BMW buyer and don't appreciate it. This coming from a CA who didn't know there was a M2 and I had to reference that it was not a M235i I was looking at. No offense to M235i people, and also, know what your company is pushing if you intend to sell.

The converse side is that the USAA discounts are not nearly as good as where I want to purchase (military and in DC, but want to buy in HR). The CAs in Hampton, Norfolk, VA Beach are so much better (was there previously). No pressure, no gimmicks, etc. I am number one for a M2 at one dealer and number three at the other. With the good USAA deal or the BMWCCA discount, I can get a M3 for minimal hassle. Both are ready to lock in a build for the F80 when I am ready and are just standing by.

So far ZCP goes, the F80 is beastly enough for me. I thought it was perfect frankly (reference the Cayman V Cayman S argument, 981 chassis) and the ZCP, while awesome, is a mute factor for me. There are arguments that the Cayman is perfect as is and the S "increases" are not necessary. Granted you are also comparing, what I believe to be a model option (base/S) vs a factory tune (335i/M3) as well... For the M2, it would be a different story which I guess is indicative of how I feel about the F80 being a near perfect car. The F80 greatly differs from the F30 in core construction and I feel that the F87 doesn't share as many drastic differences from the F20. I look at it in that BMW releases a factory tuned car and believes that it encompasses what it needs to as both a DD and racer. The ZCP/S, whatever, is good but not necessary if the initial release is designed to encompass the original objectives of the M/Zuffhausen/AMG design goal.

So to get back to it, I want to order sooner rather than later, and that is because the allocations at these dealers are a little more limited. I want to lock in something especially with the early turn-in option. I am ready and can responsibly move into an M car. I am thinking that I will lock in something in mid-NOV/early-DEC as the deals will be better given the winter, and I can get a spring BMW PC Delivery in SC which will work out.

The M2 is pushing the urgency, but I think the F80 is the right way to go. I love BMW, and I want to have this M car for a while, ideally, forever. However, I am not going to spend unnecessarily nor am I going to impulsively get one or the other.

Your turn.

The only reason I mention ZCP is because you already want EDC. I actually want passive, but someone looked it up and the ZCP will at the very minimum get different shocks, springs, sway bars and exhaust (not sure if it's the tip, or the baffles that are different).

And if it follows the M5/6, then it might get a small power bump too. All those combined makes for a pretty compelling option.

Either way, I'm set on waiting until the MY17's roll out. But I think you'll be happy with the F80 regardless!

[DDR MFS]

You think the active VS passive that you can option on the current car is worth the additional money? Do you have any link or reference just to see what the ZCP would entail?

Thanks for the information!

[W///]

Originally Posted by DDR MFS

You think the active VS passive that you can option on the current car is worth the additional money? Do you have any link or reference just to see what the ZCP would entail?

Thanks for the information!

For me? No. I plan on keeping the car for a long long time, so the less complicated it is, the better. In the distant future, I'd want to go with a nice set of coilovers. Plus the roads in SC are decent. The ones in DC, probably not so much. However, if they plan on making enough of a difference with the ZCP, then I'd definitely consider it

Here's the link to one of the ZCP threads. Look at page 2 for some info about parts:
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1188233

[DDR MFS]

So ventured to the local dealer and luckily fell in with an enthusiast CA. Explained everything and before I knew it we had keys to a 6MT F80 and a M235i.

Test drove the two first and loved the tight, nimble nature of the car. The N55 scooted the car around perfectly and definitely fit the character of the car. Taking some curvaceous roads was a joy and it was definitely something to marvel at.

However it is definitely small. I know this but it really is small in person which leads me to the back seat and trunk. If I was looking again three years ago when I got my 335is, and could find a 135is, I would have purchased that car then. I could only see back seat riders tolerating the space for a quick pick up and drop off. The cargo space was ample for the car but definitely not suited for needs (military gear, road trips for the more than two people, golf clubs, blah blah blah). While not a deal breaker, the greenhouse felt a little tight too.

On to the F80 which felt much more burly and was definitely a lot of car. Having driven it before in the DCT, I was surprised at how much I liked the 6MT. I loved the feel, visibility and interior layout. Did the back seat test as I did in the two, and it definitely is more room as one would expect. Four doors, split seats and larger boot mean I wouldn't have to play car swap with my wife when family or road trip needs arose.

And while the three has put on size, I still love the feel and the responsiveness that I recall falling for at the PC M school. The looks are menacing and the design practical.

So, I left my name, configured my build and come December, will be allocated for a F80 pending we can get the numbers to work.

I definitely do not feel like I am compromising and my wife is happy either way in that we get something I want and that fits our needs. Brute power, BMW handling, classic sports car styling options (18 and carbon cloth) and daily utility all create for the perfect BMW experience. Can run the errands during the weekday and shred the track on the weekend.

Tough decision but you can't lose with either car. Granted I took out the M235i, but if it was that fun, I can only imagine pure M experience.

Test drive what you can and see them in person as was mentioned. Fully throttled knowing I will have a F80 in the next five months.

[W///]

Originally Posted by DDR MFS

So ventured to the local dealer and luckily fell in with an enthusiast CA. Explained everything and before I knew it we had keys to a 6MT F80 and a M235i.

Test drove the two first and loved the tight, nimble nature of the car. The N55 scooted the car around perfectly and definitely fit the character of the car. Taking some curvaceous roads was a joy and it was definitely something to marvel at.

However it is definitely small. I know this but it really is small in person which leads me to the back seat and trunk. If I was looking again three years ago when I got my 335is, and could find a 135is, I would have purchased that car then. I could only see back seat riders tolerating the space for a quick pick up and drop off. The cargo space was ample for the car but definitely not suited for needs (military gear, road trips for the more than two people, golf clubs, blah blah blah). While not a deal breaker, the greenhouse felt a little tight too.

On to the F80 which felt much more burly and was definitely a lot of car. Having driven it before in the DCT, I was surprised at how much I liked the 6MT. I loved the feel, visibility and interior layout. Did the back seat test as I did in the two, and it definitely is more room as one would expect. Four doors, split seats and larger boot mean I wouldn't have to play car swap with my wife when family or road trip needs arose.

And while the three has put on size, I still love the feel and the responsiveness that I recall falling for at the PC M school. The looks are menacing and the design practical.

So, I left my name, configured my build and come December, will be allocated for a F80 pending we can get the numbers to work.

I definitely do not feel like I am compromising and my wife is happy either way in that we get something I want and that fits our needs. Brute power, BMW handling, classic sports car styling options (18 and carbon cloth) and daily utility all create for the perfect BMW experience. Can run the errands during the weekday and shred the track on the weekend.

Tough decision but you can't lose with either car. Granted I took out the M235i, but if it was that fun, I can only imagine pure M experience.

Test drive what you can and see them in person as was mentioned. Fully throttled knowing I will have a F80 in the next five months.

Big congrats! I agree with everything you say. I still have about a year to go before I can order the M3 if I went that route. You really can't go wrong with either the M2 or M3/4, just have to decide what works for you.

I just think the F80 works better for me with what I have. I drove the E36 to work and I REALLY don't want to let this thing go for an M2.

[DDR MFS]

Originally Posted by W///

Big congrats! I agree with everything you say. I still have about a year to go before I can order the M3 if I went that route. You really can't go wrong with either the M2 or M3/4, just have to decide what works for you.

I just think the F80 works better for me with what I have. I drove the E36 to work and I REALLY don't want to let this thing go for an M2.

Spot should become available 02NOV when the build numbers come out. I also need to ensure that the iS remains eligible for the three month early turn in.

Super stoked but have yet to touch numbers...

[Hazey82]

This may help others but for my own sanity this is what I came up with

M2

Negatives (in order)
Seats
No M Mirrors
M buttons
Weight
No CF Roof
No Power Dome
Notes: Has been restricted by M division

Positives
Sounds better than F80/F82
Footprint/Tossable, Coupe (Back to old school M3 size e.g E46)
Price
Road Presence
Last small size manual non Hybrid M car??
Notes: Can change seats, Mirrors, Add CF Roof or wrap

M3
Negatives(in order)
Size/Footprint/Playfulness??
Exhaust Sound (replacing exhaust is $$ and I don’t think it does much)
Price

Positives
Bespoke Engine (beast)
Seats / Interior
CF Roof and other CF bits
Mirrors
Weight reduction
Power Dome
M3 badge
M buttons
Road Presence
Last manual non Hybrid M car??
Notes: All the bits, M gave it everything

In conclusion it comes down to at the end of the 5 years do I want

M2) Smaller 2 door Manual M car that will retire to become the weekend toy and have a separate family car. Last small sized playful coupe manual M car?? Has hints of E30, E46. Desirable in 5-10yrs +

M3) Practical full M car covers family and play duties. Last manual M car?? Desirable in 5-10yrs +

Option of leasing M2 for 3 years and then making the switch to M3 on a 5 year lease is too much money to blow over 7 years.
I'm leaning toward the F80 and will take one for a good drive around some twisties to see if the size is really a issue

Note: Price difference between the M2 and M3 in Aus will be about 20-30K The M3 comes pretty loaded here in Australia I'm going to guess its like a $75-80K loaded US car.

Now if only I could afford to keep my E46 M3 while getting the F80 that would be perfect as it covers both options.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Hazey82

This may help others but for my own sanity this is what I came up with

M2

Negatives (in order)
Seats
No M Mirrors
M buttons
Weight
No CF Roof
No Power Dome
Notes: Has been restricted by M division

Positives
Sounds better than F80/F82
Footprint/Tossable, Coupe (Back to old school M3 size e.g E46)
Price
Road Presence
Last small size manual non Hybrid M car??
Notes: Can change seats, Mirrors, Add CF Roof or wrap

M3
Negatives(in order)
Size/Footprint/Playfulness??
Exhaust Sound (replacing exhaust is $$ and I don’t think it does much)
Price

Positives
Bespoke Engine (beast)
Seats / Interior
CF Roof and other CF bits
Mirrors
Weight reduction
Power Dome
M3 badge
M buttons
Road Presence
Last manual non Hybrid M car??
Notes: All the bits, M gave it everything

In conclusion it comes down to at the end of the 5 years do I want

M2) Smaller 2 door Manual M car that will retire to become the weekend toy and have a separate family car. Last small sized playful coupe manual M car?? Has hints of E30, E46. Desirable in 5-10yrs +

M3) Practical full M car covers family and play duties. Last manual M car?? Desirable in 5-10yrs +

Option of leasing M2 for 3 years and then making the switch to M3 on a 5 year lease is too much money to blow over 7 years.
I'm leaning toward the F80 and will take one for a good drive around some twisties to see if the size is really a issue

Note: Price difference between the M2 and M3 in Aus will be about 20-30K The M3 comes pretty loaded here in Australia I'm going to guess its like a $75-80K loaded US car.

Now if only I could afford to keep my E46 M3 while getting the F80 that would be perfect as it covers both options.

I personally would go the other direction. Lease the M3 for 3 years, then get an M2 if you think it'll be worth it. That way, you'll be able to get not only an M2 with LCI, but probably have more leverage to work out a deal by then.

That's what I plan to do. If the M2 is not as amazing as we all think, I'll buy the leased M3 at the end of the 3 years.

And in your case, I'd definitely do E46+F80 combo. Add, not replace

[gthal]

There is zero doubt the M3/4 is the better car.

I own an M4 today (I'm a coupe fan, period). I'm selling my M4 to buy the M2 not because it is a better car (it won't be) but because it is a different car and will provide a different experience. Different may be better or worse but it will be fun nonetheless.

To me, cars are all about the experience. I will track it extensively (like I do with my M4), keep it for 2 years and then get something else to experience... maybe another M4, maybe another M2, maybe something different all together. There are very few things more enjoyable than talking about, thinking about and driving the piss out of fast, fun cars

[W///]

Originally Posted by gthal

There is zero doubt the M3/4 is the better car.

I own an M4 today (I'm a coupe fan, period). I'm selling my M4 to buy the M2 not because it is a better car (it won't be) but because it is a different car and will provide a different experience. Different may be better or worse but it will be fun nonetheless.

To me, cars are all about the experience. I will track it extensively (like I do with my M4), keep it for 2 years and then get something else to experience... maybe another M4, maybe another M2, maybe something different all together. There are very few things more enjoyable than talking about, thinking about and driving the piss out of fast, fun cars

I could learn a few things or 2 from you I'm also all about the experiences. That's why I went completely a different direction from wanting an M2 to an M3 all of a sudden. I think the F80 will be more different than the E36 and E92 compared to the M2. I'm all about variety.

Having said that, I also don't know how to let go and get attached to these stupid machines. But until I'm forced to do it differently, I'll enjoy the hell out of it too

I honestly wouldn't want to bet on what you get next. You've been all over the spectrum.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by W///

....I honestly wouldn't want to bet on what you get next. You've been all over the spectrum.

True... I tend to bounce all around I liked them all... although the C63 was my least favourite (still loved it but just not as much as the others).

[Flash007]

Originally Posted by HeelToe

My guess is that the m3 or m4 will out perform the m2 on most tracks because of its power advantage. The m2 may out perform on others. Shorter tight tracks will tend to favor the m2. Larger tracks will tend to favor the m3. Which one 'wins'? Who knows. I do expect though that the m2 will outmaneuver the m3 simply due to its size. I would expect that it will out perform the m3 at auto cross. Several 135s killed the m3s and m4s at the auto cross.

If autocross is I think it is, its mostly about the driver anyway.

i cant think of any exercise where the M3 is not faster than the M2 unless maybe a pure slalom exercise. Given the same driver offcourse.
But the M2 may feel faster and more fun. The weight differense is so small you need to be very skilled to notice the differense.
Its only 3 reassons that make me take the M2 over the M3.
its cheaper, smaller and will probably keep its value better. At least in my part of the world.

[DDR MFS]

Originally Posted by Flash007

If autocross is I think it is, its mostly about the driver anyway.

i cant think of any exercise where the M3 is not faster than the M2 unless maybe a pure slalom exercise. Given the same driver offcourse.
But the M2 may feel faster and more fun. The weight differense is so small you need to be very skilled to notice the differense.
Its only 3 reassons that make me take the M2 over the M3.
its cheaper, smaller and will probably keep its value better. At least in my part of the world.

Yeh the small size is attractive for zipping through a city. We live in a densely packed urban area, and the M2 would surely open up more street parking opportunities. I have garage parking at our place, but I am willing to pay for parking with the M3

I think resale on either should be pretty solid so long as the condition of the car is sound. This is pure speculation but depending on the next iteration, it could shift the resale either way if the next evolution of M goes electric, hybrid, etc...

[W///]

Originally Posted by DDR MFS

Yeh the small size is attractive for zipping through a city. We live in a densely packed urban area, and the M2 would surely open up more street parking opportunities. I have garage parking at our place, but I am willing to pay for parking with the M3

I think resale on either should be pretty solid so long as the condition of the car is sound. This is pure speculation but depending on the next iteration, it could shift the resale either way if the next evolution of M goes electric, hybrid, etc...

Hell, the fact that you are getting cloth seats will increase the value in the distant future

[G8rGrl]

The M3 is better than the M2. Period. BUT...I see the M2 as a car I would buy, pay off, and keep for 15 years as a "small fun second car". I don't ever see myself keeping the M3 as a "fun second car". I would buy it, love it for 3-4 years, then trade it for the next "best" car within my budget.